GUILTY PA - Four Young Men killed, 18-22, Bucks Co., 5-9 July 2017 #8 *arrests*

[Hippononymous]

First time poster, long (LONG) time reader.

As has been alluded to in previous posts, what do we really know about the purported diagnosis of schizophrenia and the ATV "head injury". Are these facts or are they statements that have been made to mitigate CD's responsibility/reputation. A few thoughts:

1. Was he diagnosed by a psychiatrist who saw him several times, or was this a one-shot deal diagnosis during the psych hold? I have a family member with mental illness and she received multiple different diagnoses, depending on who she saw, and when she saw them.
Additionally, I am a medical professional, albeit in a different specialty. Of course, one cannot diagnose without directly evaluating the patient, however his reported behaviors and actions appear consistent with antisocial personality disorder (colloquially known as psychopath/sociopath). That being said, there is some evidence that APD is more prevalent among schizophrenics than in the gen pop. Does he have both? One and not the other? Was there a misdiagnosis? If he was psychotic, this could have been due to other diagnoses as well (for example, bipolar disorder). I am not buying the schizophrenic diagnosis until it is more clearly confirmed.

2. Mental illness is highly stigmatized and CD is all about machismo. Perhaps his family used the ATV head injury story to explain his bizarre behavior to the outside world. Perhaps this cover story was preferable to admitting to others that he had mental illness? Again, I want this head injury story to be verified.

3. Change in appearance/weight gain... I am highly suspicious that this might coincide with the initiation of psychiatric medication(s), in particular, anti-psychotics.

So, we may have a man who is schizophrenic with traumatic brain injury. Or maybe not. An interesting point of debate is - if we find these statements to be untrue, does it change your view on this case or on his culpability?

CD's publicized behaviors don't strike me as schizophrenic in nature. Rather, he seems psychopathic (to use an outdated term). But of course, I will eat my words if evidence comes out to the contrary.

I've had the same questions about his "diagnosis."


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[drelaw]

The image for this thread on the app is a Facebook convo between CD and Ryan Reynolds and a Jeremy paone.

Does anyone have the link where that is from? I scrolled back a good bit and can't seem to find it


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[Karinna]

First time poster, long (LONG) time reader.

As has been alluded to in previous posts, what do we really know about the purported diagnosis of schizophrenia and the ATV "head injury". Are these facts or are they statements that have been made to mitigate CD's responsibility/reputation. A few thoughts:

1. Was he diagnosed by a psychiatrist who saw him several times, or was this a one-shot deal diagnosis during the psych hold? I have a family member with mental illness and she received multiple different diagnoses, depending on who she saw, and when she saw them.
Additionally, I am a medical professional, albeit in a different specialty. Of course, one cannot diagnose without directly evaluating the patient, however his reported behaviors and actions appear consistent with antisocial personality disorder (colloquially known as psychopath/sociopath). That being said, there is some evidence that APD is more prevalent among schizophrenics than in the gen pop. Does he have both? One and not the other? Was there a misdiagnosis? If he was psychotic, this could have been due to other diagnoses as well (for example, bipolar disorder). I am not buying the schizophrenic diagnosis until it is more clearly confirmed.

2. Mental illness is highly stigmatized and CD is all about machismo. Perhaps his family used the ATV head injury story to explain his bizarre behavior to the outside world. Perhaps this cover story was preferable to admitting to others that he had mental illness? Again, I want this head injury story to be verified.

3. Change in appearance/weight gain... I am highly suspicious that this might coincide with the initiation of psychiatric medication(s), in particular, anti-psychotics.

So, we may have a man who is schizophrenic with traumatic brain injury. Or maybe not. An interesting point of debate is - if we find these statements to be untrue, does it change your view on this case or on his culpability?

CD's publicized behaviors don't strike me as schizophrenic in nature. Rather, he seems psychopathic (to use an outdated term). But of course, I will eat my words if evidence comes out to the contrary.

Hi & :welcome5: Good first post and agree with what you say. Lots of speculation right now until hopefully more facts about this case come out. And if there is no Trial and a plea deal is on the table and accepted we will probably never know what this horrific crime was all about. All IMO

 

[Karinna]

I've had the same questions about his "diagnosis."


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Exactly. Reading back a lot of posters stated they thought the mental illness is BS and just an excuse for what he did and what he really is, a psycho killer that wanted to kill.
Who really knows? Certainly not normal behaviour though.

 

[Karinna]

It sounds kind of odd that SK patiently waited beside a dead body while CD drove off alone to go get TM and MS.

How would he know if CD would even come back ?....and there he'd be alone with a dead body.

I guess that is just another big looming question on our minds. Who exactly did what and how and when? I think that's why they have exactly the same charges, and SK is said to be only responsible for 3 of the murders and CD 4, because CD murdered JP initially by himself.
It will be CD & SK covering their own butt as to who was responsible for what exactly and being an accomplice probably carries the same charges.

 

[MsJosie]

Has any lawyer been appointed for either of the suspects? If so, who are they....and who is paying for them?

Thanks.

 

[ninij9]

I was glad to see they are taking action regarding the FAMILY OWNED FIREARM!

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...ounty-pennsylvania-murder-case-300489869.html


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Me too. I try never to lay blame on family members of accused, however the negligence of leaving an unsecured firearm around for him to use was a grave mistake of horrific proportions. This account has to be paid. The victims families deserve this much.

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[Karinna]

Me too. I try never to lay blame on family members of accused, however the negligence of leaving an unsecured firearm around for him to use was a grave mistake of horrific proportions. This account has to be paid. The victims families deserve this much.

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I'm sure they will be compensated in due course, but it's a bit soon for that yet IMO because it will entail a civil case for wrongful death, and i would think the criminal case has to be dealt with first to establish the facts.

 

[2Hope4]

The location of the backhoe and the possible GPS on the truck are 2 of my questions also.

When I first looked at this case when the property was being investigated my first thought was he had the grave already dug before he had the 2nd, 3rd and 4th victims - I thought that way because I just didn't think he had enough time to kill DF go meet TM and MS, kill them, try to sell the vehicle all before Sunday when I believe LE first entered the property.

Still believe his relationship with TM and MS can provide a lot of useful answers.

The only times I've witnessed a backhoe was burying horses. It actually didn't take that long to dig the holes, BUT, to my knowledge, the holes for my horses weren't 12+ feet deep either! I know lots of earth can be moved quickly though. As in less than an hour to bury horses.

Timewise with this case, I don't know. Usually you don't want a hole that deep dug very long before you fill it in, as you don't want to be responsible if someone falls in it, or wildlife falls in it. There's no way for either to climb out. I've had smaller holes dug with a back hoe, and kept a metal cover over it so nothing fell in. Living on a farm, unfortunately you have deceased animals. Just is easier if you can bury multiple animals in the same place, rather than hand digging a grave for each.... but my experience doesn't mean fact!

 

[2Hope4]

It sounds kind of odd that SK patiently waited beside a dead body while CD drove off alone to go get TM and MS.

How would he know if CD would even come back ?....and there he'd be alone with a dead body.

In court, SK said he needed help in jail. He isn't suppose to be bearing weight on one leg due to the injury from being shot. I have no idea if he used crutches or a cane or any means to walk with. It's possible though that he physically couldn't leave that barn. If CD left him there, and took the only known transportation, and SK can't walk long distances, he wouldn't have to way to get the heck out of there while CD was gone.
I

 

[dizzychick]

is CD an only child ?

 

[Whiteorchids]

First time poster, long (LONG) time reader.

As has been alluded to in previous posts, what do we really know about the purported diagnosis of schizophrenia and the ATV "head injury". Are these facts or are they statements that have been made to mitigate CD's responsibility/reputation. A few thoughts:

1. Was he diagnosed by a psychiatrist who saw him several times, or was this a one-shot deal diagnosis during the psych hold? I have a family member with mental illness and she received multiple different diagnoses, depending on who she saw, and when she saw them.
Additionally, I am a medical professional, albeit in a different specialty. Of course, one cannot diagnose without directly evaluating the patient, however his reported behaviors and actions appear consistent with antisocial personality disorder (colloquially known as psychopath/sociopath). That being said, there is some evidence that APD is more prevalent among schizophrenics than in the gen pop. Does he have both? One and not the other? Was there a misdiagnosis? If he was psychotic, this could have been due to other diagnoses as well (for example, bipolar disorder). I am not buying the schizophrenic diagnosis until it is more clearly confirmed.

2. Mental illness is highly stigmatized and CD is all about machismo. Perhaps his family used the ATV head injury story to explain his bizarre behavior to the outside world. Perhaps this cover story was preferable to admitting to others that he had mental illness? Again, I want this head injury story to be verified.

3. Change in appearance/weight gain... I am highly suspicious that this might coincide with the initiation of psychiatric medication(s), in particular, anti-psychotics.

So, we may have a man who is schizophrenic with traumatic brain injury. Or maybe not. An interesting point of debate is - if we find these statements to be untrue, does it change your view on this case or on his culpability?

CD's publicized behaviors don't strike me as schizophrenic in nature. Rather, he seems psychopathic (to use an outdated term). But of course, I will eat my words if evidence comes out to the contrary.

Your are 100% correct. I have a family member that has schizoaffective disorder, manic depressive and bi-polar disorder. It took three two week involuntary psychiatric hospitals stays and follow ups by many psychiatrists to determine his diagnosis. He continues to see them weekly as outpatient You can't go to a psych hospital one time and have an accurate diagnosis. There are so many MI's closely related and sometime a combination of two or more.

 

[dizzychick]

The only times I've witnessed a backhoe was burying horses. It actually didn't take that long to dig the holes, BUT, to my knowledge, the holes for my horses weren't 12+ feet deep either! I know lots of earth can be moved quickly though. As in less than an hour to bury horses.

Timewise with this case, I don't know. Usually you don't want a hole that deep dug very long before you fill it in, as you don't want to be responsible if someone falls in it, or wildlife falls in it. There's no way for either to climb out. I've had smaller holes dug with a back hoe, and kept a metal cover over it so nothing fell in. Living on a farm, unfortunately you have deceased animals. Just is easier if you can bury multiple animals in the same place, rather than hand digging a grave for each.... but my experience doesn't mean fact!

how much does a backhoe cost ? I thought they were very expensive like 200 grand expensive

 

[lakevacation]

First time poster, long (LONG) time reader.

As has been alluded to in previous posts, what do we really know about the purported diagnosis of schizophrenia and the ATV "head injury". Are these facts or are they statements that have been made to mitigate CD's responsibility/reputation. A few thoughts:

1. Was he diagnosed by a psychiatrist who saw him several times, or was this a one-shot deal diagnosis during the psych hold? I have a family member with mental illness and she received multiple different diagnoses, depending on who she saw, and when she saw them.
Additionally, I am a medical professional, albeit in a different specialty. Of course, one cannot diagnose without directly evaluating the patient, however his reported behaviors and actions appear consistent with antisocial personality disorder (colloquially known as psychopath/sociopath). That being said, there is some evidence that APD is more prevalent among schizophrenics than in the gen pop. Does he have both? One and not the other? Was there a misdiagnosis? If he was psychotic, this could have been due to other diagnoses as well (for example, bipolar disorder). I am not buying the schizophrenic diagnosis until it is more clearly confirmed.

2. Mental illness is highly stigmatized and CD is all about machismo. Perhaps his family used the ATV head injury story to explain his bizarre behavior to the outside world. Perhaps this cover story was preferable to admitting to others that he had mental illness? Again, I want this head injury story to be verified.

3. Change in appearance/weight gain... I am highly suspicious that this might coincide with the initiation of psychiatric medication(s), in particular, anti-psychotics.

So, we may have a man who is schizophrenic with traumatic brain injury. Or maybe not. An interesting point of debate is - if we find these statements to be untrue, does it change your view on this case or on his culpability?

CD's publicized behaviors don't strike me as schizophrenic in nature. Rather, he seems psychopathic (to use an outdated term). But of course, I will eat my words if evidence comes out to the contrary.

A diagnosis of Schizophrenia is certainly one that a mental health professional does not take lightly and requires examination and, ideally, insight of behaviors by family members over the course of several visits. Diagnosis requires that negative symptoms (functioning below what is standard or 'normal' for age, demographic, etc) and positive symptoms (functioning beyond what is standard or normal - i.e delusions, hallucinations) FOR AT LEAST 6 MONTHS while having positive symptoms for at least one month. Factors such as influences of drugs and other mental illnesses must first be ruled out.

Schizophrenia has an average onset in the mid/late teens to early 20s for men. It is not uncommon to find that those diagnosed at that age have had symptoms since childhood and either hid it due to shame or simply did not know that those symptoms were not normal. Additionally, the prodromal stage of a state or period of psychosis can be quite difficult to identify - family members, a professional, and even the individual with schizophrenia may not recognize the warning signs. There have been reports that CD has exhibited some troubling signs and run-ins with the police since the age of 14. It is not unreasonable to hypothesize that CD was exhibiting features of mental illness that would result in the onset of schizophrenia.

A state of schizophrenic psychosis, which is possibly what CD was in when he committed the horrific murders, can have a slow onset or a very rapid one. Oftentimes, it is accompanied by external stressors that the person cannot deal with due to limited faculties. Now that CD has accumulated significant stressors, he quite possibly does not know what is and is not reality. Even over the course of the few days between his initial weapons charge to his confession, there was a noticeable change in his gross motor functioning while walking and his 3rd mugshot after his confession shows him unfocused and slightly cross eyed - all hinting to catatonic behavior, a very common place for the schizophrenic to rest.

There are many misconceptions of schizophrenia. The lucky ones can complete higher education, hold down important and demanding jobs, and live independently. Many people with schizophrenia are very harmless. But there is also a percentage (sorry don't know it off the top of my head - I want to say 30 or so percent) that are in jail for committing crimes. Typically those with schizophrenia who behave violently have a history, beginning in childhood, of aggressive or violent behavior.

Mental illness is not at fault here with CD - the negligence of treatment and monitoring of symptoms of psychosis is - and those with schizophrenia very very often have the facilities to accept and manage treatment. We do not know what happened behind closed doors at the DiNardo house, but unless he signed over his rights to control his treatment to his parents, he is liable for his actions. And when it comes to someone with schizophrenia in treatment, continuously and consistently taking the prescribed dosage of ANYTHING is challenging and will likely result in breaks in treatment.

In regard to CD's confession, we have to take his claims seriously. But he quite possibly can't currently filter out reality from the non-reality-but-is-super-real dialogue that is running through his head. So maybe he did kill 2 people when he was 15. Or maybe he was 15 when he killed people in his mind. Or maybe he killed 2 people in '15. Or maybe he killed 2 people on the 15th of some month. Or maybe he killed 15 people with 2 other people.

Below is a link with some helpful information about schizophrenia. But this info is just touching the surface of the complications and nuances of this type of psychopathology.

https://www.theravive.com/therapedia/schizophrenia-disorder-dsm--5-295.90-(f20.9)

 

[qotus]

CD confessed to what happened. He still has to enter a plea before a judge. As far as I understand, he could still plea not guilty by reason of insanity even with a confession, which I really hope doesn't happen. His parents are wealthy enough to create a strong team of lawyers that could put up a fight in court. Again, I really hope that doesn't happen. He needs to go to prison and not drag the families through a long trial.

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[MB18901]

The image for this thread on the app is a Facebook convo between CD and Ryan Reynolds and a Jeremy paone.

Does anyone have the link where that is from? I scrolled back a good bit and can't seem to find it


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It is a private group.

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[Karinna]

It is a private group.

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And i think it's against WS TOS to post screenshots from private FB pages.

 

[Karinna]

From the WS Rules
(quote)
If a social media page is set to private and you get in the back way, you may not post what you find. Private means private!
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?291123-Social-Media-Facebook-Twitter-etc

 

[anonypotomous]

A diagnosis of Schizophrenia is certainly one that a mental health professional does not take lightly and requires examination and, ideally, insight of behaviors by family members over the course of several visits. Diagnosis requires that negative symptoms (functioning below what is standard or 'normal' for age, demographic, etc) and positive symptoms (functioning beyond what is standard or normal - i.e delusions, hallucinations) FOR AT LEAST 6 MONTHS while having positive symptoms for at least one month. Factors such as influences of drugs and other mental illnesses must first be ruled out.

Schizophrenia has an average onset in the mid/late teens to early 20s for men. It is not uncommon to find that those diagnosed at that age have had symptoms since childhood and either hid it due to shame or simply did not know that those symptoms were not normal. Additionally, the prodromal stage of a state or period of psychosis can be quite difficult to identify - family members, a professional, and even the individual with schizophrenia may not recognize the warning signs. There have been reports that CD has exhibited some troubling signs and run-ins with the police since the age of 14. It is not unreasonable to hypothesize that CD was exhibiting features of mental illness that would result in the onset of schizophrenia.

A state of schizophrenic psychosis, which is possibly what CD was in when he committed the horrific murders, can have a slow onset or a very rapid one. Oftentimes, it is accompanied by external stressors that the person cannot deal with due to limited faculties. Now that CD has accumulated significant stressors, he quite possibly does not know what is and is not reality. Even over the course of the few days between his initial weapons charge to his confession, there was a noticeable change in his gross motor functioning while walking and his 3rd mugshot after his confession shows him unfocused and slightly cross eyed - all hinting to catatonic behavior, a very common place for the schizophrenic to rest.

There are many misconceptions of schizophrenia. The lucky ones can complete higher education, hold down important and demanding jobs, and live independently. Many people with schizophrenia are very harmless. But there is also a percentage (sorry don't know it off the top of my head - I want to say 30 or so percent) that are in jail for committing crimes. Typically those with schizophrenia who behave violently have a history, beginning in childhood, of aggressive or violent behavior.

Mental illness is not at fault here with CD - the negligence of treatment and monitoring of symptoms of psychosis is - and those with schizophrenia very very often have the facilities to accept and manage treatment. We do not know what happened behind closed doors at the DiNardo house, but unless he signed over his rights to control his treatment to his parents, he is liable for his actions. And when it comes to someone with schizophrenia in treatment, continuously and consistently taking the prescribed dosage of ANYTHING is challenging and will likely result in breaks in treatment.

In regard to CD's confession, we have to take his claims seriously. But he quite possibly can't currently filter out reality from the non-reality-but-is-super-real dialogue that is running through his head. So maybe he did kill 2 people when he was 15. Or maybe he was 15 when he killed people in his mind. Or maybe he killed 2 people in '15. Or maybe he killed 2 people on the 15th of some month. Or maybe he killed 15 people with 2 other people.

Below is a link with some helpful information about schizophrenia. But this info is just touching the surface of the complications and nuances of this type of psychopathology.

https://www.theravive.com/therapedia/schizophrenia-disorder-dsm--5-295.90-(f20.9)

Are you an MD a PhD or a psychologist? Honestly curious. You seem to feel strongly about this.


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[Karinna]

A diagnosis of Schizophrenia is certainly one that a mental health professional does not take lightly and requires examination and, ideally, insight of behaviors by family members over the course of several visits. Diagnosis requires that negative symptoms (functioning below what is standard or 'normal' for age, demographic, etc) and positive symptoms (functioning beyond what is standard or normal - i.e delusions, hallucinations) FOR AT LEAST 6 MONTHS while having positive symptoms for at least one month. Factors such as influences of drugs and other mental illnesses must first be ruled out.

Schizophrenia has an average onset in the mid/late teens to early 20s for men. It is not uncommon to find that those diagnosed at that age have had symptoms since childhood and either hid it due to shame or simply did not know that those symptoms were not normal. Additionally, the prodromal stage of a state or period of psychosis can be quite difficult to identify - family members, a professional, and even the individual with schizophrenia may not recognize the warning signs. There have been reports that CD has exhibited some troubling signs and run-ins with the police since the age of 14. It is not unreasonable to hypothesize that CD was exhibiting features of mental illness that would result in the onset of schizophrenia.

A state of schizophrenic psychosis, which is possibly what CD was in when he committed the horrific murders, can have a slow onset or a very rapid one. Oftentimes, it is accompanied by external stressors that the person cannot deal with due to limited faculties. Now that CD has accumulated significant stressors, he quite possibly does not know what is and is not reality. Even over the course of the few days between his initial weapons charge to his confession, there was a noticeable change in his gross motor functioning while walking and his 3rd mugshot after his confession shows him unfocused and slightly cross eyed - all hinting to catatonic behavior, a very common place for the schizophrenic to rest.

There are many misconceptions of schizophrenia. The lucky ones can complete higher education, hold down important and demanding jobs, and live independently. Many people with schizophrenia are very harmless. But there is also a percentage (sorry don't know it off the top of my head - I want to say 30 or so percent) that are in jail for committing crimes. Typically those with schizophrenia who behave violently have a history, beginning in childhood, of aggressive or violent behavior.

Mental illness is not at fault here with CD - the negligence of treatment and monitoring of symptoms of psychosis is - and those with schizophrenia very very often have the facilities to accept and manage treatment. We do not know what happened behind closed doors at the DiNardo house, but unless he signed over his rights to control his treatment to his parents, he is liable for his actions. And when it comes to someone with schizophrenia in treatment, continuously and consistently taking the prescribed dosage of ANYTHING is challenging and will likely result in breaks in treatment.

In regard to CD's confession, we have to take his claims seriously. But he quite possibly can't currently filter out reality from the non-reality-but-is-super-real dialogue that is running through his head. So maybe he did kill 2 people when he was 15. Or maybe he was 15 when he killed people in his mind. Or maybe he killed 2 people in '15. Or maybe he killed 2 people on the 15th of some month. Or maybe he killed 15 people with 2 other people.

Below is a link with some helpful information about schizophrenia. But this info is just touching the surface of the complications and nuances of this type of psychopathology.

https://www.theravive.com/therapedia/schizophrenia-disorder-dsm--5-295.90-(f20.9)

Thankyou for posting up the info. and link.