PA - infant Leon Katz murdered, twin injured, allegedly by babysitter, Pittsburgh- June 24, 2024

[Arkay]

no one has said how much these babies weighed or if they were born full term- we were told in articles- healthy up to this point. I think 6.5 week old twins could be small...and fragile. IMO

What is a healthy baby weight for twins?


Twins and triplets often don't have a chance to reach a healthy weight before they're born. While the average single baby weighs 7 pounds at birth, the average twin weighs 5.5 pounds.
View attachment 529063

Pregnant with twins: premature birth and other complications - BabyCenter​

I’ve posted somewhere in this thread…my identical twin and I were born a month early.

I was 3 lbs. 15 oz., and my twin was 5 lbs. 4 oz.

We spent a month in the incubator, which gave us time to catch up to a full-term baby.

It is true that twins are often born early and hence at lower individual weights.

It is very difficult for a woman to go through the full nine months when she is carrying multiples. If my sister’s and my weight were combined, it would be a big baby…but here there are two heads, four arms, four legs. Endless kicking. Eventually the mother’s body says “time’s up.”

All babies are fragile at six weeks old. If these twins were small, as I imagine they were, they were that much more delicate.

Yet the most robust infant is entirely helpless at six weeks old. Life entirely depends on the adult(s) taking care of them.

As clearly did not happen here when the twins were being supervised by NV.

Jmo

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

You thought "maybe being carried awkwardly in a baby carrier, a strap snagging and catching," and that seems a logical possible reason. We need to back up and get some details of that day. I want to know how AK was acting on the outing that day.

RSBM
If I remember correctly, he had two bruises below the belly button, swollen and red (inflamed?) penis and the end of the penis was red and sore?

This would correlate to being strapped into something, either straps or diapers, awkwardly, hastily, or even too tightly.

I am looking for reasons why this isn't abuse because it is easier to understand non-violent reasons ten times, if not more, than trying to reason the opposite.
There are no 'reasons' when it comes to the opposite. As humans, we try to understand a situation through different avenues, like context, experience, knowledge gained through life, and objective facts. Yet, when it comes to crimes, we, as a consensus, can not compute. Finding reasons why it is not incomprehensible is all we can do.

 

[SMK777]

I am looking for reasons why this isn't abuse because it is easier to understand non-violent reasons ten times, if not more, than trying to reason the opposite.
There are no 'reasons' when it comes to the opposite. As humans, we try to understand a situation through different avenues, like context, experience, knowledge gained through life, and objective facts. Yet, when it comes to crimes, we, as a consensus, can not compute. Finding reasons why it is not incomprehensible is all we can do.

SBM
I am doing the same. If it turns out NV intentionally abused these fragile infants, I will accept that, and obviously medical professionals and prosecutors do in fact believe that. And we certainly know that such intentional crimes do occur.

In the meantime, I keep trying to find any evidence that points toward it all being unintentional, because as you note the other is incomprehensible. I’m hopeful that the truth of the matter will come out during the trial.

 

[SMK777]

I’ve posted somewhere in this thread…my identical twin and I were born a month early.

I was 3 lbs. 15 oz., and my twin was 5 lbs. 4 oz.

We spent a month in the incubator, which gave us time to catch up to a full-term baby.

It is true that twins are often born early and hence at lower individual weights.

It is very difficult for a woman to go through the full nine months when she is carrying multiples. If my sister’s and my weight were combined, it would be a big baby…but here there are two heads, four arms, four legs. Endless kicking. Eventually the mother’s body says “time’s up.”

All babies are fragile at six weeks old. If these twins were small, as I imagine they were, they were that much more delicate.

Yet the most robust infant is entirely helpless at six weeks old. Life entirely depends on the adult(s) taking care of them.

As clearly did not happen here when the twins were being supervised by NV.

Jmo

Yes, twins are always more delicate, and in their pictures these infants seemed small. And of course being only 6.5 weeks old made them very undeveloped and fragile.

 

[steeltowngirl]

RSBM
If I remember correctly, he had two bruises below the belly button, swollen and red (inflamed?) penis and the end of the penis was red and sore?

This would correlate to being strapped into something, either straps or diapers, awkwardly, hastily, or even too tightly.

I am looking for reasons why this isn't abuse because it is easier to understand non-violent reasons ten times, if not more, than trying to reason the opposite.
There are no 'reasons' when it comes to the opposite. As humans, we try to understand a situation through different avenues, like context, experience, knowledge gained through life, and objective facts. Yet, when it comes to crimes, we, as a consensus, can not compute. Finding reasons why it is not incomprehensible is all we can do.

Great post. I struggle with criminal charges in hot car deaths because humans are fallible and accidents happen. In this case, with a head injury in an infant so severe that it led to death, I lean towards intentional. Patiently waiting along with everyone here to learn more from the state and defense.

jmo

 

[SMK777]

In this case, with a head injury in an infant so severe that it led to death, I lean towards intentional

SBM
Yes, it’s the fact that the skull fracture was so severe as to be fatal, that gives stern pause. Unless at that age it can happen by accident. I have heard numerous accounts, even within my own family, of infants rolling off changing tables and beds, and although distressing, the outcomes were not fatal. As you state, we need more details , information, and expert opinions.

 

[katsrfun]

This is a theoretical question. If NV goes to court and is found not guilty, then that leaves the question of who did it, and there is only one basic alternative that we are aware of. Do the police keep investigating to find out what happened. I know they can only try NV once for the same crime, and she has the right to a speedy trial. There doesn't seem to be any one left other than the parents, and I don't know how that could even work. However, if it isn't NV and no one else was there, do they leave the baby with the parents, and just move forward like they don't know who did it, and "oh well". I mean, basically, could they leave the baby in the care of the people who possibly caused the death of the other twin? Who is taking care of that twin now, do we know. This is just a thought I had, and I hope it was okay to post. I would like to know the opinion of other posters. Thank You. MOO. Katt

 

[iamshadow21]

DBM

 

[SMK777]

This is a theoretical question. If NV goes to court and is found not guilty, then that leaves the question of who did it, and there is only one basic alternative that we are aware of. Do the police keep investigating to find out what happened. I know they can only try NV once for the same crime, and she has the right to a speedy trial. There doesn't seem to be any one left other than the parents, and I don't know how that could even work. However, if it isn't NV and no one else was there, do they leave the baby with the parents, and just move forward like they don't know who did it, and "oh well". I mean, basically, could they leave the baby in the care of the people who possibly caused the death of the other twin? Who is taking care of that twin now, do we know. This is just a thought I had, and I hope it was okay to post. I would like to know the opinion of other posters. Thank You. MOO. Katt

It’s a legitimate question. It reminds me of when Amanda Knox and Rafael were found not guilty, and the victim’s mother asked, “Then who are these others that the killer was supposed to have acted in concert with?”

I think if NV is NOT convicted of abuse and murder, she would STILL be found guilty of some kind of unintentional negligence. OTHERWISE, it would definitely lead to the quandary you describe: If she did nothing wrong, then who did? Of course she was alone with Leon, so it would have to be proven that he had the fractures prior to that, which is a huge stretch.

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

imagine a friend calling and telling you, I was babysitting twin boys age 6.5 weeks. I noticed swelling and redness in the diaper area on one, notified the parents, and now I am accused! You would be reassuring her, until she blurted out, and then while they were at the ER, I was watching the other twin and he fell out of his bouncer and died!

SBM. My laughing response was simply because this is so preposterous. (and yet this is how that call would have to go, based on what has been reported so far) Nothing about this tragedy is funny.

 

[SMK777]

SBM. My laughing response was simply because this is so preposterous. (and yet this is how that call would have to go, based on what has been reported so far) Nothing about this tragedy is funny.

I understood perfectly. My proposing that conversation was also not to mock the tragedy of this situation, but rather to show just how absurd the story would sound to anyone hearing it. You grasped the issue correctly!

 

[DoctorRose]

RSBM
If I remember correctly, he had two bruises below the belly button, swollen and red (inflamed?) penis and the end of the penis was red and sore?

This would correlate to being strapped into something, either straps or diapers, awkwardly, hastily, or even too tightly.

I am looking for reasons why this isn't abuse because it is easier to understand non-violent reasons ten times, if not more, than trying to reason the opposite.
There are no 'reasons' when it comes to the opposite. As humans, we try to understand a situation through different avenues, like context, experience, knowledge gained through life, and objective facts. Yet, when it comes to crimes, we, as a consensus, can not compute. Finding reasons why it is not incomprehensible is all we can do.

The two bruises made me think they may be from someone tightly gripping or squeezing him, like a bruise where each thumb was for example. Pure speculation.

 

[steeltowngirl]

It’s a legitimate question. It reminds me of when Amanda Knox and Rafael were found not guilty, and the victim’s mother asked, “Then who are these others that the killer was supposed to have acted in concert with?”

I think if NV is NOT convicted of abuse and murder, she would STILL be found guilty of some kind of unintentional negligence. OTHERWISE, it would definitely lead to the quandary you describe: If she did nothing wrong, then who did? Of course she was alone with Leon, so it would have to be proven that he had the fractures prior to that, which is a huge stretch.

I agree. Based on what we know, there’s a good chance NV will either be found guilty (or plea) to a lesser charge.

If she were to be acquitted, I doubt that LE would investigate further. It would simply be a case of an inability to prove her guilt to a jury, BARD.

jmo

 

[SMK777]

I agree. Based on what we know, there’s a good chance NV will either be found guilty (or plea) to a lesser charge.

If she were to be acquitted, I doubt that LE would investigate further. It would simply be a case of an inability to prove her guilt to a jury, BARD.

jmo

Bolded by me
I would agree that would be far more likely, than going back to investigate and charge the parents.

 

[Curious Me]

Forgot when the next court date is, sometime this month of September? Does anyone know the next court date? It'll probably be rather short in duration. I'm used to how, most cases especially in CA, slowly go to trial, but I hope not in PA. Eager to get more details too. Usually, I've got more of a sense of whether likely innocence or guilt, but trying to hold off for more details in this case. In a holding pattern. I admit to being impatient to learn more. Prayers for the parents and AK now healing from a big loss.​

 

[SMK777]

Forgot when the next court date is, sometime this month of September? Does anyone know the next court date? It'll probably be rather short in duration. I'm used to how, most cases especially in CA, slowly go to trial, but I hope not in PA. Eager to get more details too. Usually, I've got more of a sense of whether likely innocence or guilt, but trying to hold off for more details in this case. In a holding pattern. I admit to being impatient to learn more. Prayers for the parents and AK now healing from a big loss.​

 

[aafromaa]

Am I the only one wondering if there may have been a video camera in the babies’ room? Perhaps just wishful thinking but it seems to me that either the state put the death penalty in play in hopes of taking it off the table for a plea deal OR they have more conclusive evidence than what we’ve heard come out that the doctor(s) said. If there was a camera, it’s reasonable that the parents would not have reviewed the footage before they took the first baby to the ER but likely reviewed it or turned it over to law enforcement after the death of the 2nd baby. It might explain why they used the term torture more than just the doctor’s conclusions that it was abuse without knowing specifically what was done to the children. Just a possibility I’m throwing out there because it keeps popping in my head - not anything I’ve read or seen anything about anywhere.

 

[Rosydecember]

This is a theoretical question. If NV goes to court and is found not guilty, then that leaves the question of who did it, and there is only one basic alternative that we are aware of. Do the police keep investigating to find out what happened. I know they can only try NV once for the same crime, and she has the right to a speedy trial. There doesn't seem to be any one left other than the parents, and I don't know how that could even work. However, if it isn't NV and no one else was there, do they leave the baby with the parents, and just move forward like they don't know who did it, and "oh well". I mean, basically, could they leave the baby in the care of the people who possibly caused the death of the other twin? Who is taking care of that twin now, do we know. This is just a thought I had, and I hope it was okay to post. I would like to know the opinion of other posters. Thank You. MOO. Katt

But if NV was found not guilty, that doesn’t necessarily mean she she is truly not guilty. Think of Casey Anthony… she was found not guilty. Was someone else arrested? No, because Casey did not but prosecution did not prove BARD

 

[aafromaa]

This is a theoretical question. If NV goes to court and is found not guilty, then that leaves the question of who did it, and there is only one basic alternative that we are aware of. Do the police keep investigating to find out what happened. I know they can only try NV once for the same crime, and she has the right to a speedy trial. There doesn't seem to be any one left other than the parents, and I don't know how that could even work. However, if it isn't NV and no one else was there, do they leave the baby with the parents, and just move forward like they don't know who did it, and "oh well". I mean, basically, could they leave the baby in the care of the people who possibly caused the death of the other twin? Who is taking care of that twin now, do we know. This is just a thought I had, and I hope it was okay to post. I would like to know the opinion of other posters. Thank You. MOO. Katt

MOO but I think if LE or social workers had anything to show even possible involvement of the parents that the living baby would have been removed from their custody that night. I don’t know what LE has but I think it is more than the doctors’ conclusions that it was abuse as that doesn’t give any indication as to who committed the abuse. I don’t know what they have but I really think they have something that tells them conclusively that it was NV and that it was intentional.

I won’t be surprised if a mental illness defense is used in this case. I think they have evidence - whatever it is - and I think that NV will admit to what she did but will use mental illness as the reason she could not stop herself from doing it. I think that PA has both an insanity defense and a guilty but mentally ill defense. I think the insanity defense would require showing she didn’t know what she was doing was wrong and I do not think that is possible. But the guilty with mentally ill can be shown by establishing a mental illness and that she couldn’t stop herself even though she knew it was wrong. Either one can get treatment in a mental health facility instead of prison and would take death penalty off the table if successfully presented.

I don’t think that NV can successfully defend against whatever evidence it is they have simply by saying I didn’t do anything to the first baby and it was an accident with the 2nd one. It really wouldn’t take much evidence at all to overcome that position. And I think the lawyer saying something along the lines of his client is distraught because these were her friends instead of she didn’t intentionally hurt either child and her heart breaks for their parents is a hint that a mental illness defense could be forthcoming.

 

[Curious Me]

Am I the only one wondering if there may have been a video camera in the babies’ room? Perhaps just wishful thinking but it seems to me that either the state put the death penalty in play in hopes of taking it off the table for a plea deal OR they have more conclusive evidence than what we’ve heard come out that the doctor(s) said. If there was a camera,... snipped to reply

You're one of the few bringing it up, @aafromaa. It would make sense if there were baby monitors that record. I see what your getting at that the DP was suddenly put on the table. I thought of nanny cams, but haven't heard a hint of whether they had any camera type devices set up. Twins, you want to hear them from another room, and now days they have recording capabilities. I brought my kids up in another time, so don't know a great deal about the baby monitors or nanny cams being used now days. Would they have monitors in rooms other than just a bedroom? ​