PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #13

[J. J. in Phila]

At what level of vigor is this case still being investigated by the PSP?

Short answer, low.

Kidnapping, at the initial stages, is virtually impossible. Being lured into a situation where he would voluntarily leave from Lewisburg and then be held, is not.

 

[MissJ]

Two points on different posts:

1. Roy's wife said the incident with the airplane crash never happened. I checked the records of air crashes 1992-95, there was only one that was mechanical and that was a fire.

2. They have determined that both bi polar depression and an increased risk for people with bi polar depression to commit suicide can be genetic. The latter was suspected in 2005 (and 1996), but it wasn't proven until 2011.

Most types of depression are in fact hereditary. That has been known for many years. Therefore suicide would be also....

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Most types of depression are in fact hereditary. That has been known for many years. Therefore suicide would be also....

In 2011, they actually found a genetic link with people depressed that also commit suicide. http://www.sciencedaily.com/release...n=genetic-link-to-suicidal-behavior-confirmed It was long suspected, as in the case of the Hemingway family.


The argument against suicide is no body.

 

[MissJ]

In 2011, they actually found a genetic link with people depressed that also commit suicide. http://www.sciencedaily.com/release...n=genetic-link-to-suicidal-behavior-confirmed It was long suspected, as in the case of the Hemingway family.


The argument against suicide is no body.

Exactly. You notice the stats for suicide and mental illness also in the study.

 

[Trackergd]

In 2011, they actually found a genetic link with people depressed that also commit suicide. http://www.sciencedaily.com/release...n=genetic-link-to-suicidal-behavior-confirmed It was long suspected, as in the case of the Hemingway family.


The argument against suicide is no body.

Or a body as yet undiscovered.

My fear is that he may have gone into the river and not been detected. If that is the case, the evidence is gone, or at least what is now left would only be found by accident and this thread would continue unabated with speculation, frustration and attempts at proof by assertion.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Or a body as yet undiscovered.

My fear is that he may have gone into the river and not been detected. If that is the case, the evidence is gone, or at least what is now left would only be found by accident and this thread would continue unabated with speculation, frustration and attempts at proof by assertion.

I could not find a single case where someone was lost in that branch of the river and never recovered. In the other branch. yes, but not there.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

http://www.statecollege.com/mobile/news/5-questions/what-happened-to-ray-gricar,1463427/

Just noting something that can up in the article that we have discussed: "Gone were his wallet, keys, sunglasses, and county-issued laptop, which police would later say he took from home minus its case and power source." BBM

The reason they believe this is that LE has a witness that saw RFG in Lewisburg win the Mini doing something with the laptop. The witnesses reported prior to public disclosure that the laptop was missing, which was late in the week.

Now, that is only strong evidence that RFG took the laptop with him. It could play into suicide or walkaway. We also know of long term interest on RFG's part to get rid of the data on the laptop. I would submit that, if he was planning to be in Lewisburg, he might have decided it was a good spot to dispose of it, even if he planned to return home. It would not preclude foul play, as it could have been a coincidence. In other words, he could have planned to go to Lewisburg for some other reason and decided that it would be a good place to toss the laptop.

 

[Trackergd]

Just noting something that can up in the article that we have discussed: "Gone were his wallet, keys, sunglasses, and county-issued laptop, which police would later say he took from home minus its case and power source." BBM

The reason they believe this is that LE has a witness that saw RFG in Lewisburg win the Mini doing something with the laptop. The witnesses reported prior to public disclosure that the laptop was missing, which was late in the week.

Now, that is only strong evidence that RFG took the laptop with him. It could play into suicide or walkaway. We also know of long term interest on RFG's part to get rid of the data on the laptop. I would submit that, if he was planning to be in Lewisburg, he might have decided it was a good spot to dispose of it, even if he planned to return home. It would not preclude foul play, as it could have been a coincidence. In other words, he could have planned to go to Lewisburg for some other reason and decided that it would be a good place to toss the laptop.

True, but we also have some information that leads to suspicion that he was attempting to dispose of it in a lake prior to that. If we take the information about the prior attempt as having a high potential for accuracy and the fact that it was found in the river, it's hard to say he "impulsively" disposed of it in the river. To me it's looks like the trip to dispose of it was masked by "a day of shopping" as he told PF and does not point at any one of the three scenarios to the exclusion of the others. He left the case and the power supply at home with no attempt to dispose of them which seems odd. I strongly feel the sighting of him in the mini fiddling with the laptop was the removal of the hard drive with what ever tool he had, found or purchased.

The laptop has a low potential to be a red hearing because if he planned walking away and there was noting of a critical nature on it, he would not have bothered. Either he was meeting someone to transfer the data or getting rid of the data for personal reasons. Not having another party (that we are aware of) at the lake, the transfer of data seems less likely.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

First, I would say that there was nothing "impulsive" about bringing the laptop to Lewisburg.

Snipped a bit.

To me it's looks like the trip to dispose of it was masked by "a day of shopping" as he told PF and does not point at any one of the three scenarios to the exclusion of the others. He left the case and the power supply at home with no attempt to dispose of them which seems odd. I strongly feel the sighting of him in the mini fiddling with the laptop was the removal of the hard drive with what ever tool he had, found or purchased.

Okay, but witnesses put him there for a while. He could have disposed of it, or stopped for lunch ten disposed of it, and been home in time for dinner with PEF. He also did not wait to let the dog out. He could have delayed his departure by 20-40 minutes, and still left Honey out before he left. He just to loosen a small screw to slip the drive out.

The laptop has a low potential to be a red hearing because if he planned walking away and there was noting of a critical nature on it, he would not have bothered. Either he was meeting someone to transfer the data or getting rid of the data for personal reasons. Not having another party (that we are aware of) at the lake, the transfer of data seems less likely.

He could have transferred the the data to flash drive at the house, or to the home desktop, for his use. He could have just downloaded everything to a flash drive at the house if he wanted to pass off the information.

I'm inclined to think it was for personal reasons. He didn't want other people to see what was on the hard drive. I am wondering if it is related to his disappearance, however.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Patriot News is re-running Ganim's 2012 story. It has this disclaimer:

"Editor's note: It will be 10 years on Wednesday since Centre County prosecutor Ray Gricar vanished. To mark the anniversary, PennLive writer Wallace McKelvey will publish a package early this week that takes another look at the time that has passed, its effects on those who has been part of the search and the mystery that has grown in complexity around his sudden departure."

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2015/04/looking_back_at_ray_gricar_on.html#incart_river

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Video interview with DZ, about three minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odNLklQYLN0

 

[wijg]

Contractors are still duping the military. In fact they have been doing it since the Revolutionary War (and of the reasons we have ITAR). The opportunity for "get rich quick" is just too tempting for some contractors.

To me: The computer and drive are not red herrings. The fact that Lewisburg (where the mini was found) is remote I feel is significant. The phone call to Patty on the drive was for a reason.

This is extremely important, in my opinion. The time he called her, where he was when he called her, and then his specifically telling her the route he was taking were all for a reason in my opinion.

Also... I saw photos of the recovered laptop one time, and it appeared that the CD/DVD drive was removed as well. If it was Ray who indeed removed it or attempted to remove it to ensure maximum amount of water damage, we have to ask ourselves why. Why go to lengths to ensure the CD/DVD drive is also destroyed? Well, as I understand it, CD/DVD writers have a certain amount of RAM which is used for buffer protection. If you write something to a CD or DVD, I'm betting a tech whiz with the correct tools could look into that drive's RAM and see the last bits of what you just wrote to a CD or DVD. Perhaps Ray burned a CD or DVD of important and/or incriminating files before ditching the laptop, and he needed to ensure that the RAM on the CD/DVD drive was wiped out as well.

A witness mentioned that Ray was seen in his car messing around with the laptop. Why would he be messing around with it? That laptop model's hard-drive conveniently slides out. No screwdrivers or anything necessary. Why not just walk to the river, pop the hard-drive out, and toss it in the water? What was he doing "fidgeting around" with it in the car? Burning a CD/DVD perhaps? Then maybe attempting to separate the CD/DVD drive as well (which does not conveniently slide out like the hard-drive)?

 

[wijg]

First, I would say that there was nothing "impulsive" about bringing the laptop to Lewisburg.


He could have transferred the the data to flash drive at the house, or to the home desktop, for his use. He could have just downloaded everything to a flash drive at the house if he wanted to pass off the information.

In 2005, flash drives were not very common and most only had a storage capacity of about 256 or 512 MB. I remember buying my first flash drive around that time. Your local stores only carried between 128 MB and 512 MB. Anything other than that, you had to order online (I believe 1 GB was the max I found back then online, and it was over $100). I could only store word documents and some photos on it. Music or video took up too much space. When I backed up my hard-drive back in those days, it was with a DVD, which allowed much more storage (4.7 GB for a standard DVD-R, over 18 times more storage than my first 256 MB flash drive had).

Also, I really didn't even know what a flash drive was until earl '05, and I'm 28 now and have grown up in the computer age. What are the chances Ray knew what a flash drive was? I'm betting if he backed anything up, it was on CD or DVD.

 

[wijg]

And one more thing... when I did a little work for the FBI back in 2011 and 2012, I had to give them a bunch of photos and various files pertaining to the investigation with which I was assisting them. It never occurred to me until now, but they asked for the files to be written to a CD or DVD... NOT a flash drive. I never thought about that until just now. I don't know why, but they specifically said they wanted it on a CD or DVD. The best reason I can come up with is that on a DVD-R or CD-R, the image is always there and can't be written over. Even if a CD/DVD is broken, a forensic tech whiz would be able to recover or piece together certain amounts of data. With a flash drive, if you delete something, it's gone.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped, and welcome to this thread.

A witness mentioned that Ray was seen in his car messing around with the laptop. Why would he be messing around with it? That laptop model's hard-drive conveniently slides out. No screwdrivers or anything necessary. Why not just walk to the river, pop the hard-drive out, and toss it in the water? What was he doing "fidgeting around" with it in the car? Burning a CD/DVD perhaps? Then maybe attempting to separate the CD/DVD drive as well (which does not conveniently slide out like the hard-drive)?

The term I've used to describe it is "fiddling."

The drive was held in by one screw, from what his nephew has said. It wasn't a slide out, but he would only have t remove one screw.

I will grant you that he could have been recording something to a CD as well, but he could have done that at the house.

He had asked people about how to get rid of the data on the drive about a year prior to going missing, and done the searches, so I wouldn't preclude it being unrelated. We know he had erasure softwear as well, so it is a possibility he was erasing it.

Good point on the flash drive.

 

[DeDee]

If it were planned well in advance, how many of us could make it to Lewisburg for a Saturday or Sunday? I have been planning to go, J.J. has been there and I suspect he would go again (I would drive).

Perhaps what is not obvious to us sitting at our computers, may be obvious in person.

Oddly enough, one of my ancestors founded Lewisburg, then went missing on a trip to Philadelphia.

That is interesting regarding your ancestral background, Trackergd.

I do so hope a trip is planned for members who can visit the area. I simply live too far away. However, I have been on an extended vacation that followed the Susquehanna River. The trip was before Penn State scandal and Ray Gricar disappearance. Hence, I am somewhat familiar with the area but time has dulled some memories.

The trail the river takes is beautiful. It does not have steamboat travel because it is not a deep but, it is a rather broad river. I conducted a search for images of the I-45 bridge into Lewisburg only to come up empty. If someone has a pic or link to the bridge where the computer was found, I'd appreciate seeing it.


JMHO and all that jazz

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I've posted this before, but here are some site photos: https://picasaweb.google.com/LookingforRay

 

[Trackergd]

J.J. Can you refresh us on the details of the alleged aborted attempt to dispose of the computer and drive at a local lake? I seem to remember that it was someone he knew that ran into him, but did they see him with the laptop? How long was this before Lewisburg? Thanks!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Interview with DZ athe bottom: http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2015/04/ten_years_later_ray_gricars_di.html

 

[J. J. in Phila]

J.J. Can you refresh us on the details of the alleged aborted attempt to dispose of the computer and drive at a local lake? I seem to remember that it was someone he knew that ran into him, but did they see him with the laptop? How long was this before Lewisburg? Thanks!

On 4/14/05, RFG attended a Prison Board Meeting which ended at about 9:00 AM. It was routine, but participants reported that he seem unusual, mumbling answers, looking out the window. He then took part of the day off, returning in the afternoon.

Around 10:30-11:00 AM, he was seen in at a boat landing (probable Aich (sp.)) on Lake Raystown. The witness, identified as a "doctor," knew him and saw him with the Mini. I don't know if he had the laptop with him or if that was the purpose of the trip.