Out of place items in Ramsey home

[Frigga]

^ This is why the Ramseys and their handlers (including Lou Smit, I suppose) love to posit the theory of someone spending HOURS in the house while the Ramseys were gone that evening- early evening. The ridiculousness of it I won't go in to, but that is why. The house was SO confusing... so many odd things and idiosyncrasies, not to mention that most children (college and younger) aren't in school, more people aren't working that day than are, and the chances that someone would have seen someone illegally entering the home were GREAT. It gets dark early in Boulder at that time of year and after dark an intruder would have had to have had a light source. I don't believe it for one minute!

 

[bettybaby00]

No it wouldn't. Not if it's a standard sliding lock. The hasp is usually notched as in this picture:

The notches are probably on these kinds of locks because they'd be easier to jimmy open (by someone trying to get in from outside) if the sliding part of the lock moved smoothly back and forth.



True, it isn't usual. But FWIW, two doors in two different places I've lived in (both in older houses) had/have this kind of lock, also placed vertically, in a similar spot -- vertically above the door, and left of center. One is on the door to my balcony currently. In the other house where I lived, the lock was painted white like the moulding around the door (as the lock in the picture appears to be). It may not have been used in a long time, but still, it was installed at some point and it still worked. It's possible the Ramseys didn't even install that lock and it was there when they moved in, as both of them were in my case.

I am RDI, leaning towards PDI. But I believe we should be accurate about every detail.

All that said, two things are chilling to me -- that the golf clubs were so close to the WC (weren't the golf clubs one of the items removed from the house very quickly?), and that the door was latched. I didn't know these details before.

Even supposing he noticed the lock at all, a killer would not latch it to buy time; it was the Ramseys' house and they would know about the lock. It would buy no time whatsoever. And if the killer entered/exited through that window he obviously couldn't have locked it behind himself.

I believe someone locked it from sheer habit, unconsciously, upon leaving the room. We all do things like that, especially if preoccupied and/or in a hurry. We run on autopilot and do things we don't have a conscious memory of doing -- turning off a burner, etc.

Also, can anyone tell me if there was a table in the WC? If not, I don't buy that PR wrapped presents down there. She'd have to sit on the floor. Look at the rest of the house -- imagine how dirty the floor probably was. It was a big house. She couldn't take the presents into any other room and lock the door?

Does anyone know if the WC door locked from the inside? If not, again it makes no sense. Curious kids could follow her down there and just walk in. "Whatcha doing, Mom?"

I'm curious what the IDIs think about the latched door, and what explanation they think there could be for it.

Agree with the points you bring up regarding an intruder knowing about, finding and using the the lock on the WC door. However I'm confused. The pic you posted is not representative of that door's lock.

My understanding is it's a wooden block on a nail or screw that is simply turned to latch and unlatch. That's why OTG brings up the gravity concept.

Eta:

From Forein Faction:

While French remained with the parents, Reichenbach conducted an interior inspection of all three floors of the home, including the basement, and he did not notice any credible point of entry that drew his attention. He noted that at the far end of the basement was a white door secured at the top by a block of wood that pivoted on a screw. Reichenbach tried to open the door, but stopped when it was apparent that it would not have been either a point of entry or exit from the home.

 

[DeDee]

See here: http://tinyurl.com/pfgs82k
...

AK

Thank you for posting this link as it carried me to several great posts of yours regarding the movie themes. Your work on the RN and tying it to lines/scenes in movies is commendable.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

Agree with the points you bring up regarding an intruder knowing about, finding and using the the lock on the WC door. However I'm confused. The pic you posted is not representative of that door's lock.

My understanding is it's a wooden block on a nail or screw that is simply turned to latch and unlatch. That's why OTG brings up the gravity concept.

Thank you so much for this quote! I have also seen doors like that (wooden block that pivoted on a screw).

It looked like a slender, standard sliding bolt lock to me in the photos, possibly painted white like the door, but it's possible I just haven't seen a big enough photo. The one I saw wasn't all that large. Does anyone have a large one?

I'm not sure how gravity would render a wooden-block-on-a-screw lock inoperable, though -- otherwise there'd be no point to the position of the lock; it'd be useless. In which case how could it prevent a cop from opening the door??

I really had the impression the person who talked about gravity was talking about a sliding lock, though. A wooden block latch would have gravity working in its favor (the long end being heavier).

P.S. It's funny, I was thinking that the vertically positioned sliding metal bolt lock was at two prior apartments of mine... it took me like a half hour to remember there's one in the house I now live in, too! I edited my post to say so once I remembered it.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

From Foreign Faction:

He noted that at the far end of the basement was a white door secured at the top by a block of wood that pivoted on a screw. Reichenbach tried to open the door, but stopped when it was apparent that it would not have been either a point of entry or exit from the home.

I take it Reichenbach is LE? If so, that is insane. Parents murder their children. A 100% search of the house was the first thing they should have done. Not a 95% search of the house. WTH.

So where did the story come from, then, about the person who tried to open the door but didn't even notice the latch, and thought the door was stuck? (Not that THAT should have been a reason to dismiss that room either.)

 

[bettybaby00]

Thank you so much for this quote! I have also seen doors like that (wooden block that pivoted on a screw).

It looked like a slender, standard sliding bolt lock to me in the photos, possibly painted white like the door, but it's possible I just haven't seen a big enough photo. The one I saw wasn't all that large. Does anyone have a large one?

I'm not sure how gravity would render a wooden-block-on-a-screw lock inoperable, though -- otherwise there'd be no point to the position of the lock; it'd be useless. In which case how could it prevent a cop from opening the door??

I really had the impression the person who talked about gravity was talking about a sliding lock, though. A wooden block latch would have gravity working in its favor (the long end being heavier).

P.S. It's funny, I was thinking that the vertically positioned sliding metal bolt lock was at two prior apartments of mine... it took me like a half hour to remember there's one in the house I now live in, too! I edited my post to say so once I remembered it.

Yes, he was a cop who was assigned to search for a point of entry. Although a major mistake, that he didn't open the door, I can see how his line of thinking was, well the door is locked....an intruder couldn't have exited through the room b/c he wouldn't have been able to "close" the latch and re lock the door from the other side. Of course he should have opened it anyway....I
I'm a little confused??? I'm not sure what you mean by inoperable? I think it's implied that the cop didn't notice the latch at first (not your first instinct to look up to see if there is a lock) and when he found he couldn't open the door, he then noticed the closed latch at the top. Again, even though he was correct in realizing no one could have gone through that door, and then relocked it from the inside, he still should have looked into the room.

Although now that I think about it, JR does states in one of his interviews that the intruder was "clever," in that he was able go through the train room door, and place a chair in front of it after closing the door behind him: :lol:

Continuation of District Attorney’s Office Interview: June 24, 1998

-Detective Lou Smit and John Ramsey review photograph #71, which depicts the entryway to the Train Room:

John Ramsey: ‘What is different, the door is blocked only by this drum table. Here’s the chair I said was blocking the door…I moved the chair to get into the door.’ ‘When I went down, that chair was kind of blocking that entrance right there [Train Room door]. ‘There was something else on the other side...but all I had to do was move that chair and I walked into the room.’

Lou Smit: “So do you think that the chair would block the door in an attempt that nobody would have gotten in there without moving it?”

John Ramsey: “Correct.” Lou Smit: “In other words, let’s say that the intruder goes into the Train Room and gets out, let’s say, that window…would he get that chair to block the door…”

John Ramsey: “I go down…I moved that chair and went in the room.”

Lou Smit: “So you couldn’t have gotten in without moving the chair?”

John Ramsey: “Correct."

Lou Smit: “I’m trying to figure out, if an intruder went through the door, he’d almost have had to pull the chair behind him...that would have been his exit.”

John Ramsey: “Yeah, it was blocked. He had to move something to get in the room.”

Lou Smit: “And he would have had to have moved it back, if he was in there, to get out.”

John Ramsey: “Yeah.”

Lou Smit: “So that’s not very logical in terms of doing that.”

John Ramsey: “Yeah, I think it is, if this person is bizarrely clever to have not left any good evidence, yet left all these funny clues around, they certainly are clever enough to pull the chair back when they left.”

Foreign Faction

 

[otg]

No it wouldn't. Not if it's a standard sliding lock. The hasp is usually notched as in this picture:

The notches are probably on these kinds of locks because they'd be easier to jimmy open (by someone trying to get in from outside) if the sliding part of the lock moved smoothly back and forth.



True, it isn't usual. But FWIW, two doors in two different places I've lived in (both in older houses) had/have this kind of lock, also placed vertically, in a similar spot -- vertically above the door, and left of center. One is on the door to my balcony currently. In the other house where I lived, the lock was painted white like the moulding around the door (as the lock in the picture appears to be). It may not have been used in a long time, but still, it was installed at some point and it still worked. It's possible the Ramseys didn't even install that lock and it was there when they moved in, as both of them were in my case.

I am RDI, leaning towards PDI. But I believe we should be accurate about every detail.

All that said, two things are chilling to me -- that the golf clubs were so close to the WC (weren't the golf clubs one of the items removed from the house very quickly?), and that the door was latched. I didn't know these details before.

Even supposing he noticed the lock at all, a killer would not latch it to buy time; it was the Ramseys' house and they would know about the lock. It would buy no time whatsoever. And if the killer entered/exited through that window he obviously couldn't have locked it behind himself.

I believe someone locked it from sheer habit, unconsciously, upon leaving the room. We all do things like that, especially if preoccupied and/or in a hurry. We run on autopilot and do things we don't have a conscious memory of doing -- turning off a burner, etc.

Also, can anyone tell me if there was a table in the WC? If not, I don't buy that PR wrapped presents down there. She'd have to sit on the floor. Look at the rest of the house -- imagine how dirty the floor probably was. It was a big house. She couldn't take the presents into any other room and lock the door?

Does anyone know if the WC door locked from the inside? If not, again it makes no sense. Curious kids could follow her down there and just walk in. "Whatcha doing, Mom?"

I'm curious what the IDIs think about the latched door, and what explanation they think there could be for it.

Oh my goodness, Shamus. You dug up a post of mine from when I first joined WS (and before I had discovered the case files at FFJ). When I discovered the picture linked in that post, I saw for the first time what had only been referred to in reports as a “latch” that had kept the responding officer from being able to open the door. It appeared to me (at that time) to be the type of metal latch that you posted. Bettybaby is correct that it was a wooden latch -- I was wrong in 2010. I discovered later that I was wrong, but I didn’t bother going back to correct that old post. Mea culpa.

Below are the two references to the “latch” from the case files at FFJ (which I discovered later). John describes it as a “wooden block”. [You might notice a slight discrepancy in the two versions.]

Patsy Ramsey BPD Interview - April 30, 1997:

TT: Okay. Um, that, that cellar door, that peg on that, does that have to be down to keep that door closed?
PR: Uh, well, no it will close. It, you know, it kind of sort of sticks on the carpet a little bit.
TT: Um hum.
PR: I mean, it will close, but that kind of I always kind of flipped that down just so the kids wouldn’t get in there.
TT: Okay. But it doesn’t the door won’t open up because of the carpet without that lock down. If you leave the lock in the up position the door doesn’t just swing (inaudible).
PR: No.
TT: Okay. Were you ever, you were not ever in the basement that morning before the police got there?
PR: No, I was not.
​

John Ramsey BDA interview - June 23, 1998:

9 MIKE KANE: Okay. Now when you went around
10 to the wine cellar door, you said you pulled at it
11 and, I think you said, that you were surprised
12 that it was latched?
13 JOHN RAMSEY: I just said I remember pulling
14 on it almost popping out of hand because it's
15 always been open. And I don't think the latch was
16 latched.
17 MIKE KANE: I think you said, (I didn't expect
18 it to be latched.̃ Was it normally not?
19 JOHN RAMSEY: I'd say, I mean, the door was
20 kind of stuck anyway, so it wasn't common to latch
21 it.
22 MIKE KANE: Did that latch, and I've seen
23 pictures of it, it was on like a pivot?
24 JOHN RAMSEY: It was on a block of wood.
25 MIKE KANE: A block of wood, but it was
0182
1 pivoted?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
3 MIKE KANE: Was it enough that it would fall
4 down on its own or did you have to physically turn
5 it?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: I think you had to physically
7 turn it.
​

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=14"]Transcripts: Ramsey murder case - Forums For Justice[/ame]

 

[otg]

There are two golf bags in this picture you posted, Mama (the other one is partially visible on the left side of the picture and it has John Ramsey's name on it):

Attached is another picture of the two side-by-side along with a couple of loose clubs:

 

[Theonly1]

Mods: Is there a thread solely for the feces discussion? If not, may we start one?

Can we please discuss the following locations for the straight poop:

In JBR bedroom
*JBR's candy box smeared with feces
*Pair of pajama bottoms with feces in them
*JBR pants on her bathroom floor with either feces or stains in them. No underwear?
*Feces stains in every pair of her underwear retrieved by police

Downstairs:
*Feces in unflushed toilet
*Possible feces smears on wall

Also see:
1997 interview from nanny Geraldine Vodicka wherein she states Burke smeared feces on the wall of the bathroom during PR's first bout with cancer.

Please discuss.

Thanks!

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

Yes, he was a cop who was assigned to search for a point of entry. Although a major mistake, that he didn't open the door, I can see how his line of thinking was, well the door is locked....an intruder couldn't have exited through the room b/c he wouldn't have been able to "close" the latch and re lock the door from the other side.

I can't. It's an absurd assumption given the location of the ransom note, the supposedly-non-PR-provided pineapple, etc. This mysterious intruder was clearly on the 2nd floor. Why assume he exited through the wine cellar room on the basement floor? [Latching it behind himself somehow, no less.] He had all kinds of potential exits which were much easier than that one.

However, AGAIN, any competent LE would check all rooms because any competent LE would know to suspect the parents too.

I'm a little confused??? I'm not sure what you mean by inoperable?

The person (whose name I can't remember) early on in this thread talked about a lock of the type that was on that door being rendered useless (i.e., inoperable) by gravity because it would just slide down in a vertical position. That's what I was referring to. It's one of the reasons I thought this was a sliding bolt lock and thought pointing out the notches was in order.

 

[bettybaby00]

I can't. It's an absurd assumption given the location of the ransom note, the supposedly-non-PR-provided pineapple, etc. This mysterious intruder was clearly on the 2nd floor. Why assume he exited through the wine cellar room on the basement floor? [Latching it behind himself somehow, no less.] He had all kinds of potential exits which were much easier than that one.

However, AGAIN, any competent LE would check all rooms because any competent LE would know to suspect the parents too.


The person (whose name I can't remember) early on in this thread talked about a lock of the type that was on that door being rendered useless (i.e., inoperable) by gravity because it would just slide down in a vertical position. That's what I was referring to. It's one of the reasons I thought this was a sliding bolt lock and thought pointing out the notches was in order.

Yes IA, no intruder--whether a would be kidnapper for money, or someone looking to molest and murder--is going to bring his victim to the basement of the house while 3 people are asleep upstairs. Whatever the motive for snatching JRB from her bed, they would have left with her ASAP. Even if it was a kidnapping gone wrong, they still would take the body and try to get the ransom money.

He definitely should have checked the room, whether or not they should have been suspecting the parents at that point idk if that's the norm in a kidnapping with a ransom note present :dunno:

 

[Mama2JML]

Yes IA, no intruder--whether a would be kidnapper for money, or someone looking to molest and murder--is going to bring his victim to the basement of the house while 3 people are asleep upstairs. Whatever the motive for snatching JRB from her bed, they would have left with her ASAP. Even if it was a kidnapping gone wrong, they still would take the body and try to get the ransom money.

Why, even if it was a "kidnapping gone wrong", would the killer risk removing JonBenét from the house? A live child presents risks as does a dead child.

He definitely should have checked the room, whether or not they should have been suspecting the parents at that point idk if that's the norm in a kidnapping with a ransom note present :dunno:

The BPD could hardly have been less prepared for the "norm".

 

[CherCher]

Why, even if it was a "kidnapping gone wrong", would the killer risk removing JonBenét from the house? A live child presents risks as does a dead child.

Then why leave the note at all?

The BPD could hardly have been less prepared for the "norm".

Possibly true. I think the BPD would never have been prepared for a case like this, and the DA's office even less.

 

[DeeDee249]

The wineceller did not have a lock on the inside. The only lock was the wooden peg on a nail at the top of the door on the outside. Officer French was the first LE on the scene that morning, arriving within a few minutes of Patsy's 911 call. He admits to finding the wineceller door and trying to open it, but failed to notice the wooden peg at the top. So he left it. Behind that door was JB's body. Had he opened it, the crime scene would have remained uncompromised and the investigation may have taken a different turn.
I had read where French said he regretted many times his failure to open that door.
Later, he changed his story a little bit- by saying that he HAD noticed the latch, but figured since it opened from the outside, there couldn't be anyone hiding in there. At this time, the police were still thinking this was a kidnapping and French was probably not thinking the "missing" child might be in that room.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

The wineceller did not have a lock on the inside. The only lock was the wooden peg on a nail at the top of the door on the outside. Officer French was the first LE on the scene that morning, arriving within a few minutes of Patsy's 911 call. He admits to finding the wineceller door and trying to open it, but failed to notice the wooden peg at the top. So he left it. Behind that door was JB's body. Had he opened it, the crime scene would have remained uncompromised and the investigation may have taken a different turn.
I had read where French said he regretted many times his failure to open that door.
Later, he changed his story a little bit- by saying that he HAD noticed the latch, but figured since it opened from the outside, there couldn't be anyone hiding in there. At this time, the police were still thinking this was a kidnapping and French was probably not thinking the "missing" child might be in that room.

Thank you DeeDee! This clarifies a lot.

Sorry to be late to the boards and possibly slow to catch up, you all. I've been absorbing info too fast and I keep forgetting stuff. lol I really appreciate the clarifications about the lock.

It still makes no sense to me at all that Patsy would wrap presents in that room. :-/

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

Shoot, otg! I had a whole "Oh I get it now" post all ready, and I thought I sent it. But I don't see it, so I must have closed out of it while in preview mode. Sorry!!

 

[bettybaby00]

Why, even if it was a "kidnapping gone wrong", would the killer risk removing JonBenét from the house? A live child presents risks as does a dead child.

The BPD could hardly have been less prepared for the "norm".

Yes, IA both present risk, but abducting the victim away from the "crime scene" is kinda the who point of a kidnapping.

So what was the plan? Was the kidnapper going to take her by the hand and walk out the front door?

If it wasn't intentional, and he figured there was less risk if he could hide the body well enough within the house to still get his payout, what happened to the call from The Small Foreign Faction?

 

[Mama2JML]

Yes, IA both present risk, but abducting the victim away from the "crime scene" is kinda the who point of a kidnapping.

So what was the plan? Was the kidnapper going to take her by the hand and walk out the front door?

Presuming this was a kidnapping gone wrong, some IDIs theorize the perp tried to use the suitcase, or it's contents, to conceal and restrain JonBenét. (Hence, the CBI's fiber analysis linking the sham & duvet to the victim's clothing.)

If it wasn't intentional, and he figured there was less risk if he could hide the body well enough within the house to still get his payout, what happened to the call from The Small Foreign Faction?

If the perp's primary motive was a ransom collection, then the plan failed the moment JonBenét died. Removing a dead child from the home would present no benefit, and involve far greater risk. Same goes for the would be phone call.

 

[Venom]

Ok, so if the intruders intent was a ransom collection, how did JB end up dead from "asphyxiation due to strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma?"
I mean why would a kidnapper be so careless with the victim that she would die, before even leaving the house? Careful enough to not leave fingerprints, hairs; but left some "clever little clues." It just defies logic, imo.

 

[THE BUNK]

If the perp's primary motive was a ransom collection, then the plan failed the moment JonBenét died. Removing a dead child from the home would present no benefit, and involve far greater risk. Same goes for the would be phone call.

I positioned the botched-abduction theory as the only IDI theory that made any sense in the IDI only thread. Are you considering that theory, now?

Ok, so if the intruders intent was a ransom collection, how did JB end up dead from "asphyxiation due to strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma?"
I mean why would a kidnapper be so careless with the victim that she would die, before even leaving the house? Careful enough to not leave fingerprints, hairs; but left some "clever little clues." It just defies logic, imo.

They would be careless if they were inept amateurs. I could easily see friends of JAR looking to make a quick money grab committing an idiotic plan like this. Especially if they considered that if they were caught, their parents and the Ramsey's might cover for them.