PA - Amtrak train from Washington crashes in Philadelphia, May 2015

[jjenny]

What if he already had his hand on the throttle to slow down from seventy to fifty, the projectile hits and he is stunned or injured. Wouldn't it be possible for him to unintentionally push the throttle forward then snap out of it and that's when the break was applied. If he was injured could he of been coherent enough to talk to another about the projectile, but out of it enough not to realize he was pushing the throttle forward?

They already said the injury he has isn't consistent with being hit by a projectile.

 

[jjenny]

This is exactly what I was going to say if no one said it first.
If a rock comes through the window and hits him in the head...
He could obviously be totally out of it.

I've had a couple of head injuries and they can really mess with you.
Even the ones that don't require staples can do a number on a person. :twocents:



Link? I hadn't heard that and it would clearly blow our theory to pieces.
I'm not sure how they could have confirmed that at this point though.

Well, obviously, if something hit him on the head, he could have been out of it. But it doesn't look like anything like this happened. His injuries aren't consistent with being hit on the head by a projectile.

 

[Nova]

I question the concussion issue. I am only going by my own experience. I suffered a major concussion this January....still have issues from it. I have NO memory of the 4 days following, and had memory issues for months. HOWEVER, I remember every single detail of the day and evening of, and the moment before it happened.

I'm not a doctor, but on TV I've seen many cases of concussed individuals losing their short-term memory, particularly of events immediately before and after a collision.

 

[Footwarrior]

Train windscreens are normally made with laminated glass, to prevent any glass or objects getting into the cab and potentially injure the driver. I've seen what happens to a train windscreen when something hits it, in the UK, and the glass will crack, but it'll stay intact and in place. They're designed to withstand most potential hazards - birds, small rocks/pebbles, that kind of thing.

Obviously, they're probably not going to stop large projectiles, or anything high speed, like a bullet or something.

Years ago I was riding in a CTA car when one of the windows exploded, covering a passenger with broken glass. The conductor said the windows were tough enough to stop a .22 round so it had to be something larger.

 

[jjenny]

No projectile entered the cockpit. If there even was a projectile.

They should have verified with SEPTA engineer who was directly involved in the conversation (and by reviewing radio transmissions, if they got them recorded) whether Bostian even said that train was hit by a projectile.
Right now they are going by something conductor supposedly overheard. I am not sure why they went public with this without verification.

 

[CARIIS]

I'm not a doctor, but on TV I've seen many cases of concussed individuals losing their short-term memory, particularly of events immediately before and after a collision.

There are many types of amensia. Basically Amnesia in which the lack of memory relates to events that occurred before a traumatic event. Retrograde amnesia is in contrast to antegrade amnesia in which the lack of memory relates to events that occurred after a traumatic event. Primarily kinda relates to which part of the brain was wacked and what that areas role in memory is.....

So if we go with antegrade for him, his memory (lets roll with him being hit by projectile) his memory loss seems to start right agter that which is congruent IMO> In night , on a new route, all of a sudden your widnwo cracks that can be a very frightening event - just in terms of the "boo" factor.

The passenger on one of the trains said the impact was quite intense and shocking - so that could be the beginning of the trauma for him - which furhter explains the following mistakes in the 60 seconds prior to deraililng. I think media is trying to say did projectile casue derailment - obvioulsy not. But the event itself and subsequent noises might have began the engineers chain of events which THEN resulted in errors and tradegy.

I am a real "boo" person - and a good one (!) can confuse ya for a minute.

Projectile IMO began a chain of unfonrtuate events - direct cause no - contributaory certainly the precipitator of the chain............

Such as.................

• Anterograde amnesia
• Retrograde amnesia r
• Post-traumatic amnesia
• Dissociative amnesia
  • Dissociative fugue
  • Posthypnotic amnesia
• Lacunar amnesia
• Childhood amnesia
• Transient global amnesia
• Source amnesia

etc etc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amnesia#Types

 

[CARIIS]

They should have verified with SEPTA engineer who was directly involved in the conversation (and by reviewing radio transmissions, if they got them recorded) whether Bosnian even said that train was hit by a projectile.
Right now they are going by something conductor supposedly overheard. I am not sure why they went public with this without verification.

KInd of thinking they may have been suspcious of it before conductor. If you go to the images and click on them they enlarge - and the damage in front of him is totally different (although those three areas themesleves are very similiar-) the one of the left is totally different and match the other two trains in terms of what the result was.

 

[CARIIS]

Years ago I was riding in a CTA car when one of the windows exploded, covering a passenger with broken glass. The conductor said the windows were tough enough to stop a .22 round so it had to be something larger.

Its interesting , many are focusing on if it entered cocpit - I am more struck by the suddenenss, loudness, and related notions like are we being shot at by a ragging lunatic, which in this day and age...............The other conductor was quite shaken -

 

[CARIIS]

What if he already had his hand on the throttle to slow down from seventy to fifty, the projectile hits and he is stunned or injured. Wouldn't it be possible for him to unintentionally push the throttle forward then snap out of it and that's when the break was applied. If he was injured could he of been coherent enough to talk to another about the projectile, but out of it enough not to realize he was pushing the throttle forward?[/QUOTE]

What would be of more interest to me, if conversaion happened, to find out the other conductors notions of how our guy sounded in discussing what had just occurred to his locamotive - did he sound frazzled, condfused, concerned agitated etc!

 

[Isabelle]

What if he already had his hand on the throttle to slow down from seventy to fifty, the projectile hits and he is stunned or injured. Wouldn't it be possible for him to unintentionally push the throttle forward then snap out of it and that's when the break was applied. If he was injured could he of been coherent enough to talk to another about the projectile, but out of it enough not to realize he was pushing the throttle forward?

Agree with this as a possibility. Startle reflex is controlled by nervous system and causes extremities to move out away from the body. You have no control over this.

 

[jjenny]

They also have an outward facing camera. One would think if something flew at the train, camera would show it.

 

[ohreally]

What if he already had his hand on the throttle to slow down from seventy to fifty, the projectile hits and he is stunned or injured. Wouldn't it be possible for him to unintentionally push the throttle forward then snap out of it and that's when the break was applied. If he was injured could he of been coherent enough to talk to another about the projectile, but out of it enough not to realize he was pushing the throttle forward?[/QUOTE]


What would be of more interest to me, if conversaion happened, to find out the other conductors notions of how our guy sounded in discussing what had just occurred to his locamotive - did he sound frazzled, condfused, concerned agitated etc!

I agree. IMO how he sounded when telling the other other engineer will be a big piece of the puzzle.

 

[jjenny]

Is it normal for rocks to hit a train like this? And, does this happen all over the country, or is it in this once area of the east coast?

Apparently not uncommon.
"SEPTA trains traveling through the area — including one of the poorest and most violent parts of the city — have had projectiles thrown at them in the past, whether by vandals or teenagers, she said. It was unusual that the SEPTA train was forced to stop on Tuesday night."

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/05/16/ntsb-examining-damage-on-derailed-amtrak-train/

 

[Lamima]

So the SEPTA train gets hit with something and comes to a stop (and the window is shattered). Conductor on Amtrak overhears radio communications with SEPTA train about incident and Amtrak passes through the same area shortly after and then soon after that Amtrak derails? Do I have this correct?

 

[jjenny]

So the SEPTA train gets hit with something and comes to a stop (and the window is shattered). Conductor on Amtrak overhears radio communications with SEPTA train about incident and Amtrak passes through the same area shortly after and then soon after that Amtrak derails? Do I have this correct?

"About three minutes later and four miles away, near Frankford Junction, Amtrak's northbound Train 188 derailed on the Northeast Corridor tracks, killing at least six and injuring more than 200."
http://www.post-gazette.com/news/tr...mtrak-crash-philadelphia/stories/201505130188

 

[jjenny]

They also have an outward facing camera. One would think if something flew at the train, camera would show it.

In fact, apparently investigators didn't see anything in the video that would suggest the train was hit by a projectile.

“We will use all sources of information we can to independently evaluate that,” Sumwalt said during a media briefing Friday. He said that investigators did not detect any object hitting the windshield when they reviewed video footage taken from the engineer’s point of view, but they will re*examine that. However, he added that the crash itself complicates that effort.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...173c22-fb3f-11e4-a13c-193b1241d51a_story.html

 

[stormshine]

I personally don't see his online postings about train safety to be suspicious. The guy's a train engineer. His entire job revolves around getting a train safely from point A to point B. It stands to reason that making trains safer is something he would care about, and I seriously doubt this is a case of him "trying to prove his point".

My best guess is that, whether or not there was a projectile that distracted him, this is a case of very simple human error with disastrous consequences. A little more complex than a case of someone hitting the gas instead of the brakes, but similar. As others have mentioned, perhaps he was distracted and thought it had already gone around the curve. Maybe he just wasn't paying attention to whether or not he was accelerating or decelerating. All of those are possibilities and make a lot more sense than he was trying to justify his concerns about train safety by crashing his train.

 

[jjenny]

He knew the area and knew the speed limits. He had no health issues and claims he wasn't fatigued. When he went to talk to investigators after the crash, they quizzed him on speed limits and he knew all of that, despite claiming to have amnesia around the time of the accident.
I find it hard to believe he somehow thought he already passed the curve.

 

[jjenny]

I think that's a very good theory. Apparently the system was already installed but not yet turned on. What if this guy was under mistaken impression that they system was already turned on?

Learning more about the system, he could not have been under the impression it was on. System communicates with a train via a computer. So he would know it wasn't on because it wasn't communicating.

 

[corundogs]

Link? I hadn't heard that and it would clearly blow our theory to pieces.
I'm not sure how they could have confirmed that at this point though.

I know that there have been responses to this...but there are no HOLES in that windshield. In order for a projectile to get to the engineer, it would have had to make a hole. All we see is a tempered glass windshield that has been damaged by something. And of course, that projectile would still be in the cockpit - and they would have the answer.

And I also agree with the poster who said that the video should have proof, since it was a front facing camera.

I just don't believe that this man would have been so distracted by something hitting his windshield that he forgot where he was.

I really wish someone could answer how far down the track you can see. This is a main point that I haven't seen answered.

IMO, this is a tragic accident caused by human error. Like most of you. Is it better if he got distracted by something and forgot where he was along the track? If an engineer is so easily distracted, does that mean you want them in charge of YOUR train?

ETA - and to those that think he was so distracted...is it OK that when someone is so distracted, they choose to speed up? I would think instinct would be to slow down to see if there was more complicated damage.