PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #16

[SeekingJana]

What a beautiful post.

I could not walk by without making this comment.

This is an Internet Post of the Day IMHO.

Deep down, I believe a majority of us feel this way.

Peace to all. Live long, and prosper

Thank you, Jim. I really appreciate your understanding and kindness.
I could not be here if I didn't know that God watches over all who are missing, and holds close those who are with Him now, whether we know it yet or not. I think you are right, my fellow posters feel the same way. Sometimes, the sadness inherent in the majority of the cases here compels me to offer a prayer for all the people we discuss and their families and loved ones. It restores me soul and refreshes my spirit to continue onward.

Please stay and post with us if you'd like. It's a quiet discussion about a quiet and very good man. Page one of this thread has a case summary.. Ask questions, offer theories, it's all fine within the site's TOS,

 

[Trackergd]

When established homes are forced to hook up to a new township sewer system, the existing septic system is abandoned as is. Some homeowners have used them for everything from pet waste to grass clippings. People have fallen into them by accident and perished. Most have a concrete cover about 24" in diameter that is usually under the grass or hidden by plants. Older systems are two tank. One is a poured concrete settlement tank and the second is a round seepage tank made of loosely stacked concrete block or brick. The holes in the top have to be large enough to pump out the tank and allow for interior inspection. Another possibility is the sanitary sewer system. A few years back a young lady went missing in the Indian King development along boot road, near Rt 100 South of Exton PA. I was there for the hasty search. No evidence at all to be found. A year or so later, a sewage worker found some of her bones in a manhole a distance from the home she went missing at. Turns out there was also a manhole right near her home. If I remember correctly, a maintenance worker was found guilty of killing her and dumping the body down the sewer system manhole. Not the nicest places to dispose of a body and is really insult upon injury when you consider the poor victim was murdered then dumped in with the #2.

 

[SeekingJana]

I was talking with a friend about Mini Cooper cars recently. We both decided that the car has likely had its height of popularity.. At least, 5-10 years ago, I saw a handful or more per day. Usually, the golfers at the Pro Shop or at some kind of putting grange ( I don't know the term) that's on the running trail I use.

The distribution was pretty well split between the Mini coupe and the Clubman coupe.
Now, neither of us sees any Minis in a community which is:
1) Very closed off to outside traffic but full of residential traffic. 2) Has many members who own 3-4 cars for different types of driving. The Mini was their " If a ball hits it at the golf courses, at least it's not the Beemer, or other larger car"..
3) Full of men, most of them over 55-60. They drive for miles in their golf carts on our private roads ( the HOA owns all our own roadways) out here, LOL, so would be comfy in a Mini Cooper.

It's kind of sad to not see the cars any longer, but in a way, it's the lessening of a heartache as well.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I have to be honest; I've never seen any that big, even in rural areas.

That was something that was something I never thought of, sewers. Lewisburg does have them. I think the covers are fairly hard to remove.

Basically, I was looking for something that would be pre-dug.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped, for brevity only.

It's kind of sad to not see the cars any longer, but in a way, it's the lessening of a heartache as well.

I do see about the same I saw in 2005-6. I live near a hospital and I see them from employees. They tend to be a bit upscale.

 

[SeekingJana]

Snipped, for brevity only.


I do see about the same I saw in 2005-6. I live near a hospital and I see them from employees. They tend to be a bit upscale.

Here, I see a lot of Teslas, which is so ironic because at least half, probably closer to 2/3 of the senior adults who lived here before we moved to TX own all kinds of oil reserve leases and gas leases throughout OK and TX. Some of them have their maps on the wall, they're so proud of it all. LOL.

Younger people tend to drive things like Prius ( again, ironic considering the fracking that was done in the Barnett Shale a few years ago that made THEM wealthy).

Middle aged baby boomers still love Beemers, Audis, huge BMW SUVs, and, surprisingly, some gorgeous Mazda Miatas. I was a big fan of the convertible classic in the 90's but I can't drive a stick shift well at all.

As I said, I think the Mini Coopers were essentially " knock around" cars because so many cars get dinged by errant golf balls.. I saw a ton of them in the golfers' parking lots for a few years.

I hope y'all tire of the septic tank talk soon. It's making me sick as little Beau over there <<.
I think they are the grossest, most barbaric things in the world, almost.
Also, I recently read a book by a best selling author whose series I have followed for over 30 years ( I know, I feel so old) , and she had bodies thrown into old septic tanks too. My head is actually spinning just typing this. ( Where's the green emoticon?)

Seriously, we don't think RFG ended up in a mine, well or septic tank, right? I mean, I can only speak for myself and I certainly don't think it's a theory with any evidence to support the validity. Generally speaking, we all know that if there's a large enough hole in the ground, we can either fall into it, or be disposed of in that gruesome way...
Let's shift focus to something a bit more pleasant and plausible, as far as what we know..

What would you guys like to talk about other than septic tanks?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped.

Seriously, we don't think RFG ended up in a mine, well or septic tank, right? I mean, I can only speak for myself and I certainly don't think it's a theory with any evidence to support the validity. Generally speaking, we all know that if there's a large enough hole in the ground, we can either fall into it, or be disposed of in that gruesome way...
Let's shift focus to something a bit more pleasant and plausible, as far as what we know..

It is a possibility. If RFG was killed, his body would have to be put someplace.

I certainly would not discount the possibility, even though it might not be the most likely possibility.

 

[Cherry]

The fact remains that he had something very damaging on his laptop drive and destroyed it.

 

[SeekingJana]

The fact remains that he had something very damaging on his laptop drive and destroyed it.

Yes, by all accounts, he had something he didn't want to share. We can formulate guesses, but I don't see how we'll ever really know unless technology progresses to the point that they can recover the data from the HD. I really don't think that sort of recovery work is being developed because computers are becoming almost ' disposable" and if the HD is unreadable, a person goes and buys a $150 laptop on Amazon, or at Walmart or wherever. You know what I mean.

The work done to recover data from airplane black boxes MIGHT be our best hope for the tape to be restored or at least readable.. That technology is still progressing, as I understand it. I don't know if flight recorders use anything like a hard drive, though.

J..J., do you know about the black boxes and flight recorders on planes? Are they using a microsystem HD like a computer does?

 

[SeekingJana]

Respectfully snipped.



It is a possibility. If RFG was killed, his body would have to be put someplace.

I certainly would not discount the possibility, even though it might not be the most likely possibility.

I agree that the possibilities are almost limitless. If we could just go to another possibility, though?

 

[minazoe]

how far could Ray have walked in a wooded direction before he was in a populated area?

miles?

I still believe he encountered his killer in the parking lot and was taken away at gunpoint in a vehicle and no one saw it. I think his live-in knew but had to play it completely dumb, because she was also in danger if it got out that she knew something.

why chuck the laptop? why?

Ray was in trouble and he knew it ... either revenge, blackmail, knowledge of a crime, or participation in a crime. It could have been a husband. There could have been communications on that laptop Ray needed to hide.

what murders or missing persons occurred in that area at that time? wonder if we could connect Ray's timeline?

could have been a mob hit...

so he ditched the laptop to prevent further trouble and protect the innocent from any knowledge of the info on it. MOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped

how far could Ray have walked in a wooded direction before he was in a populated area?

miles?

It depend. RFG could cross the bridge, going 0.4 miles and end up near a wooded area. If he continued in the same direction for another 0.7 miles, he'd be back in a populated area.

I still believe he encountered his killer in the parking lot and was taken away at gunpoint in a vehicle and no one saw it. I think his live-in knew but had to play it completely dumb, because she was also in danger if it got out that she knew something.

It would be difficult, if not impossible, to have taken RFG from where the Mini was found. It is near the street, and about 20-25 feet from front doors of two houses. It is probably one of the worst spots to try to force someone into a car

why chuck the laptop? why?

We know that he wanted to get rid of the stuff on the laptop for about a year prior to disappearing. It is possible that it is not related to his disappearance.

what murders or missing persons occurred in that area at that time? wonder if we could connect Ray's timeline?

None is Centre County.

 

[SeekingJana]

how far could Ray have walked in a wooded direction before he was in a populated area?

miles?

I still believe he encountered his killer in the parking lot and was taken away at gunpoint in a vehicle and no one saw it. I think his live-in knew but had to play it completely dumb, because she was also in danger if it got out that she knew something.

why chuck the laptop? why?

Ray was in trouble and he knew it ... either revenge, blackmail, knowledge of a crime, or participation in a crime. It could have been a husband. There could have been communications on that laptop Ray needed to hide.

what murders or missing persons occurred in that area at that time? wonder if we could connect Ray's timeline?

could have been a mob hit...

so he ditched the laptop to prevent further trouble and protect the innocent from any knowledge of the info on it. MOO

The laptop was likely only important to Ray, and likely only because he didn't want his communication known after he'd left Bellefonte, IMO.

IF Patty knew he'd been the victim of foul play, wasn't she already in grave danger? " Playing dumb" doesn't keep a person who is collateral damage alive. Never has. Mob leaves no witnesses.

Speaking of witnesses, he was seen in several public places in Lewisburg. Actually, ONLY public places because he didn't live there. He had " slept in" that AM. Why not ambush him in his bed in his own house? That's how the mafia works. Surprise brutal hit. Not a walk around an antique store for hours in a town 50 miles away, IMO.

Why not kidnap/ kill him in Bellefonte? As far as I know, Lewisburg wasn't a hotbed of criminal activity. Why not use his known daily routine to one's advantage? Not sure how a small day trip makes it a murder scene unless he'd been going into an unsafe place, which wasn't Lewisburg.

What's the motive? Where's the body? ( Not in a well or septic tank, likely..)

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Skeletal remains were found this week in Bedford County: Identifying human remains may take months, Bedford officials say

Local hunter finds human skull in the woods

They were of a male, over 50, and at least 5'11'. It is believed to have been there for 3-10 years. There is the normal amount of RFG speculation. A shoe, no type given, was found; RFG was wearing tennis shoes.

The location, however, is about 125 from Lewisburg. It is close to the PA Turnpike, I-99, and very close to US Route 30.

 

[SeekingJana]

Skeletal remains were found this week in Bedford County: Identifying human remains may take months, Bedford officials say

Local hunter finds human skull in the woods

They were of a male, over 50, and at least 5'11'. It is believed to have been there for 3-10 years. There is the normal amount of RFG speculation. A shoe, no type given, was found; RFG was wearing tennis shoes.

The location, however, is about 125 from Lewisburg. It is close to the PA Turnpike, I-99, and very close to US Route 30.

OK, not going to panic.
His DNA has been in CODIS for a long time, right?

Also, he's been missing 13 years... 3 years over the " believed to be" time frame. I'm going to hold on to remains being newer.
Also, I don't think any part of an athletic shoe would be remaining near the skull.. JMO, but likely some scavenger in the animal kingdom would have hauled off each shoe because of the scent, chewability, etc. I'd think.
I'm grasping at straws.

The " over 50" age thing is really bothering me. Also, fits with a classic b0dy dumping near a major roadway, of course, which makes a lot more sense to me than to go to a ton of trouble to conceal a body through burial or dropping in any cavernous container.

Prayers for the UID and a special prayer that RFG is alive and enjoying senior life somewhere in the world.

 

[minazoe]

He could have been followed..taking him from the parking lot could have been as easy as showing him a gun. He could of gone there to meet someone.

Really doesn't seem likely that he committed suicide and left his family clueless..someone who would totally know all the hell that would ensue from a no-note disappearance like this.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped for space only:

OK, not going to panic.
His DNA has been in CODIS for a long time, right?

Also, he's been missing 13 years... 3 years over the " believed to be" time frame. I'm going to hold on to remains being newer.
Also, I don't think any part of an athletic shoe would be remaining near the skull..

Most of the found bodies are quickly ruled out, for a number of reasons. They are too recent, too old, the size is wrong, or the sex is wrong. This one clears those hurdles.

There are some problems. It is not close to Lewisburg and is basically in a different direction, south of Bellefonte, not east. It is in a location that would be difficult to dump a body. It would have been difficult for RFG to have gotten to the location and killed himself or died some other way.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

He could have been followed..taking him from the parking lot could have been as easy as showing him a gun. He could of gone there to meet someone.

Really doesn't seem likely that he committed suicide and left his family clueless..someone who would totally know all the hell that would ensue from a no-note disappearance like this.

The problem with "showing a gun" is that it becomes more dangerous to go with the person who has the gun.

The Atlanta courthouse killings occurred about 5 weeks before and was all over the news: Atlanta Courthouse Shootings Fast Facts - CNN

Two people escaped the killer when he attempted to force each into a car. There is virtually no way that RFG could not have known about this shooting.

If he bolts and/or makes a lot of noise, he would know that he'd would have a much better chance of survival. He was close enough to homes, and the street, that yelling would attract a lot of attention.

 

[minazoe]

I think it's a little different say if the gun is pointing inches from your head . Also could have been quickly knocked out and thrown in a trunk or the back of a van.

I also like the idea of a possible affair with this mystery woman..like maybe something was going on where they had been discovered..maybe the husband of this woman was dangerous, or she had a dangerous ex..so Ray wanted to scrap the laptop. Perhaps this guy was stalking Ray..perhaps he tried to meet up with her in Lewisberg and was followed.

Could there be a woman out there who knows what happened to Ray?

so many roads, so many.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped.

I think it's a little different say if the gun is pointing inches from your head . Also could have been quickly knocked out and thrown in a trunk or the back of a van.

The Atlanta incident was a killer putting a gun to someone's head. It would be the same type of thing of thing as would have happened in the parking lot. An unconscious body being dragged across the parking lot would likely attract attention.

Perhaps this guy was stalking Ray..perhaps he tried to meet up with her in Lewisberg and was followed.

A stalker, or killer, would have to know that RFG was going to leave the house, and know where her was going. There are multiple ways that RFG could get to Lewisburg. There are multiple paths that he could have taken just to leave his block. It is almost impossible that RFG would not have spotted a car tailing him from his residence.

As to a woman, it is possible.