Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #68 *Appeal Verdict*

[Paul Connelly]

....the problem with the SCA verdict is quite simply that the evidence, proof and sentence haven't been resolved leaving the feeling of something missing......it seems like only half a jobs been done, not at all what i had expected from a court of that statue......

I know it's frustrating and I feel the same but perhaps for different reasons?

This is an imperfect temporal decision that is not true justice but it's the best we've got in light of Pistorius' refusal to take the Court into his confidence fully because he is scared of the consequences.

The SCA have ensured no individual can murder someone with impunity and get off with culpable homicide and that's a good thing. If it is imperfect as a judgement in the manner you highlighted and I'm not suggesting it is, that is only down to the refusal of Pistorius to speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth and Judge Masipa's erroneous judgment. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

 

[mrjitty]

when looking at the chronology of events, and when looking for the truth… what is your opinion on the issues surrounding pistorius’ phone:

[a] it being removed from the crime scene, and
the fact that it was wiped?

do these actions fit badly with any man accused of a crime, but with nothing to hide?

and so then, specifically in this case, do these actions fit badly with a man who insists he is not guilty of murder. who also wants us to believe his story is the truth.

He was scared for his life!

 

[Colin de France]

I know it's frustrating and I feel the same but perhaps for different reasons?

This is an imperfect temporal decision that is not true justice but it's the best we've got in light of Pistorius' refusal to take the Court into his confidence fully because he is scared of the consequences.

The SCA have ensured no individual can murder someone with impunity and get off with culpable homicide and that's a good thing. If it is imperfect as a judgement in the manner you highlighted and I'm not suggesting it is, that is only down to the refusal of Pistorius to speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth and Judge Masipa's erroneous judgment. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

....of course...the reason why i prefer a re-trial...to have another go at getting him stuck with the evidence and this time really pushing the evidence which i feel has not been exploited as far as it could have....i have constantly made mention of how disappointed i am with Nel's presentation .....

 

[Paul Connelly]

....of course...the reason why i prefer a re-trial...to have another go at getting him stuck with the evidence and this time really pushing the evidence which i feel has not been exploited as far as it could have....i have constantly made mention of how disappointed i am with Nel's presentation .....

Me too! But it would be more of the same I fear. He's pathologically incapable of taking the blame for anything. He has the finest legal team behind him ensuring the truth stays hidden.

I've said before that Nel did well to tie him in knots and get him to say he had no intention to shoot anybody thus securing at least Dolus Eventualis.

If the trail had take place here in the UK before a jury of his peers Oscar would be doing life for murder. Nel had a much tougher ask before the judge and assessors. I suspect that had he been before Justice Leach he'd have been home and hosed with Dolus Directus. As it was the SCA were restricted in what they could do.

You are right though, it doesn't sit well at all.

 

[Noisy Fan]

when looking at the chronology of events, and when looking for the truth… what is your opinion on the issues surrounding pistorius’ phone:

[a] it being removed from the crime scene, and
the fact that it was wiped?

do these actions fit badly with any man accused of a crime, but with nothing to hide?

and so then, specifically in this case, do these actions fit badly with a man who insists he is not guilty of murder. who also wants us to believe his story is the truth.

There is a lingering bad taste in my mouth concerning what went on but where is the hammer from the prosecution that would convince that something heinous was done? I mean really, they tried the case and I know they flew here and there to get phones unlocked and I listened day after day and there was no great prize for them. Did I miss a bombshell by the prosecution on this?

I read somewhere they made a deal with the defense to not pursue this ... ??

 

[mhiforme]

Kevin Lerena interview

<snipped for brevity>

'I know that his religion has now become very important to him, I hope it pulls him through this.’
As OP said during the trial, “I was crying out for the Lord to help me”. To help him, not Reeva.
I screamed, ‘Help! Help! Help!’ I screamed for somebody to help me. To help him, not Reeva.
Oh, wait, OP is the victim. Barry Roux told us so.

<snipped for brevity>

Apologies for the length. I've been stewing over this since I first read the article.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...just-days-convicted-murder.html#ixzz3tMIX8zHf

Common sense would dictate that God would have to perform a miracle if God was to directly help Reeva as she was unconscious.

On the other hand, if God were to help Oscar, God would be helping Reeva through Oscar's hands. I don't see anything wrong with Oscar asking God for help, when people of faith have problems, they commonly turn to the lord for help and guidance.

 

[Tortoise]

There is a lingering bad taste in my mouth concerning what went on but where is the hammer from the prosecution that would convince that something heinous was done? I mean really, they tried the case and I know they flew here and there to get phones unlocked and I listened day after day and there was no great prize for them. Did I miss a bombshell by the prosecution on this?

I read somewhere they made a deal with the defense to not pursue this ... ??

It must be that on shots first, then following - a retreat to the bedroom, a search of the room in the dark, a return to open the door, a return to get prostheses on and get cricket bat and going on the balcony, another return and breaking down the door...Reeva would long since have taken her last breaths. And after phone calls were made, would not have left arterial spray on the walls outside the bedroom.

Shots last, and the blood curdling screams in fear for her life being Reeva. I won't accept that there is any way on earth Berger and Johnson heard the cricket bat, particularly with the pause heard and Mangena's evidence.

 

[mhiforme]

BIB above: This said it all for me... after a lengthy trial, after nearly a year in prison, he still thinks his "friends" should perjure themselves in front of God and the world to lie for him. It's unbelievable.

Poor Kevin Lerena probably does not realize Oscar has always viewed him as just a hanger-on and was more valuable as a "patsy" than a friend. What kind of friend asks you to lie for him, or in the case of his other friend, Darren Fresco, take the rap for a crime?

BIB I guess this is a the circle of friends Oscar hung out with. Many would in your words, "lie for him." Even Reeva herself hid the text message from the police where Oscar admitted it was him that was responsible for the Tasha shooting. I don't have the exact quote in front of me but it was something along the lines of "don't tell anyone but it's all taken care of, Darren has taken the wrap".

 

[Colin de France]

There is a lingering bad taste in my mouth concerning what went on but where is the hammer from the prosecution that would convince that something heinous was done? I mean really, they tried the case and I know they flew here and there to get phones unlocked and I listened day after day and there was no great prize for them. Did I miss a bombshell by the prosecution on this?

I read somewhere they made a deal with the defense to not pursue this ... ??

......amongst other things, what seems to practically scream out from Pistorius's version is that whilst still in the bedroom he heard a noise in the bathroom, surely his reaction would of been to have asked Reeva if she had heard it too ....seems such a natural almost automatic thing to do.....

 

[Marfa Lights]

BIB I guess this is a the circle of friends Oscar hung out with. Many would in your words, "lie for him." Even Reeva herself hid the text message from the police where Oscar admitted it was him that was responsible for the Tasha shooting. I don't have the exact quote in front of me but it was something along the lines of "don't tell anyone but it's all taken care of, Darren has taken the wrap".

You make it sound like Reeva should have turned in her new boyfriend for an event she did not even witness. Perhaps Oscar should be held accountable for making his new girlfriend complicit in his deception.

 

[Marfa Lights]

It must be that on shots first, then following - a retreat to the bedroom, a search of the room in the dark, a return to open the door, a return to get prostheses on and get cricket bat and going on the balcony, another return and breaking down the door...Reeva would long since have taken her last breaths. And after phone calls were made, would not have left arterial spray on the walls outside the bedroom.

Shots last, and the blood curdling screams in fear for her life being Reeva. I won't accept that there is any way on earth Berger and Johnson heard the cricket bat, particularly with the pause heard and Mangena's evidence.

Too bad Nel could not sum up the case with such obvious logic. Masipa needed it wrapped up with a bow on it the way Roux presented her with his version of the timeline. I thought Nel was great most of the time, given what he had to work with, but his summation was very weak IMO.

 

[Marfa Lights]

Common sense would dictate that God would have to perform a miracle if God was to directly help Reeva as she was unconscious.

On the other hand, if God were to help Oscar, God would be helping Reeva through Oscar's hands. I don't see anything wrong with Oscar asking God for help, when people of faith have problems, they commonly turn to the lord for help and guidance.

Saint Oscar?

 

[Noisy Fan]

It must be that on shots first, then following - a retreat to the bedroom, a search of the room in the dark, a return to open the door, a return to get prostheses on and get cricket bat and going on the balcony, another return and breaking down the door...Reeva would long since have taken her last breaths. And after phone calls were made, would not have left arterial spray on the walls outside the bedroom.

Shots last, and the blood curdling screams in fear for her life being Reeva. I won't accept that there is any way on earth Berger and Johnson heard the cricket bat, particularly with the pause heard and Mangena's evidence.

Howdy,

I might be wrong but I thought I read that the splatter was not arterial spray but just residual blood flung off while carrying Reeva downstairs. Sorry if I am wrong but that is what I remember reading ...

The crack through the bullet hole seems to be a problem for the shots last model unless he got lucky.

Also the pause heard ... The defense testimony is that the first time Oscar swung at the door he missed and hit the door jam. He re-positioned and swung again. There was a pause between the first strike and the last strikes. The witnesses heard a pause in what they heard as shots.

I don't recall the prosecution re-creating the cricket bat strikes for the purpose of determining whether they could be heard or not. It seems like the model could be tested. Wait for a night with a similar temperature and at around 3 in the morning with the bathroom window open have someone hit the door a few good whacks and have people where the ear witnesses were. If the strikes were audible or not would clear up this point.

Some tests were done by the defense but not from the home with the bat unless I am mistaken ...

 

[sleuth-d-]

There is a lingering bad taste in my mouth concerning what went on but where is the hammer from the prosecution that would convince that something heinous was done? I mean really, they tried the case and I know they flew here and there to get phones unlocked and I listened day after day and there was no great prize for them. Did I miss a bombshell by the prosecution on this?

I read somewhere they made a deal with the defense to not pursue this ... ??

ty for the reply and your opinion on the missing/returned phone.

i am trying to think of such actions in terms of a lingering bad taste in my mouth... for me it is more an imaginary line in the sand we all have - honest and truthful actions on one side., etc etc. the phone is one area where pistorius clearly crossed the point where i draw that line. clearly his own line in the sand is drawn further up in the dunes.

it is a personal reading of situations placed in front of us that we all make. it has nothing to do with behind the scenes pt/dt deals or what was revealed/allowed in the courtroom imo.

 

[Noisy Fan]

......amongst other things, what seems to practically scream out from Pistorius's version is that whilst still in the bedroom he heard a noise in the bathroom, surely his reaction would of been to have asked Reeva if she had heard it too ....seems such a natural almost automatic thing to do.....

From personal experience in adrenalized situations there is a focus that is all consuming. You do not get to choose. It is an auto pilot response that can save lives. It allows mothers to lift cars off of their injured child or a fireman to carry 3 times his weight out of a burning building. Ask the mother if she was aware of anything around her.

It doesn't happen all the time but when it does it is pretty amazing. I know this sounds strange ... until you find yourself in that situation and the you go "Wow!" "What just happened?"

You have never gone through this?

We have a sub conscience mind that looks after most bodily things without us having to actually choose our heart to beat or choose to breathe and in times of necessity that sub conscience takes over and can protect us or at least tries to.

It releases chemicals that directs blood flow to the muscles to give us superior strength. It blocks pain. It locks us on the important task at hand. Time slows (seemingly) ...

What seems really strange to me is that in this modern time when we know medically what is going on, the courts seem to have a hard time or at least are selective in incorporating this phenomenon as a normal human response.

 

[Tortoise]

Howdy,

I might be wrong but I thought I read that the splatter was not arterial spray but just residual blood flung off while carrying Reeva downstairs. Sorry if I am wrong but that is what I remember reading ...

The crack through the bullet hole seems to be a problem for the shots last model unless he got lucky.

Also the pause heard ... The defense testimony is that the first time Oscar swung at the door he missed and hit the door jam. He re-positioned and swung again. There was a pause between the first strike and the last strikes. The witnesses heard a pause in what they heard as shots.

I don't recall the prosecution re-creating the cricket bat strikes for the purpose of determining whether they could be heard or not. It seems like the model could be tested. Wait for a night with a similar temperature and at around 3 in the morning with the bathroom window open have someone hit the door a few good whacks and have people where the ear witnesses were. If the strikes were audible or not would clear up this point.

Some tests were done by the defense but not from the home with the bat unless I am mistaken ...

Van der Nest's report was definitive on the matter - he described arterial blood spatter on the walls near the open part of the upper staircase. Other marks were drips cast from Reeva's hair.

It isn't possible that the shots were first with the extra time delay, it's only just about possible with the later shots.

It's almost funny that Pistorius put in a pause with the bat strikes, trying to cover all eventualities of what witnesses heard. Just because he claims to have missed the door first time doesn't mean there would have been a pause in the sequence.

The crack through the bullet hole isn't an impossibility, considering that he did rip out the panels after the shooting.

 

[Hazy]

Howdy,


Also the pause heard ... The defense testimony is that the first time Oscar swung at the door he missed and hit the door jam. He re-positioned and swung again. There was a pause between the first strike and the last strikes. The witnesses heard a pause in what they heard as shots.

Yes. You're right the defence did say this. Is it the truth though? Bearing in mind they had spoken to and seen all witness statements?

Not so hard to say that when you know exactly what the witnesses are going to say.

 

[Marfa Lights]

Van der Nest's report was definitive on the matter - he described arterial blood spatter on the walls near the open part of the upper staircase. Other marks were drips cast from Reeva's hair.

It isn't possible that the shots were first with the extra time delay, it's only just about possible with the later shots.

It's almost funny that Pistorius put in a pause with the bat strikes, trying to cover all eventualities of what witnesses heard. Just because he claims to have missed the door first time doesn't mean there would have been a pause in the sequence.

The crack through the bullet hole isn't an impossibility, considering that he did rip out the panels after the shooting.

Also, it's hard to imagine the second and third (fourth?) bat strikes being as rapid fire as shots 2,3 and 4.

 

[Noisy Fan]

ty for the reply and your opinion on the missing/returned phone.

i am trying to think of such actions in terms of a lingering bad taste in my mouth... for me it is more an imaginary line in the sand we all have - honest and truthful actions on one side., etc etc. the phone is one area where pistorius clearly crossed the point where i draw that line. clearly his own line in the sand is drawn further up in the dunes.

it is a personal reading of situations placed in front of us that we all make. it has nothing to do with behind the scenes pt/dt deals or what was revealed/allowed in the courtroom imo.

I hear you.

He crossed my line as well. I would have no problem locking him and his brother in jail for doing it. My problem is the prosecution, who most likely (I hope) know the details better than both of us chose to deal the matter away.

 

[Marfa Lights]

I hear you.

He crossed my line as well. I would have no problem locking him and his brother in jail for doing it. My problem is the prosecution, who most likely (I hope) know the details better than both of us chose to deal the matter away.

It is hard to imagine how that went down. We were lead to believe that Hilton Botha had so compromised the State's case that Nel had to negotiate his way out of that situation and Carl was the beneficiary.