PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #12

[J. J. in Phila]

I thought I heard that he was seen getting into a woman's car and that they found cigarette butts or some other evidence that someone had been smoking in his car and he was a rabid anti-smoker. I'm probably remembering that wrong.

No on the car. The woman was only seen in the SoS; RFG was seen in the SoS on both 4/15 and 4/16. While there has been some suggestion that the woman was seen with him on both days, I cannot confirm Saturday 4/16.

The sent of cigarette smoke was found when the Mini was opened and there was a tiny amount of ash on the passenger sign floor. There were butts found outside where the car was parked in the lot. DNA was recovered, but it didn't match any database.

It is possible that someone smoking leaned into the passenger window and that accounts for it.

Probably more about the Mini than you ever wanted to know.

 

[jmix]

I've long taken the position that if RFG walked away, I would not be looking for him. It is not illegal to leave voluntarily, and I am unaware of any reason to leave to avoid prosecution. If he left voluntarily, I am very much inclined to leave him alone. The PSP may not be, if he is a witness in the PSP 3 case.

I should also add that Brenda Heist, a woman with a high school diploma, no work experience in law enforcement, and zero resources, hid for 11 years. I think RFG is, by far, better equiped than her.

Agreed.

While things seemed to be going well with his girlfriend, appearances can be deceiving. And he seems to have been under some stress and to have planned to be alone in the area where his car was found. That, to me, makes a voluntary disappearance somewhat more probable than an involuntary one.
After all, someone would have needed to follow him or have a pre-arranged kidnapping plan to take a grown man captive and then lead him away to his death.

Also the river nearby is too shallow and the woods not isolated enough for him to walk into them, commit suicide and not have his body be found by now.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Playing devil's advocate and snipping.

Agreed.

While things seemed to be going well with his girlfriend, appearances can be deceiving. And he seems to have been under some stress and to have planned to be alone in the area where his car was found. That, to me, makes a voluntary disappearance somewhat more probable than an involuntary one.

He was definitely acting unusually in the weeks before he vanished. That points away from foul play, but could point any voluntary act.

After all, someone would have needed to follow him or have a pre-arranged kidnapping plan to take a grown man captive and then lead him away to his death.

Following him would have been difficult, because it is a 50 mile drive with several turns. Further, RFG was seen around Lewisburg on 4/15 for about 5-6 hours, both driving and on foot.

A clandestine meeting is possible. A work related one is unlikely, because of a lack of notes, and no great reason to keep such a meeting secret.

Also the river nearby is too shallow and the woods not isolated enough for him to walk into them, commit suicide and not have his body be found by now.

The river was just below flood stage, but there were massive and repeated searches.

There is a wetland area across the bridge where a body could be hidden, though I agree that it is unlikely.

A local pastor in Lewisburg that was about to be charged with child molestation that went into the woods in 2009-10 and hung himself. His remains were discovered about 10 months later.

 

[SeekingJana]

Was it transferred because of new evidence?

A better or deeper financial audit?

IF FBI believes he went to Slovenia, then why wasn't the case transferred to the FBI or CIA? The PSP can't investigate internationally, can it?

I think the State Police or the Pennsylvania Bureau of Investigation should always have had the case, because Lewisburg is outside the jurisdiction of the very small Bellefonte Police Department and their " task force".
I'm mostly wondering why it didn't get bumped up to the FBI.

I don't know if he's dead or alive, of course, but it certainly seems to me that he would NOT be in Pennsylvania if he is alive... so why didn't the case go to the national investigative body ( the FBI) ?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped.

Was it transferred because of new evidence?

A better or deeper financial audit?

IF FBI believes he went to Slovenia, then why wasn't the case transferred to the FBI or CIA? The PSP can't investigate internationally, can it?

They claimed it was lack of resources, which could be the reason. The CIA doesn't investigate, as such. The PSP may have better foreign contacts. They should have better financial investigators.

The FBI would be involved if a federal crime was committed, and so far, none has been suggested, or if requested. In most missing persons cases, they do not get directly involved.

Now, is the PSP looking for a victim, a witness, or both?

 

[lpshred]

Snipped

I don't know if he's dead or alive, of course, but it certainly seems to me that he would NOT be in Pennsylvania if he is alive... so why didn't the case go to the national investigative body ( the FBI) ?

Because they believe he was murdered in PA by someone from PA with leads to follow up in PA. The PSP major case team investigates major criminal activity in PA. Let's not kid ourselves about why they were assigned or what they're looking for.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped



Because they believe he was murdered in PA by someone from PA with leads to follow up in PA. The PSP major case team investigates major criminal activity in PA. Let's not kid ourselves about why they were assigned or what they're looking for.

I would not rely on that. In 2006, the Criminal Investigation Analysis Unit of the PSP (PSP-CIA), reviewed the case. That was contemporaneous with the time that the computer searches were discovered, even though they were not released until 4/15/2009 (which just happened to be an election year for the DA).

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archives/article_c16cab5f-9a0b-5d63-9449-3ce07870ed0d.html

I would not kid anyone with the assumption that this points to a suspicion of foul play.

 

[lpshred]

I would not rely on that. In 2006, the Criminal Investigation Analysis Unit of the PSP (PSP-CIA), reviewed the case. That was contemporaneous with the time that the computer searches were discovered, even though they were not released until 4/15/2009 (which just happened to be an election year for the DA).

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archives/article_c16cab5f-9a0b-5d63-9449-3ce07870ed0d.html

I would not kid anyone with the assumption that this points to a suspicion of foul play.

Heaven forbid there's been a new lead in the 8 years since they looked at it last. I wouldn't kid anyone that bringing in the state's top criminal investigation unit this points to anything other than foul play in our own backyard.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Heaven forbid there's been a new lead in the 8 years since they looked at it last. I wouldn't kid anyone that bringing in the state's top criminal investigation unit this points to anything other than foul play in our own backyard.

However, the last "new lead," in terms of foul play, was discounted by police.

We do know of RFG's involvement in the 1998 investigation of Sandusky, in part being investigated by the PSP in regard to the PSU 3. We know that there is an expected trial and that a potential prosecution witness, RFG, is missing.

They may be looking for him, or at least what happened to him, for that purpose.

Gricar's role was not only mentioned in the GJ presentment in November 2011, but in the 2012 presentment.

 

[lpshred]

However, the last "new lead," in terms of foul play, was discounted by police.

We do know of RFG's involvement in the 1998 investigation of Sandusky, in part being investigated by the PSP in regard to the PSU 3. We know that there is an expected trial and that a potential prosecution witness, RFG, is missing.

They may be looking for him, or at least what happened to him, for that purpose.

Gricar's role was not only mentioned in the GJ presentment in November 2011, but in the 2012 presentment.

Except RG isn't missing, he's legally dead. If they thought there was any chance RG was alive, they would have made it known at his declaration of death hearing that they wanted him as a witness. The investigation of the PSU 3 was in full swing and they took a pass.

All of that means they think he's dead. Statewide major case squads don't get assigned 9 year old suicide cases. They get criminal homicide cases, which is what the bump to the PSP suggests.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Except RG isn't missing, he's legally dead. If they thought there was any chance RG was alive, they would have made it known at his declaration of death hearing that they wanted him as a witness. The investigation of the PSU 3 was in full swing and they took a pass.

In July 2011, they did not have any of those e-mails. Spanier was not charged until 11/12.

As for being legally dead, that probably would not make any difference. As has been noted here or in the previous thread, the standard is fairly low.

All of that means they think he's dead. Statewide major case squads don't get assigned 9 year old suicide cases. They get criminal homicide cases, which is what the bump to the PSP suggests.

Using that logic, Cindy Song is alive.

There could be resource issues, which is what they claimed. That the lead detective had been reassigned may have been part of that.

There may have also been the sense that there were too many connections to the locals, and thought it would have been cleaner for the PSP to handle it.

As indicated, the last time the PSP delved into this case, evidence pointing away from foul play surfaced.

 

[MissJ]

If he were leaving voluntarily why not take the hard drive with him. If he were leaving the country he wouldn't need to throw it away, just take it with him.

Also remember that LE thought that the McStay's left voluntarily and they were found dead. LE said there was no evidence of foul play.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

If he were leaving voluntarily why not take the hard drive with him. If he were leaving the country he wouldn't need to throw it away, just take it with him.

Also remember that LE thought that the McStay's left voluntarily and they were found dead. LE said there was no evidence of foul play.

I think the hard drive could have been traced.

The McStays remains were found in about a third of the time.

 

[MissJ]

The McStays were found accidentally, no one was looking. So I don't see the time as a factor.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The McStays were found accidentally, no one was looking. So I don't see the time as a factor.

That could describe most of Central PA. There is a lot of outdoor activity. In the case of the one other person who disappeared from Lewisburg since 2005. It was suicide, but his body was found within a year.

Further, the were a number of organized searches, that happened closer to the time of the disappearance, compared to the McStays.

 

[Trackergd]

Perhaps ironically, the decision to transfer the case was made around the time a few of us started looking at RFG's financials, thought Rickard was reassigned in September.

Respectfully snipped for space.

While I doubt it, it would be cool if the probing made someone curious and got the wheels rolling again.

 

[Trackergd]

JJ, you hear anything new?

Starting to get warm out. Still thinking of taking a trip out and look the area over.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ, you hear anything new?

Starting to get warm out. Still thinking of taking a trip out and look the area over.

No, nothing new, unfortunately.

It is possible something will be coming out in the PSU 3 trial.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I spoke a bit too soon. There is something related. Victim 6 will be getting some documentation related to Victim 6: http://www.centredaily.com/2014/03/18/4091149/some-freeh-investigation-material.html

 

[Trackergd]

That should be an interesting read.