PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #16

[J. J. in Phila]

that's interesting that the uncle makes a point of that. "administrative" not " oh yes sadly we feel Ray is no longer with us and it's time to close the book".

hmm.

I don't find that too unusual. He was saying that this does not resolve the disappearance. He was also saying that it was necessary to settle the estate.

I had, well before they filed to have RFG declared dead, about the legal status. It was called, "Gricar is Alive, Legally." When they filed, I wrote one titled "Gricar May Not be Alive, Legally." When RFG was declared dead, I wrote one that was titled "Gricar is Not Alive, Legally." It basically dealt with the administrative aspect.

 

[minazoe]

jj...how you have not managed to actually find Ray is beyond me.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

jj...how you have not managed to actually find Ray is beyond me.

It is worse than that. I don't even know what happened to him.

 

[Quiet Time]

Based on some of his conversations with RFG. RFG was interested in traveling; the Mel Wiley interest also played a part in that. RFG's finances also raised this as a possibility.

Ok, but why disappear without a word?
He could of just said he was taking some personal time off, and gone and done his own thing.

Send a few postcards, and keep travelling...jmo

 

[minazoe]

yeah he could have dumped PF and hit the road. so what? they weren't married..

I still have trouble with PF..she was at work the day Ray went missing and everyone is sure they saw Ray driving his car and positive it was Ray at the lake on the correct dates etc.. I have probs with a lot of eye witness stuff especially when it's mundane stuff like seeing someone in their car in an area where everyone knows everyone and see each other all the time. Could someone have seen a woman or another person driving the car and mistaken them for Ray? could they just have assumed it was Ray because no one else drove his mini?

if he was with a mystery woman in Lewis b why is it they cannot locate this woman? how hard did they try?

what is her description? people have trouble with dates.. I don't trust they didn't see him with a woman , say the week before.

what if the laptop days are wrong..what if the lap top has to do with the woman? what if the laptop has nothing to do with Ray going missing?

I still think Ray was murdered. mOO

 

[Quiet Time]

Ok, but why disappear without a word?
He could of just said he was taking some personal time off, and gone and done his own thing.

Send a few postcards, and keep travelling...jmo

Sorry, this conversation/question sounds like something I've written on here before.lol..

 

[Quiet Time]

***if he was with a mystery woman in Lewis b why is it they cannot locate this woman? how hard did they try?***

Do they not have cameras in the store? Or around the building that they supposedly saw him at?
I think he was murdered too.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Ok, but why disappear without a word?
He could of just said he was taking some personal time off, and gone and done his own thing.

Send a few postcards, and keep travelling...jmo

There is a very good financial reason to do it, as has been pointed out. His heirs get more money and RFG could have a fairly large sum.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

***if he was with a mystery woman in Lewis b why is it they cannot locate this woman? how hard did they try?***

Do they not have cameras in the store? Or around the building that they supposedly saw him at?
I think he was murdered too.

No cameras at the time. There are several reasons a Mystery Woman didn't come forward:

1. She doesn't know anyone was looking for her. It wasn't well publicized until May of 2006.

2. She was helping RFG walk away.

3. She murdered him.

4. She had an SO, and didn't want to admit that she was with RFG that weekend. You could even strike out "SO" and insert "some involvement with a case."

They are all possible reasons, and with merit for each.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped for brevity only.

I still have trouble with PF..she was at work the day Ray went missing and everyone is sure they saw Ray driving his car and positive it was Ray at the lake on the correct dates etc.. I have probs with a lot of eye witness stuff especially when it's mundane stuff like seeing someone in their car in an area where everyone knows everyone and see each other all the time. Could someone have seen a woman or another person driving the car and mistaken them for Ray? could they just have assumed it was Ray because no one else drove his mini?

One of the witnesses, the court house worker, had a time stamped receipt that she had gotten a few minutes before she saw RFG. She recognized RFG, and she knew he was from work.

There are a number of witnesses to RFG being in Lewisburg. They are independent of each other, in some cases. Their timing fits. There is physical evidence with him being in Lewisburg, i.e. his scent.

I think someone could make the argument that RFG wasn't in Lewisburg on Saturday 4/16/05. I know of only three witnesses, that are not independent of each other, and his scent could be from the day before; I have heard of more witnesses on that day, but I don't know the specifics.

 

[minazoe]

it's just the sighting of him with a woman, it could have been a different day, other days..why was he so recognized there? was he there frequently? are there any boutique hotels or hotel no-tells in the area?

what was Ray interested in in these antiques shops? baseball stuff? he doesn't strike me as a big spender, maybe people know him as a the county DA, still I find it strange and did these shop owners etc have any convo's with Ray? seeing Ray moving his car etc...maybe in a small town, maybe, but none of it holds up in a way that convinces me. Why would you remember Ray moving his mini to the parking lot..it just sounds dicey. maybe few people were out and time passes slowly there.

I know the dog had his scent in that parking lot but what if it was just from his car?
what if Ray never moved his car to the lot and someone with a cigarette moved the car.

The cigarette ash didn't just get up and throw itself into Ray's car and surely the forensics people know better, the police tow drivers know not to smoke or contaminate the car.

I know we keep scrubbing over the same spots but I just don't think Ray was meandering around antique shops with some woman and then wandered off and
threw himself off a bridge. It sounds ridiculous and so unlikely , even if it was someone he wished to see one last time. It's absurd because we would find this woman, she would come forward because she would be concerned about Ray's
disappearance.

You say there could be a husband? well she could make an anonymous tip, she could come forward in this famous case that is local and so front and center.

if there is an affair of this kind than there can be several motives for murdering Ray.

none of these are nice. mOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped to answer questions.

it's just the sighting of him with a woman, it could have been a different day, other days..why was he so recognized there? was he there frequently? are there any boutique hotels or hotel no-tells in the area?

The police showed the witnesses a photo and several people saw him in the Mini.

There several motels, but none of them remember RFG.

what was Ray interested in in these antiques shops? baseball stuff? he doesn't strike me as a big spender, maybe people know him as a the county DA, still I find it strange and did these shop owners etc have any convo's with Ray?

Yes, he liked old cameras and old toys. I walked through the shop with someone, and I didn't talk to any owner.

I know the dog had his scent in that parking lot but what if it was just from his car?
what if Ray never moved his car to the lot and someone with a cigarette moved the car.

Ask Trackergd about the dog. The ash was on the passenger side. It would have hard to have come from someone driving, at least without ash on the passenger side.

I know we keep scrubbing over the same spots but I just don't think Ray was meandering around antique shops with some woman and then wandered off and
threw himself off a bridge. It sounds ridiculous and so unlikely , even if it was someone he wished to see one last time.

There other ways of committing suicide; this is one of the reasons for the focus on the other side of the river.

You say there could be a husband? well she could make an anonymous tip, she could come forward in this famous case that is local and so front and center.

She may not want her husband to find out and even a tip would lead back to her.

if there is an affair of this kind than there can be several motives for murdering Ray.

none of these are nice. mOO

That is the most likely murder scenario.

 

[minazoe]

ok so the murder has to take place somewhere.

lets say the affair is discovered .. Ray dumps the laptop because he has been communicating with his lover on this computer and doesn't want it discovered by PF. as he is threatened with exposure, and this would destroy his life with PF.

He goes to Lewisb, to discuss with the paramour, they go for a walk around the stores.

the injured third party has followed them here.

the third party approaches him as soon as he is alone either in the parking lot or somewhere. else. He then takes him at gunpoint. Maybe the car is moved by the killer to the parking lot or they met there. At some point the killer is in Rays car, either to search the car or to sit and discuss with RAY his predicament.


He murders Ray deep in the woods, or caps him out of earshot and hides the body.

no one ever sees Ray again and he has effectively hidden his affair by destroying the proof.

Perhaps this affair is the wife or girlfriend of a close friend, or the wife or girlfriend of someone criminal.

mOO

 

[Ozoner]

ok so the murder has to take place somewhere.

lets say the affair is discovered .. Ray dumps the laptop because he has been communicating with his lover on this computer and doesn't want it discovered by PF. as he is threatened with exposure, and this would destroy his life with PF.

He goes to Lewisb, to discuss with the paramour, they go for a walk around the stores.

the injured third party has followed them here.

the third party approaches him as soon as he is alone either in the parking lot or somewhere. else. He then takes him at gunpoint. Maybe the car is moved by the killer to the parking lot or they met there. At some point the killer is in Rays car, either to search the car or to sit and discuss with RAY his predicament.


He murders Ray deep in the woods, or caps him out of earshot and hides the body.

no one ever sees Ray again and he has effectively hidden his affair by destroying the proof.

Perhaps this affair is the wife or girlfriend of a close friend, or the wife or girlfriend of someone criminal.

mOO

It's entirely possible, but I wouldn't put much stock in the Saturday-morning sightings of Ray with a mystery woman. There's a good chance people merely saw someone who resembled Ray.

 

[minazoe]

I agree Ozoner, I agree this is a very thin lead, unless the person who saw them knows one of them.

also the car , parking sightings etc, don't really tell us much and can't be verified.

mOO

 

[minazoe]

was there a description of the woman? sorry ( cant remember..a blonde woman?)

 

[J. J. in Phila]

First, I think Minazoe's scenarios are quite possible

I will toss out the possibility that the laptop might tossed for some totally unrelated reason.

It's entirely possible, but I wouldn't put much stock in the Saturday-morning sightings of Ray with a mystery woman. There's a good chance people merely saw someone who resembled Ray.

The Mystery Woman was seen with RFG on 4/15/05. I don't know of any sightings of her on 4/16.

She was described, IIRC, about 5'9", dark hair, late 30's to 40's years old, and "good looking."

 

[minazoe]

and this person didn't match the description of PF?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

and this person didn't match the description of PF?

No, PEF is a little older and a little shorter. We also know that PEF was in Bellefonte as of 4:30 PM and again at about 5:30 PM. It is a 2+ hour drive from Bellefonte to Lewisburg and back again, assuming that there is no traffic and someone is driving at the speed limit. Even someone driving an average speed of 90 MPH could not do that.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

When I started, I looked at PEF. I initially looked at the possibility that RFG's call was to suggest to drive down to Lewisburg for dinner or for a cozy weekend. During this, there was a lover's quarrel, and FRG died. The problem is that that there just not enough time for PEF to get to Lewisburg and back to Bellefonte so she could leave the Courthouse at 4:30 PM and arrive at the gym even as late as 6:00 PM (and I think she arrived earlier).