Out of place items in Ramsey home

[RANCH]

cadaver scents are readily available for purchase, just like the doe-in-estrus urine scents that deer hunters use

There are "Pseudo Scents" available for dog handlers use. There value is debatable.

Pseudo Scents

Pseudo scents for heroin, marijuana, and explosives have been designed to match measured VOC profiles, yet one study (Marcias et al. 2008) found that dogs did not respond to the pseudo scents. “The lack of response by the trained detector dogs indicated a mis-match between the instrument-measured, human-interpreted profile and the dogs’ recognized scent signature.” (The Supreme Court is poised to decide whether a drug dog’s training and certification is insufficient to provide probable cause for a vehicle search in Florida v. Harris (Docket No. 11-817), a case on which the Court granted certiorari on March 26. If a dog has been trained using a fallible technique, could it be said to be “well-trained?”
Although a certification procedure is something of a threshold to assure the dog has some skills, an analysis of the dog’s performance history would more fully establish a canine team’s capabilities.)

The researchers state that if “synthetic training aids were available then the reliability of HRD dogs might increase simply through improved specificity and sensitivity to the trained target odor.” It is not clear if the researchers were aware of, or chose not to mention, that there already are pseudo scents, such as Sigma-Aldrich’s Pseudo Corpse Scent Formulations. The adoption of pseudo scents would require many standards to be modified to permit use of such scents.

http://doglawreporter.blogspot.com/2012/04/training-cadaver-dogs-on-pig-remains.html

 

[2 percent]

I vaguely remember K-9s from another case. A former cop was saying not all K-9 dogs are equal. Some are drug dogs and some cadaver, etc. One point she made was police depts rarely have money to train both drug and cadaver dogs. The reason being that search and rescue typically have the cadaver dogs and police depts have drug dogs for, probably, obvious reasons.

I tried (not terribly hard) to check out both Boulder and Aurora PDs but didn't get very far. It would be interesting to find out what each jurisdiction has in the way of K-9 expertise.

One point that was made in that other case is all dogs, trained or not, would follow the scent of blood. I don't know if that's true. I'd be more inclined not to believe that. It would be interesting to know the facts about the K-9 in the area and their certifications as well as the question about blood.

 

[Theonly1]

They are HRD canines. I just did not want to confuse anyone. The remains used usually varies. I have seen the scent in biohazard-like containers. God, I gagged and gagged because I HAD to smell it. There was some kind of registration/permission to get the Chr. They are no my dogs. I was always just in the team with a handler.

 

[Theonly1]

As I was told, the remains can vary from particles, but end up being like a swatch of towel say that layed under a body for 20 minutes - still in a can. High intensity to less intensity. So, the dog gets better and better.

 

[Theonly1]

Who knows what chunk of decomp I got a whiff of, but holy moly!

 

[RANCH]

They are HRD canines. I just did not want to confuse anyone. The remains used usually varies. I have seen the scent in biohazard-like containers. God, I gagged and gagged because I HAD to smell it. There was some kind of registration/permission to get the Chr. They are no my dogs. I was always just in the team with a handler.

I don't think that you will confuse anyone here on Websleuths by using "HRD Dog". LOL.

 

[gramcracker]

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54943"]cadaver dogs and scents - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[RANCH]

Here's a good post by WS member Oriah that explains things.

Oriah Oriah is offline
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 7,210
There was a question on another thread that I thought I'd bring over here, asking about how or whether or not an HRD dog could 'hit' or alert on a living human being.
I want to remind everyone, that's one of the reasons for the clarification of 'human remains detection' and not 'cadaver' dogs.

Human remains are not necessarily entire bodies. Parts of humans can decompose while the human themself remains alive.
Example- an accident causes a limb to be severed. The individual survives the accident, but the limb is lost. An HRD dog might be called in to try and locate the limb. An HRD dog should alert to the limb, but should not alert to the living individual involved in the accident.

There are many ways that human decomp can be present, and not involve a death. So an HRD alert does not necessarily rule in or out whether a death has occured. Hope this helps with some questions.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7570605&postcount=268"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Human Remains (*cadaver) Detection (HRD) dog questions and answers **NO DISCUSSION**[/ame]

 

[Theonly1]

Not that it was out if place, but does anyone else find John reading Mind Hunter to be hinky? Yep, I had the book too. But I did not have a crime scene at my house. Douglas' book details previous cases, talks about catching killers, evidence, fibers, and so on. Hinky to me if it was sitting on the nightstand. Or was it on a shelf?

 

[Theonly1]

I mean, we here are true crime junkies. Was John?

 

[Mama2JML]

Not that it was out if place, but does anyone else find John reading Mind Hunter to be hinky? Yep, I had the book too. But I did not have a crime scene at my house. Douglas' book details previous cases, talks about catching killers, evidence, fibers, and so on. Hinky to me if it was sitting on the nightstand. Or was it on a shelf?

Hinky doesn't even begin to describe it. Perhaps it wasn't there at all.

 

[Theonly1]

And then JR hires Douglas? Yeah, I think he had that book.

 

[Meara]

Can we come back to that pillow in the kitchen for a moment? In a case full of weird details, this still has to be one of the weirdest. Do we know anything more about it? Was it a bed pillow and, if so, do we know whose bed it came from? Were the Rams surprised to see it there, or did they offer some explanation? I don't recall discussion about it in any of the recorded statements, yet, given its strangeness, its absence seems conspicuous. Hm.

 

[DeDee]

"Mind Hunter" published August 1, 1996. Let's have a look inside, shall we?

* * * WARNING SENSITIVE SUBJECT MATTER* * *

The true crime material John Douglas writes about is so very gruesome and graphic in nature. Let that warning be a guide to include this entire post.


Mind Hunter: Inside the FBI's Elite Serial Crime Unit: John Douglas, Mark Olshaker: 9780671528904: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EYEcQLZ0L.@@AMEPARAM@@51EYEcQLZ0L

After the index near the end of the book, is a special section: "In the Mind of a Killer", where about 7 pgs in, the Agents of the Naval Investigative Service is mentioned. A few pages further in the crime story, the victim is almost killed first accidentally by being run over by a car, then, again, accidentally, when the accidental killer holds a screwdriver out of panic after hearing someone at the same time the victim is running in the dark toward him and gets herself stabbed.

He decides to make her death look like a brutal sexual attack. He pushes her down an embankment, breaks off a branch from a nearby tree, rolls her onto her stomach and "pushed the stick into her just once". AR described the most unpleasant extent.

The killer, not unlike Patsy Ramsey, knew the moral difference between right and wrong, but was not going to let that moral distinction get in the way.

The Atlanta Child Murders 1979 until 1981

The criminal profiler John E. Douglas declared that, though he considers that [Wayne] Williams perpetrated a lot of the murders, he does not believe that he perpetrated them all. Douglas added that he thinks that police enforcement agencies have got more or less an idea of who the additional killers are, mysteriously adding, “It is not an individual wrongdoer and the fact isn’t pleasant.”

http://newsflavor.com/world/usa-canada/atlanta-child-murders-update/#ixzz34D2q79pq

The evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones.
~ William Shakespeare

 

[Anti-K]

See here: http://tinyurl.com/pfgs82k
...

AK

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

If you notice also, it's the type of latch that is usually installed on the side of a doorway. As it is installed here, the latch would fall down with gravity.

No it wouldn't. Not if it's a standard sliding lock. The hasp is usually notched as in this picture:

The notches are probably on these kinds of locks because they'd be easier to jimmy open (by someone trying to get in from outside) if the sliding part of the lock moved smoothly back and forth.

It's obvious why it might not be noticed -- they usually are not installed like that, so anyone would just about have to be looking for it.

True, it isn't usual. But FWIW, two doors in two different places I've lived in (both in older houses) had/have this kind of lock, also placed vertically, in a similar spot -- vertically above the door, and left of center. One is on the door to my balcony currently. In the other house where I lived, the lock was painted white like the moulding around the door (as the lock in the picture appears to be). It may not have been used in a long time, but still, it was installed at some point and it still worked. It's possible the Ramseys didn't even install that lock and it was there when they moved in, as both of them were in my case.

I am RDI, leaning towards PDI. But I believe we should be accurate about every detail.

All that said, two things are chilling to me -- that the golf clubs were so close to the WC (weren't the golf clubs one of the items removed from the house very quickly?), and that the door was latched. I didn't know these details before.

Even supposing he noticed the lock at all, a killer would not latch it to buy time; it was the Ramseys' house and they would know about the lock. It would buy no time whatsoever. And if the killer entered/exited through that window he obviously couldn't have locked it behind himself.

I believe someone locked it from sheer habit, unconsciously, upon leaving the room. We all do things like that, especially if preoccupied and/or in a hurry. We run on autopilot and do things we don't have a conscious memory of doing -- turning off a burner, etc.

Also, can anyone tell me if there was a table in the WC? If not, I don't buy that PR wrapped presents down there. She'd have to sit on the floor. Look at the rest of the house -- imagine how dirty the floor probably was. It was a big house. She couldn't take the presents into any other room and lock the door?

Does anyone know if the WC door locked from the inside? If not, again it makes no sense. Curious kids could follow her down there and just walk in. "Whatcha doing, Mom?"

I'm curious what the IDIs think about the latched door, and what explanation they think there could be for it.

 

[SweetT]

I think it would be hard for a kidnapper IDI to unlock that cellar door at night time while carrying an injured child. They would definately had to know that the door had a lock, or would have chose a different place to go when the door did not open quickly.
I agree who ever locked the door behind them would have had to be aware of that lock in the first place..most random kidnappers wouldnt know this, I mean a police officer didnt even see the lock to open the door with. No reason for a kidnapper to lock the door unless to delay finding the body. It still does not make sense.
If Patsy had left the cellar door unlocked after taking presents from the room, it would be easy for a kidnapper to access, but they wouldnt know to lock it back behind them when they left.

Were finger prints taken off that door lock? Also someone would have to use one arm to hold the injured child while reaching above their heads with their free hand. This would take some strength to do..

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

I think it would be hard for a kidnapper IDI to unlock that cellar door at night time while carrying an injured child. They would definately had to know that the door had a lock, or would have chose a different place to go when the door did not open quickly.

Excellent point.

Were finger prints taken off that door lock?

An even more excellent point. I can't think of a scenario where the killer's fingerprints would NOT be on that lock, unless they were wearing gloves; but don't gloves leave telltale smudges?

Also someone would have to use one arm to hold the injured child while reaching above their heads with their free hand.

Well, not necessarily. They could have set her down.

 

[2 percent]

Excellent point.


An even more excellent point. I can't think of a scenario where the killer's fingerprints would NOT be on that lock, unless they were wearing gloves; but don't gloves leave telltale smudges?


Well, not necessarily. They could have set her down.

Lots of contact...fibers!!

 

[Mama2JML]

No it wouldn't. Not if it's a standard sliding lock. The hasp is usually notched as in this picture:

The notches are probably on these kinds of locks because they'd be easier to jimmy open (by someone trying to get in from outside) if the sliding part of the lock moved smoothly back and forth.



True, it isn't usual. But FWIW, two doors in two different places I've lived in (both in older houses) had/have this kind of lock, also placed vertically, in a similar spot -- vertically above the door, and left of center. One is on the door to my balcony currently. In the other house where I lived, the lock was painted white like the moulding around the door (as the lock in the picture appears to be). It may not have been used in a long time, but still, it was installed at some point and it still worked. It's possible the Ramseys didn't even install that lock and it was there when they moved in, as both of them were in my case.

I am RDI, leaning towards PDI. But I believe we should be accurate about every detail.

All that said, two things are chilling to me -- that the golf clubs were so close to the WC (weren't the golf clubs one of the items removed from the house very quickly?), and that the door was latched. I didn't know these details before.

Even supposing he noticed the lock at all, a killer would not latch it to buy time; it was the Ramseys' house and they would know about the lock. It would buy no time whatsoever. And if the killer entered/exited through that window he obviously couldn't have locked it behind himself.

I believe someone locked it from sheer habit, unconsciously, upon leaving the room. We all do things like that, especially if preoccupied and/or in a hurry. We run on autopilot and do things we don't have a conscious memory of doing -- turning off a burner, etc.

Also, can anyone tell me if there was a table in the WC? If not, I don't buy that PR wrapped presents down there. She'd have to sit on the floor. Look at the rest of the house -- imagine how dirty the floor probably was. It was a big house. She couldn't take the presents into any other room and lock the door?

Does anyone know if the WC door locked from the inside? If not, again it makes no sense. Curious kids could follow her down there and just walk in. "Whatcha doing, Mom?"

I'm curious what the IDIs think about the latched door, and what explanation they think there could be for it.

The wine cellar was void of windows and had only one door. The locking mechanism was located on the exterior wall, just above the door:

If the door was latched prior to entry, the killer had to unlatch it to move JonBenét inside. Thus, he/she would be aware of the "lock". According to investigators who've worked the case, a urine stain was present on the carpet outside the cellar door. Many believe this to be the location of death.

As for the train room window, if IDI, the perp may have entered &/or exited the home at this location prior to the 26th as evidence seems to suggest. I tend to believe the UNSUB's final exit was via the BP door.