PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #13

[Trackergd]

Why are you convinced it contained info that was damning to someone?

Isn't a simple explanation that he wanted to purge confidential data for cases, his notes, perhaps personal data prior to handing it back into the County???

Dumping the laptop and hard drive in the river rises above the norm for removing mundane personal or County information. Only RFG could have removed the laptop from the closet in his home. Somehow it got from his home to the river in Lewisburg. At least for part of that trip it is reasonable to assume it was in RFG's possession in the Mini (unless we wish to consider the entire event started at home and the phone call to P was made at the point of a gun). It does not give the impression that he intended to return it to the County. And if you are of the "foul play" theory, why (after dispatching RFG) would someone go to the trouble of driving it the rest of the way to Lewisburg, only to dump it in the river when there are a number of other options? Same with the Mini which could have been driven out of the area to a chop shop long before anyone realized RFG was missing. It's my opinion the mini was left there because RFG did not realize he was in danger, or he wanted to ensure it would be found and returned to P.

The laptop and hard drive were only found by chance. It lowers the probability of it being "planted". Planting it would have been better served by leaving it in the mini, on a park bench or somewhere else obvious. Having tossed shoes, socks and other items in rivers and creeks to test how far they would travel within a given time frame to establish a search area, I doubt it was anticipated the laptop would be found washed ashore, at least not near Lewisburg in the time frame whomever tossed it in needed to execute their plan.

The troubling thing for me is that RFG at that time had the means to completely wipe the data, yet the hard drive was removed from the laptop and both were dumped in the river.

 

[Trackergd]

That same bloodhound found no trace of RGs scent in or around the SOS where one of, perhaps the most credible, had said he saw Gricar inside standing and waiting. Sightings are at best 50/50.

As a professional you would know that cast off scent from and around his car would've existed. From the car, the laptop possbibly, or someone that had direct physical contact with Gricar.

I don't suggest that he wasn't 100% in Lewisburg just that everything known is not the most reliable.

As I said prior LE misidentified him in Utah. That is trained professionals and not ordinary citizens

The bloodhound picks up on skin cells. I am going to partially agree with you that it is possible that the skin cells were swept out of the car and onto the ground when the door was opened and why the scent was picked up only in that area (if in fact that is the case).

Huh....now I guess we are down to if the individuals who claim they saw RFG are credible. J.J. is at least one of the individuals that claim to have seen RFG 100% sure and someone who knew him and met with him on a regular basis? Did he have a conversation with anyone who rises to the level of a credible witness?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The bloodhound picks up on skin cells. I am going to partially agree with you that it is possible that the skin cells were swept out of the car and onto the ground when the door was opened and why the scent was picked up only in that area (if in fact that is the case).

Huh....now I guess we are down to if the individuals who claim they saw RFG are credible. J.J. is at least one of the individuals that claim to have seen RFG 100% sure and someone who knew him and met with him on a regular basis? Did he have a conversation with anyone who rises to the level of a credible witness?

Not in Lewisburg, but on the way, I know of witnesses.

As for the phone call, it was made from the cell phone very close Centre Hall. It was fairly close to where one of the witnesses spotted him. It also was at a point where RFG would be in Lewisburg by "lunch time."

How likely would it it be that the scent would be about 20 yards beyond the opened door, in that case?

 

[SuperSmith]

Dumping the laptop and hard drive in the river rises above the norm for removing mundane personal or County information. Only RFG could have removed the laptop from the closet in his home. Somehow it got from his home to the river in Lewisburg. At least for part of that trip it is reasonable to assume it was in RFG's possession in the Mini (unless we wish to consider the entire event started at home and the phone call to P was made at the point of a gun). It does not give the impression that he intended to return it to the County. And if you are of the "foul play" theory, why (after dispatching RFG) would someone go to the trouble of driving it the rest of the way to Lewisburg, only to dump it in the river when there are a number of other options? Same with the Mini which could have been driven out of the area to a chop shop long before anyone realized RFG was missing. It's my opinion the mini was left there because RFG did not realize he was in danger, or he wanted to ensure it would be found and returned to P.

The laptop and hard drive were only found by chance. It lowers the probability of it being "planted". Planting it would have been better served by leaving it in the mini, on a park bench or somewhere else obvious. Having tossed shoes, socks and other items in rivers and creeks to test how far they would travel within a given time frame to establish a search area, I doubt it was anticipated the laptop would be found washed ashore, at least not near Lewisburg in the time frame whomever tossed it in needed to execute their plan.

The troubling thing for me is that RFG at that time had the means to completely wipe the data, yet the hard drive was removed from the laptop and both were dumped in the river.

I'm trying to follow your thinking here. Can you share how you got to that it had to be RG who removed the laptop from the home and threw it in the river? Sounds like more assumptions.

 

[SuperSmith]

The bloodhound picks up on skin cells. I am going to partially agree with you that it is possible that the skin cells were swept out of the car and onto the ground when the door was opened and why the scent was picked up only in that area (if in fact that is the case).

Huh....now I guess we are down to if the individuals who claim they saw RFG are credible. J.J. is at least one of the individuals that claim to have seen RFG 100% sure and someone who knew him and met with him on a regular basis? Did he have a conversation with anyone who rises to the level of a credible witness?

What? JJ is not a reported eye witness of Gricar nor did he know him. You lost me there again. My point was that Bennett said he saw RG in the SOS yet no scent was found in or around the SOS.

 

[Trackergd]

Not in Lewisburg, but on the way, I know of witnesses.

As for the phone call, it was made from the cell phone very close Centre Hall. It was fairly close to where one of the witnesses spotted him. It also was at a point where RFG would be in Lewisburg by "lunch time."

How likely would it it be that the scent would be about 20 yards beyond the opened door, in that case?

I doubt it would be 20 yards away unless the car was moved, and if it were moved, there should have been two (or more) distinct scent spots.

 

[Trackergd]

I'm trying to follow your thinking here. Can you share how you got to that it had to be RG who removed the laptop from the home and threw it in the river? Sounds like more assumptions.

We are presented with only two individuals who knew the laptop was in the closet and would have removed it, RFG and P (unless you are considering that someone broke into the home when P was not there, knew where the laptop was and left without leaving any trace of a break in). Now unless you are going to introduce P as a suspect in this "event", who else is there?

I am no sure who threw the laptop in the river. I guess it depends on which camp you are in: 1) RFG was in Lewisburg or 2) RFG was nowhere near Lewisburg.

The cell phone call trace shows that RFG was headed in that general direction, so RFG, the Mini and the Laptop were at least part of the way to Lewisburg unless you have some other scenario you wish to share.

 

[Trackergd]

What? JJ is not a reported eye witness of Gricar nor did he know him. You lost me there again. My point was that Bennett said he saw RG in the SOS yet no scent was found in or around the SOS.

I was asking if JJ could review his notes and blogs to see who the witnesses were. I am discounting any scent in the SOS as it would have been contaminated and "watered down" by all the other scents, human and otherwise. Bloodhounds are good, but not foolproof.

 

[SuperSmith]

We are presented with only two individuals who knew the laptop was in the closet and would have removed it, RFG and P (unless you are considering that someone broke into the home when P was not there, knew where the laptop was and left without leaving any trace of a break in). Now unless you are going to introduce P as a suspect in this "event", who else is there?

I am no sure who threw the laptop in the river. I guess it depends on which camp you are in: 1) RFG was in Lewisburg or 2) RFG was nowhere near Lewisburg.

The cell phone call trace shows that RFG was headed in that general direction, so RFG, the Mini and the Laptop were at least part of the way to Lewisburg unless you have some other scenario you wish to share.

Whether RG was in Lewisbrg or not does not prove either way he threw it in the river

 

[SuperSmith]

We are presented with only two individuals who knew the laptop was in the closet and would have removed it, RFG and P (unless you are considering that someone broke into the home when P was not there, knew where the laptop was and left without leaving any trace of a break in). Now unless you are going to introduce P as a suspect in this "event", who else is there

I am no sure who threw the laptop in the river. I guess it depends on which camp you are in: 1) RFG was in Lewisburg or 2) RFG was nowhere near Lewisburg.

The cell phone call trace shows that RFG was headed in that general direction, so RFG, the Mini and the Laptop were at least part of the way to Lewisburg unless you have some other scenario you wish to share.

A friend may have known where it was kept and if your an assailant and wanted the laptop isn't the bedroom closet at the top of the list for places to search for it? You are assuming LE did a thorough search of the home. They didn't for your information and even neglected to interview neighbors

 

[J. J. in Phila]

What? JJ is not a reported eye witness of Gricar nor did he know him. You lost me there again. My point was that Bennett said he saw RG in the SOS yet no scent was found in or around the SOS.

Yes, but not in Lewisburg.

There were several witnesses who knew him, that saw him to the west of, or in, Centre Hall. The timeline does fit with RFG getting to Lewisburg around lunchtime. At that point 3-4 witnesses spotted him, in the Mini, across from the Packwood House.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

A friend may have known where it was kept and if your an assailant and wanted the laptop isn't the bedroom closet at the top of the list for places to search for it? You are assuming LE did a thorough search of the home. They didn't for your information and even neglected to interview neighbors

They did a walk through of the house. I would also not claim that they didn't talk to people who had routine contact with him that morning.

 

[Trackergd]

A friend may have known where it was kept and if your an assailant and wanted the laptop isn't the bedroom closet at the top of the list for places to search for it? You are assuming LE did a thorough search of the home. They didn't for your information and even neglected to interview neighbors

I had seen information posted a while back that there was a check of the house and interview of neighbors.

I seriously doubt that one or more individuals broke into RFG and P's house to recover a laptop and left no other evidence. Most of us would know if someone had been in our home. Little things that even an expert would fail to fix before leaving.

 

[SuperSmith]

They did a walk through of the house. I would also not claim that they didn't talk to people who had routine contact with him that morning.

I didn't claim that. To clarify I said neighbors

 

[SuperSmith]

I had seen information posted a while back that there was a check of the house and interview of neighbors.

I seriously doubt that one or more individuals broke into RFG and P's house to recover a laptop and left no other evidence. Most of us would know if someone had been in our home. Little things that even an expert would fail to fix before leaving.

Well there enlies the problem with this case and what sparks debate. While you cannot envision my scenarios I in turn think they are very realistic and possible.

 

[SuperSmith]

I had seen information posted a while back that there was a check of the house and interview of neighbors.

I seriously doubt that one or more individuals broke into RFG and P's house to recover a laptop and left no other evidence. Most of us would know if someone had been in our home. Little things that even an expert would fail to fix before leaving.

On your point PF spent 6 hours in her own home not realizing the laptop was missing until she was asked for it by police.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

On your point PF spent 6 hours in her own home not realizing the laptop was missing until she was asked for it by police.

The laptop was stored in a case in a closet. If someone who did not know where it would be found was looking for it, there would be evidence of the search.

Also, one witness saw RFG fiddling with the laptop in Lewisburg.

 

[SuperSmith]

The laptop was stored in a case in a closet. If someone who did not know where it would be found was looking for it, there would be evidence of the search.

Also, one witness saw RFG fiddling with the laptop in Lewisburg.

The whole laptop thing is perplexing. If Gricar had a dire need to get rid of the laptop and it's content and the walkway from his life wouldn't a smart man dispose of it more discreetly? Perhaps in a dumpster at a fast food joint or even in his own trash? If water was thought to be needed then why not at Raystown lake where he was said to be the day before? The laptop in the river near his car screams of someone ditching it in a hurry and not thought out. That goes against the character of an intelligent man such as him. Wouldn't the laptop and car in two completely different locations be a better move if disappearing? If suicide is the thought than who cares what's on the computer?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The whole laptop thing is perplexing. If Gricar had a dire need to get rid of the laptop and it's content and the walkway from his life wouldn't a smart man dispose of it more discreetly? Perhaps in a dumpster at a fast food joint or even in his own trash? If water was thought to be needed then why not at Raystown lake where he was said to be the day before? The laptop in the river near his car screams of someone ditching it in a hurry and not thought out. That goes against the character of an intelligent man such as him. Wouldn't the laptop and car in two completely different locations be a better move if disappearing? If suicide is the thought than who cares what's on the computer?

No, this would be an ideal way. Nobody could stumble across it in the water. As it was, the laptop was not found for 3 1/2 months. It was several hundred yards from the Mini.

It is possible that RFG was planning to toss it at Rayston lake, but spotted by someone first.

 

[Trackergd]

Well there enlies the problem with this case and what sparks debate. While you cannot envision my scenarios I in turn think they are very realistic and possible.

Debate is healthy and forces each of us to think outside our own pet scenario limits. I can envision your scenarios, yet politely disagree with one or more elements. It's called civility.

To me, there are too many questions yet unanswered to hard pin this case to any specific scenario. What I am attempting to do is rate each element by probability and look at the big picture.

I don't see any specific case that RFG handled that would raise the ire of an individual to go to the trouble of attempting to lure RFG into a elaborate trap, murder him and dispose of the body in a manner that it would not be found. Considering the disposal of the laptop, IF it was done by someone other than RFG, it gives the appearance of being rushed and sloppy since there are much better ways of disposing of it, such as in a deep hole with the body or down an abandoned coal mine vent shaft to name two. The exception is the Sandusky case. Lots of big money, personal reputations, a regional economy and a legacy at risk. The motive may have been "cut the head off" and the digging will stop with regard to victim 1.

And for the sake of debate, "if" RFG was the one who disposed of the laptop, what in your mind would rise to the level of wiping the data with software, then dismantling the drive from the laptop and then tossing them in the river for good measure? If JJ's source is correct and RFG was seen fiddling with the laptop, it is reasonable to assume it was wiping the drive (and why the software CD or Floppy was not found), then removing the drive.