Out of place items in Ramsey home

[Toltec]

I often wonder about that whole dynamic there, between Stewart, Melinda, and JR. Stewart supposedly approached Steve Thomas with the information he had about what JR had said, which called into question JR's story to BPD. And yet, Melinda went ahead and married him after giving information that adds to the suspicion of her father and step-mother? (I wonder how happy those family gatherings are.)

Also, on the Burke voice on 911-call thing... Imagine this possibility:

Burke is awake and in the room at the time of the call. The beginning of the call is PR explaining to BR what she's doing ("Hun, we need a... POLICE!) before she realizes the call has been answered. So then BR is there during the entire call with JR making certain he doesn't speak, until PR hangs up (or thinks she does). Then he thinks it's okay to say something so he asks about the ransom note thing he heard his mother mention on the phone, which was news to him ("What did you find."). And then of course the rest of it, "We're not speaking to you." "But what DID you find?"

At least that's my take on it. All - JMHO.
.

Could be Burke asking Dad..."What did you find?". Dad answering "I found JonBenet in the basement. What did you do Burke?".

"Nothing Dad!"

"Help me Jesus! Help me Jesus!"

"What's wrong Mom?".

"We're not talking to you!".

 

[DeDee]

BBM
I ran across this picture recently which I don't remember seeing, or maybe didn't realize exactly what it was if I saw it before. I believe it's the door going into the room where JB's body was found (I added the circle around the latch). <SNIP>

In the picture, you can also see that there is indeed an overhead pipe just above the door, and there is at least one set of golf clubs in the same area. That might also be a second set to the left with the word "RAMSEY" on it.

.

This is one of the saddest CS photos. It's CS #72, taken during the kidnapping phase, which means JonBenet was inside the concrete room lying on the moldy floor wrapped in the white blanket behind that door at the time of the snapshot by LE.

Is that a wire dangling from the pipe running across the top of the door?

OMO

 

[DeDee]

RBBM

Second floor: Paring knife & Pull-ups in the laundry area. Soiled pants & balled up turtleneck found in JB's bathroom.

First Floor: Flashlite on kitchen counter, bowl of pineapple, glass of tea, kleenex in breakfast room, pillow in the kitchen. Sippy cup & Johns bathrobe in the den.

Basement: Swiss army knife in boiler room counter, broken paintbrush in boiler room. Barbie dolls, barbie nitegown, JonBenet's blanket & JonBenet's body in the wine cellar.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
JB was not asleep and helped carry in presents as BR stated. PR and JB in breakfast room...JB ate pineapple and PR drank tea. PR was upset JB didn't think her doll looked like her and she was hurt she didn't want to wear a matching mother daughter outfit. PR was crying, wiping her tears with kleenex and she was upset with JB. "Why don't you think it looks like you....blah blah blah. SNiff, sniff." JB finished her pineapple and wanted to go to the den (not living room where JR said) where her Dad and brother were playing together...putting together her brother's toy. PR did not want her to spill her drink (was it warm milk to help her get sleepy?) on the rug in there so she put it in a sippy cup.

Still thinking about the rest...

JonBenet used a sippy cup? No way. Right?

The only thing JR ever remembered is that something didn't belong there. The suitcase wasn't kept there, the nightie wasn't supposed to be there, the pineapple etc etc... It's as if someone came in while they slept and rearranged the whole house.

<snip>That intruder was obviously much smarter than Officer French. He was indeed a "prescient intruder". In fact, UKGuy, I think that's a good term to use from now on when we refer to him/her: the prescient intruder :dance: (I like it).

And Ames, with what we know, French should know that he didn't miss saving JonBenet -- she had to be already dead when he was there.
.

:seeya:

 

[MeanDonnaJean]

The wooden latch on the WC door was there to keep the kids out of that room. It was high up at the top of the door, so high up that the first police officer on the scene to go down the basement did not see it, and failed to open that door, which, on the other side was JB's body and an UNcontaminated crime scene.

And THAT rite there really bugs the hell outta me.

If only.... :-(

 

[DeDee]

On 12-08-2010, 05:15 PM Toltec started this thread with this post:

Lets take a look at the following items that were out of place in the Ramsey home. Maybe we can come up with a new timeline or perhaps even a new theory. If anyone wants to add any items I have forgotten, feel free to do so.

Second floor: Paring knife & Pull-ups in the laundry area. Soiled pants & balled up turtleneck found in JB's bathroom.

First Floor: Flashlite on kitchen counter, bowl of pineapple, glass of tea, kleenex in breakfast room, pillow in the kitchen. Sippy cup & Johns bathrobe in the den.

Basement: Swiss army knife in boiler room counter, broken paintbrush in boiler room. Barbie dolls, barbie nitegown, JonBenet's blanket & JonBenet's body in the wine cellar.

These items alone can one make a theory of what happened.

Anyone have a theory using these out-of-place items?

First Floor: Flashlite on kitchen counter, bowl of pineapple, glass of tea, kleenex in breakfast room, pillow in the kitchen. Sippy cup & Johns bathrobe in the den.

While it is certain I do not know which room Toltec refers to as the "den", the room is on the first floor level. I always thought JRs robe was located in his study on the first floor. Whatever room Toltec is claiming to be the den; it had a sippy cup in there?

I've seen it more than once that JBR was still allowed a bottle at age three due to her resistance to weaning. Should I be surprised that she was allowed a sippy cup at age six?


Patsy denied the set-up of pineapple happiness and tea as being hers. John described the spoon in the pineapple picture as "that's Patsy's good silver". Patsy told LE she did not/would not purchase tissues in the blue rectangular shaped box and had no memory of it being at her home.

Patsy was already setting up her defense of "I don't know because I don't remember".

Patsy wanted her "version of the story" to everyone to be as far removed from that pineapple feeding as possible even if it meant an intruder must feed it to her daughter from the family's frig moments before she died.

Patsy distanced herself from the pineapple set-up because she knew how important it was.

Not everybody agrees with the point I am about to make but I feel Patsy lured her daughter to the kitchen with the promise of pineapple happiness and a visit from Santa who never came.

 

[Theonly1]

That golf bag bugs. Also JR asking if anyone retrieved it. Fat Cat had enough cash to buy new clubs. Methinks the head bash was either the flashlight or a club.

 

[Venom]

Skimming through this thread and saw some comments about the latch at the top of the WC door. It makes me think that the plan may have been to not find her in the house. Why you ask? Well...
Why have the door latched? Would an intruder really have closed and latched the door? Would an intruder have even known or seen the latch, it's a dark basement?

 

[Theonly1]

Heck, an intruder would never located the light switches!

 

[Meara]

Different floor plans of the Ramsey house available online use different names for some of the rooms. There is a room off the back hall, directly under JBR's room, that the "Blueprint for Murder" site labels "Den". The floor plan at Braveheart labels the same room "Study".

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6502/primer2/primer10_blue.html

http://braveheart.users4.50megs.com/ramsey/crimescn1.htm


Either way, this is not the room where JR's bathrobe was found! He had a private study, or home office, on the third floor, adjacent to his bathroom, which both the floor plans referenced here call a dressing area. This is where his bathrobe was actually found. At the end of this post is the excerpt from PR's June 1998 interview. Haney is showing her photos of the laundry area outside JBR's room, the enclosed stairway leading from there to the west end of the third floor, the master bedroom, and JR's study.

But first, for those who find visualizing the house difficult, here are some photos of these areas, taken from the A&E television show about the case and posted at acandyrose.com:

1. Heading down the stairs. The master bedroom in visible in the background. The doorway in the left foreground, by the way, is the entry to PR's bath/dressing area.

2. The bottom of the stairway leading into the laundry area outside JBR's room.

3. Bill Kurtis is standing in front of JBR's room, with the top of the spiral stairs visible in the left foreground.

Now, let's go back up to the third floor. This next photo is taken from just a little further back than photo #1. The photographer is standing in the doorway to JR's study.
4.

from PR's 1998 interview:

22 THOMAS HANEY: 44 now.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Looks like the
24 stairwell up to our room from the laundry room
25 THOMAS HANEY: So that's where you
0302
1 screamed for John?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, right.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: As shown in picture
4 44?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: 44, uh-hum.
6 THOMAS HANEY: And it would have
7 been from about that location?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
9 THOMAS HANEY: About where it's
10 taken from?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
12 THOMAS HANEY: And 45?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: That's going up to
14 the top of the steps. Side room.
15 THOMAS HANEY: 46 was your room?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: 47? Everything seem
18 okay?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
20 TRIP DeMUTH: 48, what is that?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: That's John's study,
22 back --
23 TRIP DeMUTH: To the right?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Where you turn
25 right, uh-hum.
0303
1 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you know what this
2 is? It's hard to see, in the back lower corner?
3 Does that look like his bathrobe?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. Looks
5 like a sweater or something.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Would it be unusual
7 for John to put his bathrobe down on the floor
8 in that area?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Because he
10 usually hangs it up in his bathroom. Unless,
11 you know, he was starting to put it on when I
12 screamed for him and he dropped it or something.

 

[chlban]

That golf bag bugs. Also JR asking if anyone retrieved it. Fat Cat had enough cash to buy new clubs. Methinks the head bash was either the flashlight or a club.

So do you lean toward JDI? Just curious. I am not married to a theory, other than RDI and 150% convinced of that, but I am not at all certain which RDI.
However I still lean strongly to PDI, the head blow in a fit of rage, and the rest to cover the injury and try to make it look like an intruder. I also lean strongly to John not being part of the cover up that night. I think the light slowly dawned the next morning starting with his reading of the RN and recognizing not only Patsy's handwriting, but her overall style.

Part of my reasoning on this is that the RN was just to patently absurd I don't see John signing off on that. I think he was smarter and obviously did not have her flair for the overly dramatic. I also think their behavior to one another that morning was particularly telling. I think she wanted the audience in part because she did not want to be confonted by John and knew he couldn't, or wouldn't, do it with an audience. And of course she knew full well there would be no consequence to ignoring the warning about talking to anyone since she had made all that up in warped, overly dramatic little mind.

However, I am always interested in alternative RDI theories. I have seen some very well researched and persuasive arguments on this site. I fully recognize that my "favored" theory could be off.

The only thing I have no doubt about is that one, two or all three of the people that survived in that house that night are responsible for her death and the staging.

 

[Theonly1]

So do you lean toward JDI? Just curious. I am not married to a theory, other than RDI and 150% convinced of that, but I am not at all certain which RDI.
However I still lean strongly to PDI, the head blow in a fit of rage, and the rest to cover the injury and try to make it look like an intruder. I also lean strongly to John not being part of the cover up that night. I think the light slowly dawned the next morning starting with his reading of the RN and recognizing not only Patsy's handwriting, but her overall style.

Part of my reasoning on this is that the RN was just to patently absurd I don't see John signing off on that. I think he was smarter and obviously did not have her flair for the overly dramatic. I also think their behavior to one another that morning was particularly telling. I think she wanted the audience in part because she did not want to be confonted by John and knew he couldn't, or wouldn't, do it with an audience. And of course she knew full well there would be no consequence to ignoring the warning about talking to anyone since she had made all that up in warped, overly dramatic little mind.

However, I am always interested in alternative RDI theories. I have seen some very well researched and persuasive arguments on this site. I fully recognize that my "favored" theory could be off.

The only thing I have no doubt about is that one, two or all three of the people that survived in that house that night are responsible for her death and the staging.

I think either BR hit JBR or PR hit her maybe in accident seeing some alleged molestation. That explains why they circled the wagons. HOWEVER, that Ranson Note is seething with anger towards JR. What had he done? Molestation? Not gotten BR under control? There was something going on sexually with JBR before that night, imo. And the GJ seemed to think, according to their recommendation, that 2 if not all 3 were involved.

 

[Theonly1]

Out of place items thread: Okay, not that it was out of place, per se, but with ALL the packing for two trips needing doing, the coming home late for an early flight, etc., what was so important about JBRs red shirt that needed soaking? Correct me if I am wrong, but was there not an item of hers soaking in a sink? Why? What had been on it?

 

[Theonly1]

IF PDI alone - solo - with JR having not one ounce of initial involvement, then why:

1. Did he cover and keep covering for PR. He knew her handwriting. *advertiser censored*, I think it looks exactly like her handwriting!
2. Let her "Mr. Ramsey" him all over that note. Making Fat Cat comments and digs about not "growing a brain, John" and then STICK AROUND?
3. He had divorced before so one could ASSume it was not due to the sacred marriage vow. Why not divorce her later?
4. Why throw all friends under the bus with gusto? That is cold. Heartless.
5. Why not be MORE busted up about JBRs death than Beth's? It makes no sense to me.
6. Why try to high-tail it out of Boulder immediately?
7. Why keep an "island of privacy" around certain phone records? Who did he call before and after 911?
8. Why did the GJ vote that, and I forget the wording, to indict essentially for cover-up?
9. Why IN THE WORLD did the fibers from his Israeli made shirt end up IN THE CROTCH of the brand new size 12s!? Did he throw the shirt down the chute and PR used that item to wipe? Because while secondary transfer I will buy in some areas, I aint buying that the fibers crawled inside the panty crotch. On her shirt. Okay. Maybe even outside the longjohns. Okay, whatever. But inside the brand new undies from the basement package that went right onto JBR? That is a smoking gun.

 

[Venom]

Just a thought, maybe JR trying to fly out of Boulder that same day was a way for him to get PR "alone" so he could confront her. I wonder what PR thought about leaving town.

 

[Mama2JML]

Out of place items thread: Okay, not that it was out of place, per se, but with ALL the packing for two trips needing doing, the coming home late for an early flight, etc., what was so important about JBRs red shirt that needed soaking? Correct me if I am wrong, but was there not an item of hers soaking in a sink? Why? What had been on it?

I'm not aware of any item of clothing "soaking in a sink". Regarding the red turtleneck, ST's sworn testimony (W vs. Rs) might clarify the matter:

"Q. Page 286, you make reference to a red turtleneck being stripped off of JonBenet when it got wet from I guess her bed wetting.

MR. DIAMOND: Where are you?

Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Third paragraph down "I concluded the little girl had worn the red turtleneck to bed, as her mother originally said, and that it was stripped off when it got wet." Are you talking about wet from urine?

A. In this hypothesis we're talking about, yes.

Q. Did you ever have or the Boulder Police Department to your knowledge ever have the red turtleneck found in the bathroom tested forensically to determine if it had any type of trace evidence or other evidence on it?

A. Again, it sounds like you know otherwise but I was under the impression from Trujillo that there wasn't a presumptive test for urine.

Q. Did anybody tell you that they found the red turtleneck and that it was wet?

A. No, this is what I am surmising in the hypothesis.

Q. Was the red turtleneck taken into evidence?

A. I certainly believe it was.

Q. Did it have any type of urine stain on it?

A. Not that I'm aware of. I never have looked at it personally.

Q. Where did you get the statement that it got wet; did you just manufacture that out of whole cloth?

A. No, I'm suggesting that that was a reasonable explanation for the final resting place of this red turtleneck of which she may have indeed worn home.

Q. But you had no evidence to support that statement about the turtleneck being wet, true?

A. No, I don't know that it was urine stained.

Q. Or wet?

A. Or wet."​

 

[CherCher]

Out of place items thread: Okay, not that it was out of place, per se, but with ALL the packing for two trips needing doing, the coming home late for an early flight, etc., what was so important about JBRs red shirt that needed soaking? Correct me if I am wrong, but was there not an item of hers soaking in a sink? Why? What had been on it?

It's been gone over several times, but the "red shirt soaking in a sink" is not true. There was a red shirt which was damp found on JB's vanity in her bathroom but it wasn't soaking in the sink.

 

[CherCher]

Never mind, I see Mama2 found the transcript.

 

[Theonly1]

Right. Great, thanks. But something was soaking in a sink per PRs depo. What did she say she washed out? Think hard.

 

[Theonly1]

The sink not in JBRs bath...

 

[gramcracker]

JB's jumper (?) but she couldn't remember the last time it was worn