PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #15

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Several possibilities:

1. He realized his daughter had her own life on the other side of the continent.

2. They may not have that close. RFG wasn't her custodial parent in her teen years, and had not been part of her household for more than a decade. As noted, for several years prior to his disappearance, they were a continent apart. They would call each other, but they were just brief "check-in" calls.

3. He may have been in contact with her. It could have been via an intermediary.

4. He felt that this was a better way to provide for his daughter.

Whether or not the first and last points were RFG's intent, that has been the result. His daughter continued on with her life, and was financially better off than if RFG had filled out his term and retired. On the last point, that could easily be a motive for suicide as well.

Thank you for such a kind and rational post, J,J,
I remember when there was such contention all over the internet regarding " What happened to Ray?"\
I hope those people have either tired of the fight or have reached the same willingness to realize that we absolutely have no proof of his demise in any way.
It is so much easier to discuss the possibility of everything you posted above now than it used to be.
So many people had really rather consider the man murdered and " thrown in a well" than alive and happy.
I came to see this attitude of " He must be dead because I can't see him" to be a total control issue.

Some people NEED to have a finite ending. They require loose ends to be tied up, for life to be neat or death to be the final solution because they are so absolutely uncomfortable with a life that has no known trail to follow for 12 years now.
It's HIS life, not mine, not anyone else's, and it is his to do with what he wants to, God willing.

I totally accept all your reasons for him having left, and you know my own, posted above.. I think they go hand in hand, of course. Many people with an unmarried child would NOT leave that child with no idea of where the parent had gone, custodial or not. A lot of it depends on how the parent was parented as a child, whether the parent was fairly permissive and flexible or inflexible and controlling.
I think Ray was a very flexible father who wanted his daughter to live the life she chose for herself at a young age regarding relocation on the W. coast, etc. I think he trusted her, or there likely would have been a huge rift in their relationship with her leaving.


We've had 12 years to really think about all the reasons people do things, and as at least a couple of us enter the age he was when he disappeared soon, it all looks different to me with the passage of time and with the addition of 12 years to my age... The need to create joy, harmony, to have a home that is a place of rest and is truly a place that is my own, those personal needs have changed from my life goals 12 years ago when my career, my friends, and my hobbies occupied my present time and things in the future didn't matter much at all.

I guess the senses of permanence and contentment are greater for me now, and more important to maintain. If I felt I couldn't find those things where I am, I would definitely make it a priority to create my own "place of peace and joy" somewhere else. Also, I don't think I would want to be alone and would want to find a partner who would truly be " the love of my life"- an exciting and dynamic enduring relationship.

This is, incidentally, totally in line with Erikson's mid- life goals minus the mentoring of adult children or grandchildren and the care of an elderly parent. I do not have those issues in my life, nor will I ever have. I do consider 59 to still be middle aged in today's society in the absence of any current chronic or acute illness or condition ( especially chronic illnesses which are not managed properly, something which is so common in the US).

I agree with your sentiments in your post,J.J., except I don't think it's likely he committed suicide.
We've come a long way, my friend, from those many years ago, haven't we? :highfive:
 
Yes, we have. :)

The presumed "closeness" causes a problem for me.

Numerous people that came into contact with RFG in the weeks before he disappeared noticed that he was acting differently, except SPS and LG.

SPS had not seen RFG in several weeks and was at the very least, in pain. At worst, he was impaired from his medication.

LG talked to him on 4/14 and said he sounded fine. That is what I mean by "closeness." Either:

A. a whole bunch of people in Centre County are lying about RFG's emotional state.

B. LG is lying RFG's emotional state.

C. LG didn't catch it in that phone call, or in the presumed multiple calls she made in the weeks before RFG disappeared.

I'm inclined to say it is C.
 
Are you meaning in your second sentence that the " presumed closeness" of those around Ray and their statements about him don't ring true or are incongruous to you? I mean, I don't THINK you are speaking about case posters, right? One sentence kind of flows into another but I think the second refers to Ray. Please clarify this, because 3 years from now I don't want people reading this to say " Hmm, what were those two at cross purposes about?"

Well, J.J., it all boils down to understanding human behavior, IMO.
( AND you left out the female ADA's online RANT at the entire Internet in general and at you in particular.. Karen Arnold..What the HECK was she so scared of to call many people out whom she didn't know, and to label strangers with some very unflattering monikers??)<<< Rhetorical question, of course.

Let's look at the people close to Ray 12 years ago, OK?
1) Bob B. is the one who is a talking head in a few short snippets in the bios about Ray's missing case. Is it he who said " Ray absolutely would LOVE to show the local cops up? He can outsmart them, and they know it?" or was it the red headed guy who was a cop? (can't recall his name now). The " Z" guy?
Anyway, a person I'd consider to be " in a position to KNOW" said, in so many words, that Ray was mischievous, that he had a playful side to him because any DA who decides to maybe deliberately vex the police with their innocent leave- taking ( if that's what happened) is smart as a fox and as wily as a coyote.

2) Patty played up her own helplessness, IMO. That's the major emotion I got from her the entire time- helplessness. I didn't see huge sorrow, maybe some anger turned inwards which is called " depression".

3) IF SPS is Steve Sloane, we know Ray was a very good friend to Steve. However, Steve may not have been able to be a " very good" friend to Ray in the last part of Ray's time as DA. Steve had been hurt in a car accident, we all know how badly he was hurt, so much so that Ray " came and read to him in the hospital" many times, we are told.
What Steve was when Ray went missing-- was injured, trying to recover, and apparently still in great pain or on high doses of narcotics in any event.
What Steve was when he was spouting off some stuff about how he really hoped Ray was off leading a good and happy life, laughing and all, was at least physically dependent on the pain meds. by that time. ( It only takes about 2 weeks to develop a physical tolerance, less in some people, regardless of the pain levels).
But, we know that he was not above board with his life at that time. He was already doing some " not great" things when some of the shows were filmed. I am thinking of the " Missing" segment most of all.

4) Lara's statements. She was a college student, then a young working professional, a wife and a mom. Her mother was there to support her at the first press conference, Ray's first wife, and really the ONLY long term relationship that we know of. The marriage to EG was 2 years or so, in terms of living together and sharing a marriage, and the live in situation with Patty had been going on for around 16-18 months at the MOST.
So, Lara was likely reacting as any daughter who didn't " hate" her father would act. I didn't see much demonstrative feelings from her or Barbara, I think it's just the way they are.

Also, I think Patty was " the favored one" with the press for all the recorded media reports on the case because her local resident status and her job at the courthouse caused her to KNOW the LEOs and the press, most likely to some extent, if not closely know them. Also, Patty may have known many members of the State Police through Ray. I can't be sure, but it seems possible.

Lara never seemed extremely emotional, and I never thought she played up to the cameras, either. She seems straight- forward and honest. Not given to tears on national news feeds, or really " all that involved' in life in PA.
She had moved on. I think she did exactly what she had to do, what she was told by her MOTHER and her attorney to do, and that's it.
Her attorney represented her interests later on, which is likely what I'd do IF I had been instructed to stay out of the picture.
Maybe she had either a worried mom, or a worried attorney, or both regarding the issue of repeated returns to the town where Ray had lived with Patty, and then disappeared..
Also, she might not have exactly loved Patty... No doubt she saw what we saw- Patty was an almost clone of her own mother, just younger. Because both women are what I would call " unusual looking" in that they were not feminine looking, really, both very slight women in size, with very short dark hair and bone structure that caused you to think they were related, and me to gasp at the huge resemblance of the two women he chose. It might have really freaked her out to know that her dad ended up with a younger lookalike to Barbara.
Or maybe she didn't care. I think Lara was so young that her statements are likely to be THE MOST HONEST.
She had NOTHING to gain by lying, and she doesn't seem to be anything but a straight- talking young woman in the short video I've seen of her.

Patty had an agenda for saying Ray was depressed, was unusually tired, etc. She wanted the medical records released- remember?
We both have agreed that because of this, some of the people in Ray's inner circle may have played up the very symptoms which would lead to a medical records review, and a statement issued about his known general health. I'm sure that Lara had to OK that, unless Ray had given Patty some sort of legal power of attorney or whatever concerning medical decisions.

I think that now, 12 years later, Lara likely has the life she wants and is happy, and has made peace with her father's absence, or knows more than she can ever tell, and has no reason to grieve. We can only speculate, but I don't see " grieving" when Ray was declared legally dead. There has never been any final services or memorial to Ray, with a date of death.
There could be a reason for this. We just don't know, but I think my opinion of " why not" has drastically changed and morphed.

I think almost all of the friends' impressions they gave to the press were likely manipulated.. If someone said" He was as steady as a rock. He never showed much emotion, and that didn't change", what kind of media statement is that? BORING.and not likely to motivate LE to worry about where he was, either.

If someone hints around and says " I don't really know what was BOTHERING Ray, but he slammed doors, seemed curt, and off his game for a few weeks" that will likely get LE to go out beating the bushes for the man, you know?

You've been a part of the media, so ask yourself, " What makes for better press and also would likely cause the police to have more concern for him being missing?" It's the sensationalized, even though it is so minimally sensational. No one said," We found small sized black lace panties which Patty said aren't hers in his belongings" or " A pretty blonde girl had lunch with him for 3 days in the past 2 weeks in this secluded restaurant in Lewisburg and I think she's related to Ivy B." or " There was a souped up red Jeep following him wherever he went".. Nothing alarming, nothing that was a blatant lie- just ENOUGH innuendo that he might have been" worried or concerned" to get LE motivated that this MIGHT be foul play.. or suicide..

Unlike you, I'm on Lara's side this time. :) She had NOTHING to lose or gain by being honest. Would Ray hide things from her that he was " acting out" in his own very professional life and office? I don't think so. I think, if anything, that very intelligent people can be under ENORMOUS personal stress and function extremely well professionally. I'd certainly think Ray falls into the " very intelligent" category easily. He'd been a DA for 20 years there. The door slamming and the curtness- I just don't buy it, plus if he was that worried or angry, WHY did he take off and go to Raystown Lake one mid- day for a few hours, and the next day, go on a road trip to Lewisburg? Those are leisurely activities, aren't they? Sure, there's likely a secondary reason behind them, but if he was agitated, I don't think he'd be out and about, but trying to solve the problem that caused the agitation..

However, if the problems were at home, with Patty, this would explain it all. 1) Agitated and curt at work because she was right there in his face, almost day in and day out. 2) He came home to more of the same. 3) Maybe he was wanting out and was impatient to get out. Frustration at how slowly time passes when we have plans made might have caused a few of the office behaviors.
They would NOT affect his relationship with Lara adversely, I don't think. If anything, I think he'd tell Lara how much he loved her more emphatically, knowing that he might not be able to make phone calls to her and maintain his separate new life he had waiting for him. That's not to say Lara hasn't had communication from him in other ways. We just don't know, but I know what you think could have transpired, and I agree with the person whom you think he would have/ might have/ did trust.).
 
Well, when I say "presumed closeness," I mean how involved in RFG's life were any of the people mentioned. I distinguish loving and "caring about" a person from being close to that person.

"Being close" to a person, to me, means being involved in that person's day to day life. PEF was close to RFG, Sloane, usually, was close to RFG. BG was "close" to RFG while they were married and the same with EG; neither was close to RFG on 4/15/05.

Somebody 500 miles away or 2500 miles away is not "close" to another person unless they are in daily or near daily extended contact with each other. They may care about each other, and love each other, but they are not "close," unless there is a lot of sustained communication.

There is a difference between LG caring about her father, loving her father, and being close to her father. I think she cared about her father and loved her father, but they were not involved in each others day to day life. That is part of being an adult.

I will submit that there was a change in RFG's demeanor in the mouth before he disappeared and that LG just did not notice it, because she wasn't there.
 
Well, when I say "presumed closeness," I mean how involved in RFG's life were any of the people mentioned. I distinguish loving and "caring about" a person from being close to that person.

"Being close" to a person, to me, means being involved in that person's day to day life. PEF was close to RFG, Sloane, usually, was close to RFG. BG was "close" to RFG while they were married and the same with EG; neither was close to RFG on 4/15/05.

Somebody 500 miles away or 2500 miles away is not "close" to another person unless they are in daily or near daily extended contact with each other. They may care about each other, and love each other, but they are not "close," unless there is a lot of sustained communication.

There is a difference between LG caring about her father, loving her father, and being close to her father. I think she cared about her father and loved her father, but they were not involved in each others day to day life. That is part of being an adult.

I will submit that there was a change in RFG's demeanor in the mouth before he disappeared and that LG just did not notice it, because she wasn't there.

I see your point.. however, we don't know if Lara was a confidante' or not. It's possible they had grown closer as she was an adult, and they were able to talk easily about their feelings, thoughts, etc.
I've not had this happen with my own parents, but with my son, definitely. I accept his truths as his truths and don't try to solve his problems in any way, nor does he tell me things looking for " a solution".
It's not hard for me because of my career experience, as it's how I communicate in general.

I think Ray might have had that kind of convos with Lara, we just don't know, but it's typical of adults her age to be open and honest with parents much more than we were able to be, generally, as Baby Boomers. :)
Not arguing with you, just sharing my own changes in communication style as the world has changed regarding acceptance and tolerance.
 
Many people have remarked that Ray acted different a few weeks prior to his disappearance. I wonder if he was anxious about retiring? I am on a retirement forum and many posters comment they are nervous or scared to retire. This is true especially for men who have their whole identity tied up in their career.

If so, this may point to suicide or walk away.
 
Many people have remarked that Ray acted different a few weeks prior to his disappearance. I wonder if he was anxious about retiring? I am on a retirement forum and many posters comment they are nervous or scared to retire. This is true especially for men who have their whole identity tied up in their career.

If so, this may point to suicide or walk away.

RFG had been planning to retire since the 2001 election. He had announced it in January of 2004.
We would have until December to be working there. He had mentioned to Bob Buehner about turning over a lot of the work to whomever won the general election, but that was 7 1/2 months away.
 
I'm getting a ton of " broken media links" when I try to go back and read or watch videos on the case.
Does anyone have a quick reference list of what's still available?
Thanks in advance. :)
 
I'm getting a ton of " broken media links" when I try to go back and read or watch videos on the case.
Does anyone have a quick reference list of what's still available?
Thanks in advance. :)


Unfortunately, no.

I would be happy to send out at least my blogs.
 
Well, April brings another "missing" member of LE: http://nbc4i.com/2017/04/29/austin-...-to-have-staged-his-own-death-fled-to-mexico/

I'm posting this for two reasons:

1. To demonstrate that, yes, even people in LE, with loved ones back home, due walk away from their lives.

2. This officer, Coleman Martin, went to great lengths to stage his suicide. He told his wife that he was depressed, left her a card and a note, left his car at a lake, sent out an inflatable raft, along with a few other things. This was something that RFG specifically did not do.

I have a problem with anyone suggesting that either RFG or some murderer "made it look like suicide."
RFG never told PEF (or anyone) that he was depressed, didn't leave a note, or even did Google searches on suicide.

For the people that claim that someone somehow surreptitiously made the computer searches (I think that has been pretty much debunked), why didn't that someone search terms like "depression," "drowning," and "suicide?"
 
Well, April brings another "missing" member of LE: http://nbc4i.com/2017/04/29/austin-...-to-have-staged-his-own-death-fled-to-mexico/

This officer, Coleman Martin, went to great lengths to stage his suicide. He told his wife that he was depressed, left her a card and a note, left his car at a lake, sent out an inflatable raft, along with a few other things.

Interesting. Martin probably had seen a few suicides and had heard stories of others, so he had a good idea of how to stage one.
 
Interesting. Martin probably had seen a few suicides and had heard stories of others, so he had a good idea of how to stage one.

It really wasn't that well staged. He contacted someone, who went to the police. He had only complained about being depressed for the two days before he disappeared. He made some cash ATM withdrawals just before he vanished.

That is one thing I would be curious about; when did RFG withdraw money that week? There was not a lot of withdrawals over the year, but was there a spike right before he disappeared.
 
Well, April brings another "missing" member of LE: http://nbc4i.com/2017/04/29/austin-...-to-have-staged-his-own-death-fled-to-mexico/

I'm posting this for two reasons:

1. To demonstrate that, yes, even people in LE, with loved ones back home, due walk away from their lives.

2. This officer, Coleman Martin, went to great lengths to stage his suicide. He told his wife that he was depressed, left her a card and a note, left his car at a lake, sent out an inflatable raft, along with a few other things. This was something that RFG specifically did not do.

I have a problem with anyone suggesting that either RFG or some murderer "made it look like suicide."
RFG never told PEF (or anyone) that he was depressed, didn't leave a note, or even did Google searches on suicide.

For the people that claim that someone somehow surreptitiously made the computer searches (I think that has been pretty much debunked), why didn't that someone search terms like "depression," "drowning," and "suicide?"

I think there's a third reason to post the Austin, TX, faked suicide disappearance article...
This sentence, describing WHY they think he faked his suicide and tried to disappear-- ( Quoting)-- "[FONT=&amp]Martin had a close relationship with a female who was not his wife, detectives learned."

[/FONT]
You know that's my leading theory regarding Ray Gricar, too, except that he was not legally married to Patty, just lived with her and worked with her, bought her house and her car, which he drove.
They were as enmeshed as most married couples of their ages without shared children, IMO, from what I know. .
I still think he left her on his own terms for someone else.

The above article backs up that men will do some pretty weird and desperate things for the women they fall in love with( and women will as well, to be fair).
This guy wrote on an inflatable raft, and put up a handmade cross! " Overkill, dude, overkill..

That is grounds for a 5150 if I've ever seen one. I hope the TX LEO is getting psych.eval. and help right now, in fact.
Ray's case doesn't have the same features, as you obviously know and pointed out...
 
One of the possibilities that I have been considering is that RFG was having an romantic rendezvous in Lewisburg. However, that would make foul play much more likely.

If all the witnesses are correct, RFG was in Lewisburg on 4/16/05. I can only come up with two reasons for that:

1. He had spent the night with someone, probably a woman. Sometime on Saturday, he died, or was murdered, while with the woman, and she hid the body.

2. He had a helper who picked him up on 4/15, possibly drove him back to Centre County, where he spent the night. He drives back to Lewisburg in the second car, and makes an appearance in Lewisburg so LE isn't asking his associates about that car one of them just bought, but is no where to be found.
 
One of the possibilities that I have been considering is that RFG was having an romantic rendezvous in Lewisburg. However, that would make foul play much more likely.

If all the witnesses are correct, RFG was in Lewisburg on 4/16/05. I can only come up with two reasons for that:

1. He had spent the night with someone, probably a woman. Sometime on Saturday, he died, or was murdered, while with the woman, and she hid the body.

2. He had a helper who picked him up on 4/15, possibly drove him back to Centre County, where he spent the night. He drives back to Lewisburg in the second car, and makes an appearance in Lewisburg so LE isn't asking his associates about that car one of them just bought, but is no where to be found.
The more time that passes, the more I lean towards #1 being the actual scenario, but the computer searches about how to destroy a laptop are tough to get around. If #1 is the true situation, were those searches just a coincidence?
 
The more time that passes, the more I lean towards #1 being the actual scenario, but the computer searches about how to destroy a laptop are tough to get around. If #1 is the true situation, were those searches just a coincidence?

I think RFG could have been planning to Lewisburg that day, and decided to use the opportunity to toss the laptop.

Under this possibility, RFG was planning to toss the laptop, but was also planning to be at work come Monday. He was planning, for some other reason, to go to Lewisburg.

What was that other reason? In the case of murder, this is what they could be:

1. He was going to do something nefarious, get a bribe, buy drugs, whatever. The problems with this theory are twofold.

First, there is no evidence that RFG would do anything like that.

Second, if the witnesses are correct about Saturday, RFG had to do something nefarious, and then hang around until the next day

2. He went to Lewisburg on 4/15/05 and met a woman; he spent the night with her. They went some place, perhaps where they spent the night. On Saturday morning, RFG looked around the SoS, and went back to be with here.

This would probably the only scenario if we could more evidence that RFG really was walking around the SoS on 4/16/05.

My problem is, I'm not sure it wasRFG there on 4/16/05.
 
That is one thing I would be curious about; when did RFG withdraw money that week? There was not a lot of withdrawals over the year, but was there a spike right before he disappeared.

Sorry...I have been really tied up with the Lauren Jackson case. Exciting things are afoot....after 29 years of digging.


A sudden spike in withdraws (depending on the amounts) points more at walking away or a romantic rendezvous/relationship more than suicide.

I still go back to the laptop and drive. If he had email communications with a romantic interest using the county laptop (kept hidden in the closet) rather than on the home or work computers, it would explain searching how to destroy the drive and dumping it in the river. It may also explain his demeanor in the days before he went missing. Unable to dispose of the evidence in advance of leaving may have been bothering him along with the emotional stress of having to walk away from a long term partner with no closure for either of them...a twinge of guilt?

I really wish I could pin point the spots where the laptop and drive were found. I now have the new waterproof deep seeking forensics coil for the metal detector. It might be interesting to scan for additional evidence in those spots.
 
Sorry...I have been really tied up with the Lauren Jackson case. Exciting things are afoot....after 29 years of digging.


A sudden spike in withdraws (depending on the amounts) points more at walking away or a romantic rendezvous/relationship more than suicide.

Exactly, but LE has never released that. And I don't have anything on it.

I still go back to the laptop and drive. If he had email communications with a romantic interest using the county laptop (kept hidden in the closet) rather than on the home or work computers, it would explain searching how to destroy the drive and dumping it in the river. It may also explain his demeanor in the days before he went missing. Unable to dispose of the evidence in advance of leaving may have been bothering him along with the emotional stress of having to walk away from a long term partner with no closure for either of them...a twinge of guilt?

No pun intended but the laptop is almost a wash. I can understand RFG tossing it, if he wanted to commit suicide. Ditto with walkaway.

I can understand RFG, or a perpetrator, tossing it in some murder scenarios.

I can understand if it was not related, just a lucky happenstance for a killer. That, however, would not explain his demeanor.


I really wish I could pin point the spots where the laptop and drive were found. I now have the new waterproof deep seeking forensics coil for the metal detector. It might be interesting to scan for additional evidence in those spots.

I can show you within about a 20-40 foot radius; how "pinpoint" do you want it?
 
Exactly, but LE has never released that. And I don't have anything on it.

And that begs a question all it's own. Since it is not illegal to go missing and RFG has been declared dead, why has it not been released? Perhaps a FOIA request would be appropriate? If it is denied, that would point strongly to PSP knowing the whole story, but not telling.


No pun intended but the laptop is almost a wash. I can understand RFG tossing it, if he wanted to commit suicide. Ditto with walkaway.

I can understand RFG, or a perpetrator, tossing it in some murder scenarios.

I can understand if it was not related, just a lucky happenstance for a killer. That, however, would not explain his demeanor.

Tossing the laptop would prevent anyone else from making the details of a hidden, possibly err..."interesting" relationship public and saving PF from less than kind public comment.

Demeanor would be not being able to dispose of the laptop on the first attempt and forcing it to be disposed of on the day of exit.

Before anyone gets in a huff...we are working on theories, not saying this is what happened.


I can show you within about a 20-40 foot radius; how "pinpoint" do you want it?

That is close enough for me.
 
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