Found Deceased PA - Paul Kochu, 22, Allegheny County, 17 Dec 2014 - #2

[TMAN2014]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...64-Youngstown-25-Sept-2011&highlight=donofrio

This is the regular thread for Donofrio. Astonishingly, it took a year for him to be identified.

Reading this case makes me think even more that there is a good chance they could have found Paul in the Ohio River. Donofrio's body travelled 130 miles down the Ohio. I am not sure of the distance from Pittsburgh to Wheeling, WVA, but it is certainly credible that it could be Paul.

 

[Detective Klimpt]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...64-Youngstown-25-Sept-2011&highlight=donofrio

This is the regular thread for Donofrio. Astonishingly, it took a year for him to be identified.

Reading this case makes me think even more that there is a good chance they could have found Paul in the Ohio River. Donofrio's body travelled 130 miles down the Ohio. I am not sure of the distance from Pittsburgh to Wheeling, WVA, but it is certainly credible that it could be Paul.

A year to be identified:gaah: I wonder why? Gosh, I hope that isn't the case with the two recent bodies. Couldn't they at least eliminate Paul as being one of them?

I thought someone just posted it is 60 miles from Pittsburgh to Wheeling. That's not far. Paul has been missing 90 days, so if the body traveled only 1 mile per day it would be in Wheeling or farther.

 

[MEM93]

Did he lack dentals or DNA? Maybe only remains were found and not a body? A year seems awfully long, there must have been something else to delay it. Hmmmm, will have to read up on him.

 

[carbuff]

A year to be identified:gaah: I wonder why? Gosh, I hope that isn't the case with the two recent bodies. Couldn't they at least eliminate Paul as being one of them?

I thought someone just posted it is 60 miles from Pittsburgh to Wheeling. That's not far. Paul has been missing 90 days, so if the body traveled only 1 mile per day it would be in Wheeling or farther.

Over in the unidentified forum, we have some people who were pulled from the Ohio and other rivers who have never been identified. It can be more difficult than it seems, since the clothing (and hence ID) is often stripped from the body, and the remains are usually not in good shape after being tumbled around in the water.

 

[Detective Klimpt]

Over in the unidentified forum, we have some people who were pulled from the Ohio and other rivers who have never been identified. It can be more difficult than it seems, since the clothing (and hence ID) is often stripped from the body, and the remains are usually not in good shape after being tumbled around in the water.

Forgive me for the dumb question I'm about to ask. Can't you get DNA from bones? They could get paul's dads DNA and compare it to the DNA from Paul's bones.

 

[MEM93]

Yes. Or would they take it from his mother or does it not matter?

I had a friend who lost a sibling and the authorities asked for a sibling sample instead of a parent but that situation was very different.

 

[Treelights]

Yes. Or would they take it from his mother or does it not matter?

I had a friend who lost a sibling and the authorities asked for a sibling sample instead of a parent but that situation was very different.

"Nuclear DNA is the genetic material inherited from both parents: half from the mother and half from the father. It is found in the nucleus of each cell and is unique to each individual (except in cases of identical twins). Nuclear DNA is a powerful identifier and has been used for forensic purposes for decades. Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA)—which is found in the mitochondria of a cell, outside the nucleus—is inherited solely from the mother and is not unique. Everyone in the same maternal line, for generations, will have the same mtDNA. Its use as a forensic tool in narrowing the pool of possible donors of a sample is a more recent development."

http://nij.gov/journals/256/pages/missing-persons.aspx

From same link:

"CODIS(mp) (Combined DNA Index System for Missing Persons): Also known as the National Missing Person DNA Database (NMPDD), CODIS(mp) is a database specifically designed to assemble data on missing persons and unidentified human remains cases. It was created in 2000 by the FBI using existing portions of the CODIS database. The searchable database includes information on nuclear and mitochondrial DNA obtained from unidentified remains, relatives of missing persons, and personal reference samples. Having both types of DNA profiles maximizes the potential for a successful identification."

 

[Treelights]

Also this link about Nuclear DNA:

"Nuclear DNA analysis also contains a subcategory of analysis associated with paternal lineage. Y-STR analysis targets areas of the nuclear DNA passed only from father to son. While this method of analysis is not unique to a specific individual, Y-STRs are used in conjunction with STR data for Missing Person cases at NDIS."

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/biometric-analysis/codis/codis_brochure

 

[Miss Muffet]

Prior reading about the Donofrio case in this thread, I was hoping the Kochu's get a second autopsy if one of these bodies is Paul because I didn't trust the idea of a WV autopsy

It turns out the reason Donofrio's body wasn't identified for a year after being pulled from the river is because it sat in the morgue for a year before WV bothered to enter the dental and physical description information into the national database.

http://www.vindy.com/news/2013/apr/11/work-to-id-donofrio-stalled-in-wv/

Can you believe that?!?!? Utter incompetence. :gaah:

Oh, and of course, the autopsy was inconclusive.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Paul's case is high visibility, which shouldn't effect the diligence of the Coroner's office, but no doubt it does. I am hopeful we will hear something, if only preliminary, quite soon.

 

[Miss Muffet]

Paul's case is high visibility, which shouldn't effect the diligence of the Coroner's office, but no doubt it does. I am hopeful we will hear something, if only preliminary, quite soon.

Paul's case shouldn't have this problem with delayed identification because the Kochu's contacted WV on their own. The Donofrio family had no idea about identifying a body pulled from the Ohio a year after his disappearance.

But I'd still get a second autopsy. I wouldn't trust a WV autopsy to be accurate---medical examiners don't even have to be doctors in WV (see link).

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...gs-to-know/how-qualified-is-your-coroner.html

We had a second autopsy on my sister in Pittsburgh after one was done in southern VA. The VA medical examiner got the cause of death right, but completely missed what caused the cause of death. Looked like natural causes, but it wasn't---something was done to cause her to die of what appeared to be natural causes. The Pittsburgh medical examiner figured it out right away

Anyway, I can't imagine the pain Paul's family is going through not knowing. If he is dead, I hope one of these bodies is his so the family can have some answers and closure.

 

[Sweetgrits]

Just marking my spot

 

[AMWord]

I wouldn't be surprised if the family had another autopsy for second opinion in general.

 

[Detective Klimpt]

Does the autopsy need to be completed and COD determine before we can get an ID on the bodies?

 

[Treelights]

Does the autopsy need to be completed and COD determine before we can get an ID on the bodies?

I wonder if that would be a judgment call for the family or law enforcement?

If something nefarious happened to Paul by someone else, perhaps it would be helpful to have all the information
available of the autopsy before going forward with ID.

If Paul drowned accidentally or if it was suicide, perhaps the family or LE still would want to know the results before moving forward
with the ID of the Unidentified Individual.

In the case of Shirley Dermond from Eatonton, Georgia:

"Putnam County Sheriff Howard Sills told reporters Friday he is “fairly confident” a body pulled from Lake Oconee Friday afternoon was that of Shirley Dermond, missing for two weeks."

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/body-found-at-lake-oconee/nfyLR/

"A crime laboratory will definitively determine whether the remains are those of Shirley Dermond, and establish a cause of death in a case that has perplexed investigators in central Georgia."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/16/shirley-dermond_n_5340926.html

With other information released on a later date about Shirley and how she was found, I can see why they were confident it was Shirley.

With this Unidentified Person found in WV, maybe they just don't know yet, because certain markers aren't there, like clothing, and couldn't tell the race, etc.
Maybe they need the autopsy in this particular case to determine who this person is, or who this person is not.

IMOO.

 

[Miss Muffet]

Identification and autopsy will likely be done simultaneously. Identification involves comparing dental records and physical characteristics, and DNA if a match isn't possible via dental and physical characteristics. Since DNA takes time, it's entirely possible the autopsy and COD will be determined long before identification is determined.

It doesn't make sense to me to think anyone would wait until a COD to make a decision about going forward with identification. Since Paul's dental records and fingerprints are in the national database, the Kochus can't prevent identification from being done anyway. I can't imagine the Kochus not going forward with a DNA test if this body remains a John Doe after examination and comparison to the national database regardless of the COD.

 

[Detective Klimpt]

I just read that a paternity DNA test takes 2 days from the time the sample arrives at the lab.

 

[Treelights]

Identification and autopsy will likely be done simultaneously. Identification involves comparing dental records and physical characteristics, and DNA if a match isn't possible via dental and physical characteristics. Since DNA takes time, it's entirely possible the autopsy and COD will be determined long before identification is determined.

It doesn't make sense to me to think anyone would wait until a COD to make a decision about going forward with identification. Since Paul's dental records and fingerprints are in the national database, the Kochus can't prevent identification from being done anyway. I can't imagine the Kochus not going forward with a DNA test if this body remains a John Doe after examination and comparison to the national database regardless of the COD.

Since the autopsy results are a part of a decedent's confidential records, perhaps the COD won't be revealed. Perhaps that is up to the family to decide to reveal that if they choose? IMOO.

http://www.dhhr.wv.gov/ocme/Document_Request/Pages/Document requests.aspx

 

[Miss Muffet]

Since the autopsy results are a part of a decedent's confidential records, perhaps the COD won't be revealed. Perhaps that is up to the family to decide to reveal that if they choose? IMOO.

http://www.dhhr.wv.gov/ocme/Document_Request/Pages/Document requests.aspx

That's a good question and an excellent indication that the Kochus won't have an opportunity to base pursing identity on waiting to hear COD. The medical examiner wouldn't share the COD with the Kochus unless they were identified as his relatives via identifying the body. Like I said, I can't imagine them not wanting to pursue identity under any scenario if the body remains a John Doe who could possibly be Paul. Only some detail excluding Paul, like the ME determining the body is AA, would make them drop pursuit of identity, IMO. .

If the COD is suicide or accidental drowning, I'm sure it's up to the Kochus to release the COD publicly, but I can't imagine the Kochus withholding those CODs from the public after so many people were actively involved in recovering Paul. If it's murder, the Kochus wishes are probably irrelevant because LE has full authority in a murder investigation and can determine what to release and not to release to the public without the Kochus' permission.

 

[Miss Muffet]

I just read that a paternity DNA test takes 2 days from the time the sample arrives at the lab.

The standard two days is for private paternity testing companies or the actual time it takes to complete the actual test without any other time considerations. Forensic laboratories can take weeks to months due to backlog and procedures required for investigations. How long it actually takes depends on which laboratory the DNA is sent.

http://intrensic.blogspot.com/2009/06/why-does-dna-testing-take-so-long.html

http://www.patc.com/weeklyarticles/dna-timeline.shtml

http://www.gizmag.com/rapid-dna-testing/15950/

http://pennsylvaniamissing.com/homepage/forensicinformation.html