PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #16

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The Atlanta incident was a killer putting a gun to someone's head. It would be the same type of thing of thing as would have happened in the parking lot. An unconscious body being dragged across the parking lot would likely attract attention.



A stalker, or killer, would have to know that RFG was going to leave the house, and know where her was going. There are multiple ways that RFG could get to Lewisburg. There are multiple paths that he could have taken just to leave his block. It is almost impossible that RFG would not have spotted a car tailing him from his residence.

As to a woman, it is possible.

Just to say, I agree with this post.

As a slight aside, I've HAD a gun pointed at my head before. I did just what the John Walsh TV show told us to do years ago. DO NOT GET IN SOMEONE'S CAR. You never come out of that alive.

I said" Shoot me right here in broad daylight then" as I ran, zigzagging and kicking off my high heels.. He was bluffing, as the only way he REALLY " wanted" me was alive.

Police could do nothing, and he did get his second chance after using a stun gun and dragging me unconscious into his Corvette, which has such low seats that it was a breeze for him, and I couldn't be seen in the car, either.

If someone wants another person dead, they are going to shoot. If they want to CONTROL someone else with threats, then the target has a good chance of surviving. You don't know which you are until the gun is there, though.

Always run, NEVER go with anyone who threatens you with a gun, knife, or other weapon. That's all I can say to anyone reading this. Do not get in their vehicle. Do not go anywhere except opposite direction in a zig zag fast running pace. Ray would have known this from prosecuting kidnapping and rape cases where victims were threatened with a weapon.

I am alive because I ran and then later, the second time, because I knew not to try to fight what was happening when I regained consciousness and was bound, gagged, blindfolded and handcuffed. Anything I did would have made my pain worse. It's instinctual, I think.
 
the stun gun is interesting, wasn't there room for a car to pull up right next to the mini?

I just feel that other than levitation, it is hard to imagine how he disappeared so completely.

also Ray may have known he was being tailed..his behavior in the last few days could be interrpeted as secretive and harried which speaks to something going on. I think someone out there knows what happened to Ray. MOO
 
the stun gun is interesting, wasn't there room for a car to pull up right next to the mini?

I just feel that other than levitation, it is hard to imagine how he disappeared so completely.

also Ray may have known he was being tailed..his behavior in the last few days could be interrpeted as secretive and harried which speaks to something going on. I think someone out there knows what happened to Ray. MOO

Hi, don't have any reason to believe a stun gun was ever used on Mr. Gricar. I was telling what happened to me, when the abductor had a gun but wanted a live victim, so did not use his gun.

I do not subscribe to the theory that Mr. Gricar was abducted but that he drove away from Lewisburg in a car he had waiting on him in Lewisburg.

I'd say he was anything but harried or secretive, either, in his last known days. He took time off work to " loaf" two days in one week. He was taking naps, he was described more as being depressed and absentminded or preoccupied. Also, there's no indication that he acted in a secretive manner. His last known phone call ( we do not have the phone logs) was to the CC Court House, he spoke to Patty to tell her where he was on the road in the Mini Cooper, and to please look after her elderly dog, as he would not be home to do so.

The only secretive things I believe he did was to leave home behind and not return. JMO.
 
Wasn't Ray seen going in and out of his office at odd hours etc..? seems I remember some questionable behavior that was observed on video and commented on by co-workers etc.

I know we went back and forth on a few of these "open to interpretation" pieces to the puzzle.

Correct me if I am wrong on this, could be depression, could be troubled by something, could be both, could be nothing.

MOO
 
Wasn't Ray seen going in and out of his office at odd hours etc..? seems I remember some questionable behavior that was observed on video and commented on by co-workers etc.

I know we went back and forth on a few of these "open to interpretation" pieces to the puzzle.

Correct me if I am wrong on this, could be depression, could be troubled by something, could be both, could be nothing.

MOO

Meaning of " Harried": to harass, annoy, or prove a nuisance to by or as if by repeated attacks."

I described what has been said about Mr. Gricar's behavior. He was not harried, as the main synonym is " Harassed".

It has been said that he often went to his office in the evenings to do work when it was quieter in the CC court house. That it wasn't unusual or alarming according to the ADA staff and other co-workers. He lived very close to the court house.

There are tons of words here about a change in demeanor before he left for Lewisburg. However, a print out computer map to Lewisburg was found in his office after he disappeared.
Thus, the trip was on his mind, and the map suggests he may have given Faxed, phone or email directions to someone unfamiliar with the area.

" Depression" requires more than a layperson's observation to interpret correctly.
I think, from what's been said by co-workers, that he was preoccupied. IMO, it's likely the changes in his life that were forthcoming was the cause. I believe he chose to leave for a reason or reasons known to him, to build a new life of his choosing and did so successfully. We should recall that no body has ever been found nor even a single sign of foul play.
 
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the stun gun is interesting, wasn't there room for a car to pull up right next to the mini?

I just feel that other than levitation, it is hard to imagine how he disappeared so completely.

also Ray may have known he was being tailed..his behavior in the last few days could be interrpeted as secretive and harried which speaks to something going on. I think someone out there knows what happened to Ray. MOO

Even with a stun gun, the killer would have to get RFG into another vehicle. The Mini was parked in the last space, roughly east to west. On the north, there was a tree. Only if the south spot was empty could a car pull next to the Mini.

The bloodhound did track RFG's sent for about 20 yards away from that spot, but not outside of the parking lot.

RFG's demeanor changes were noted at least 5 weeks before he disappeared. Looking at his behavior the day before, RFG was not behaving like someone who was worried about an attack.
 
Hi everyone! Late to this discussion. I read the overview of the case and this thread.
Here's my take. While there is always concern about the safety of LE, and of course a D.A., I think this is a voluntary disappearance. We now know he was searching for info on how to permanently delete info on a hard disk, and it was found separated from his computer.

I speculate he might have been tucking away funds offshore, and quietly exited to a new life.
The motive? I have no idea. It could have been terminal illness, a romance, a perceived threat of some sort, or just wanting to escape to a simpler life. I think most people have fantasized about such an escape at least once in their lives...I think this guy just acted on it.

100% amateur opinion and speculation
 
Hi everyone! Late to this discussion. I read the overview of the case and this thread.
Here's my take. While there is always concern about the safety of LE, and of course a D.A., I think this is a voluntary disappearance. We now know he was searching for info on how to permanently delete info on a hard disk, and it was found separated from his computer.

I speculate he might have been tucking away funds offshore, and quietly exited to a new life.
The motive? I have no idea. It could have been terminal illness, a romance, a perceived threat of some sort, or just wanting to escape to a simpler life. I think most people have fantasized about such an escape at least once in their lives...I think this guy just acted on it.

100% amateur opinion and speculation

Welcome to this case thread, RosesFromAngels. We've posted on so many cases together through the years, I'm glad to see you here.

What you believe is what I believe as well. The ' intrigue" mostly comes from the fact that he didn't HAVE to leave anywhere in a clandestine way.. He was single, he owed nothing as far as we can tell, and was 6 months from retirement after 30 years' service as a prosecutor.
He also had his one child, a daughter, in college...

For a long time, people were sure they'd hear about his remains being found. I ALWAYS thought he walked away. It was SO neat, and he was a very neat man, almost compulsively so. He left his office ready for the next person to step in, as far as we know. No loose ends anywhere except with the woman he was living with, and the matter of his daughter not knowing what happened to her dad.

Apparently, what HE needed for himself was greater than what he judged they needed with him or from him, which really isn't selfish considering the daughter moved to the PNW and has stayed there, and there was no commitment with the girlfriend he was living with for a year to year and a half.

I believe he was successful in leaving and going to somewhere he truly wanted to be. I have high hopes that there was a woman waiting for him to start their lives together. We don't know, but I do sincerely hope he found the one true great love of his life and they've had fabulous years of prosperity and health together.

Lastly, I hope he knows how many " strangers" wish him the very best in the world. Want him to have been happy, healthy, satisfied with the huge choice he made, and living a fulfilled life of his choosing.

No evidence points to foul play of any type. No DNA of any other person has ever been found, no signs of a struggle anywhere, and he was exactly where he said he'd be that first day, on April 15th, 2005.

Occam's Razor says " He left Lewisburg to go wherever he wanted to be for the future".


Thanks for joining us, and there are some fine points we find to discuss, even now. :) Please drop by when you can! I know you are so involved in the truly active cases but this one is a true case study in human behavior in the absence of known foul play. It's extremely entertaining to imagine what all he's done, where, and if there were sizeable funds waiting for him on a foreign shore. :)
 
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Several years ago, a songwriter friend of mine from my hometown of The Shoals, AL, and I were discussing the absolute pricelessness of life, both here and in heaven.
He shared some things with me, and I shared my story of wanting to live to hear the sounds of the world outside " waking up" the next AM, and to feel the quietness that comes in a small town at sunset, when families still gather to eat. I couldn't see the sun or the sunset for some torturous hours, but I knew the world was still turning.

He and I talked about those who have died way too soon in this world, some of the cases featured on WS, missing persons cases, and those who are likely deceased and those we just don't know about.
He was very moved by my personal account of fear and hope and trust in God in the midst of the fear, and also by me telling him about Ray Gricar, former D.A. of Centre Country, PA, and the facts known about his disappearance ( in a condensed version). I told him how heavily it weighed on my heart that I didn't know if Ray still got to see sunrises and sunsets and all the living in between.

My friend wrote a song, and it went unsung until just recently. It's now been released by a young man by the name of Alonzo Pennington. ( I know nothing at all about him, but this is exactly how my friend and I sat and talked about Ray's case .) I found it today, and wept like a child for the beautiful simplicity of truth in the words, and for the deep concern for all the missing, especially for this case which touches me so deeply.

I hope it's OK that I post a link to the song for all to hear who want to. I don't know WS rules about this any longer, or how to link it without it going to the site. " You Can't Put A Price On That" was written by Billy Lawson as a result of the two of us talking about the worth of every good, healthy breath we are able to take, regardless of where we are, and if anyone knows it or not at that time. This is from my heart and I believe it sums up Ray's life- the little girl, the baseball, the desire for more time, and the preciousness of life itself.

If the link is wrong, could someone please help change it instead of deleting it completely? Oh lord have mercy I do not want to get in trouble here, but this is about my fears of never seeing sunlight and sunset again, and about what I poured my heart out about the missing here on WS, especially Ray's case.

 
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What would you guys like to talk about other than septic tanks? :)

Most respectfully snipped for space.

Sorry Janna!

My skill sets (SAR/Military/Tribal Scout) and oath to my Native American teachers does not permit me to ignore any potential scenario because it is repugnant, unsettling, difficult or physically demanding. My whole life has been about getting to the facts, no matter where I have to crawl, climb or swim. "no stone un-turned" as it were. My only limit is having to work a job to pay for my home, food etc. I wish I had been wise enough to have made my passion my job.
 
Most respectfully snipped for space.

Sorry Janna!

My skill sets (SAR/Military/Tribal Scout) and oath to my Native American teachers does not permit me to ignore any potential scenario because it is repugnant, unsettling, difficult or physically demanding. My whole life has been about getting to the facts, no matter where I have to crawl, climb or swim. "no stone un-turned" as it were. My only limit is having to work a job to pay for my home, food etc. I wish I had been wise enough to have made my passion my job.

Posting with a twinkle of good humor in my eyes and a smile on my face:
I understand about not walking away from something ( or someone) because of the repugnance of bodily fluids or physically demanding part. That more or less sums up a goodly portion of my career as a nurse.If it's there, you clean it up.

But, as you know, we here on WS are never going to " solve" what happened to RFG. We can discuss it til our last breath on earth, but not solve it.

Because there is no urgency, because there is no process to be boots on ground in the entire world looking for a man who may have died a natural death by now, we really can spare ourselves a lot of nausea in this particular situation. I mean, if you lived with a septic tank in your yard, chances are, you'd not want to think about Ray Gricar being in one. Trust me on this. It's the stuff of nightmares, truly. I've been having them.

Part of being skilled is assessing the situation accurately and formulating a plan of action which fits the assessment.
My assessment is above. We are never going to solve the mystery of his disappearance.
Therefore, our discourse regarding his disappearance has the requirement to be both respectful to him and hopefully gentle with the descriptive terms chosen in our posts with our fellow posters.
It's the WS way. :)
 
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Oh and some new news! I now sit on the ASTM Committee for Search and Rescue! I get to help review and write SAR standards.

Had to share that. ;)
This is so cool. Super congrats, Tracker, for the recognition and responsibility. I am so very sure you deserve both, and that SAR is very lucky to have you in a position of leadership. :)
 
Welcome, Roses!

If I were sure RFG walked away, I would not be posting. The evidence does point away from some voluntary act.

BBM:
Hi, Everyone! I'm also new to the thread and late to join the longstanding discussion here, but the RG case has interested me ever since I saw the episode of "Disappeared" featuring RG years ago.

J.J., question for clarification: Are you saying that you think the preponderance of evidence points away from RG's disappearance being voluntary, or just that some of the evidence points away from voluntary and more toward involuntary? IMO, I actually think that at least as much, if not more, of the evidence points toward RG voluntarily disappearing himself, either via suicide or walkaway. I'm in the "RG went voluntarily missing" camp with the most likely scenario IMO being suicide based on the totality of what is known. (I consider suicide to be a voluntary act, so I count it among the voluntarily missing scenarios that are possible in this case).
 
Hi everyone! Late to this discussion. I read the overview of the case and this thread.
Here's my take. While there is always concern about the safety of LE, and of course a D.A., I think this is a voluntary disappearance. We now know he was searching for info on how to permanently delete info on a hard disk, and it was found separated from his computer.

I speculate he might have been tucking away funds offshore, and quietly exited to a new life.
The motive? I have no idea. It could have been terminal illness, a romance, a perceived threat of some sort, or just wanting to escape to a simpler life. I think most people have fantasized about such an escape at least once in their lives...I think this guy just acted on it.

100% amateur opinion and speculation

BBM: RFA, I agree. I think this RG's was a voluntary disappearance, and RG's searches on "how to fry a hard drive" + the hard drive being removed from the laptop + both being tossed into water are all huge indicators of RG making some type of intentional plan and then executing it. While I do think it is remotely possible that he ran off to start a new life, sadly, I think suicide is more likely to be what happened in this case and his body has just never been recovered. JMO.
 
BBM: RFA, I agree. I think this RG's was a voluntary disappearance, and RG's searches on "how to fry a hard drive" + the hard drive being removed from the laptop + both being tossed into water are all huge indicators of RG making some type of intentional plan and then executing it. While I do think it is remotely possible that he ran off to start a new life, sadly, I think suicide is more likely to be what happened in this case and his body has just never been recovered. JMO.

IMO, as a person who's posted on his case from the day it became a WS case for discussion, I've reached the conclusion long ago that the simplest and best answer is that he did walk away. There is no evidence of foul play, no evidence of any wrong doing whatsoever.
We have, at various times, tried to link or tie his case in with other famous ( or infamous) PA cases of either murder or other serious crime and since we had to more or less take these case facts and twist them into a Gordian Knot of their own, no other known crime ever dovetailed into his disappearance on April 15, 2005.

He left/ disappeared at the age of 59, so he could be deceased of natural causes by now and we'll maybe never know anything more.
There's a chance he went to Slovenia as that is an ancestral home and he'd visited his relatives there years before he disappeared. Thus, there was an established relationship, which I think is important but no LE agency could ever get a tip on his whereabouts in Europe, if he went there to live.

Thanks for joining us. :) Whatever happened to him, it's a very interesting case, IMO. Lots of twists and turns, but it all comes back to no evidence of foul play, or suicide, which leaves walkaway as the most likely theory. I hope he did walk away and I hope he's had a great life since 2005.
 
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BBM:
Hi, Everyone! I'm also new to the thread and late to join the longstanding discussion here, but the RG case has interested me ever since I saw the episode of "Disappeared" featuring RG years ago.

J.J., question for clarification: Are you saying that you think the preponderance of evidence points away from RG's disappearance being voluntary, or just that some of the evidence points away from voluntary and more toward involuntary? IMO, I actually think that at least as much, if not more, of the evidence points toward RG voluntarily disappearing himself, either via suicide or walkaway. I'm in the "RG went voluntarily missing" camp with the most likely scenario IMO being suicide based on the totality of what is known. (I consider suicide to be a voluntary act, so I count it among the voluntarily missing scenarios that are possible in this case).

My error. That should be points away from involuntary actions. Suicide is a voluntary act, among other acts. A voluntary act is about 75% likely.
 
Who here believes that if the contents of the hard drive had been salvaged by the FBI the mystery of what happened to RG would be solved? (Raises hand).
My error. That should be points away from involuntary actions. Suicide is a voluntary act, among other acts. A voluntary act is about 75% likely.

Thanks for that clarification, J.J.! :)

Separate (2-part) question for you and others here on the thread:
a) Do you think that if the FBI had been able to retrieve the contents of the hard drive on RG's laptop, the mystery of what happened to him would have been solved by the info it contained?
b) I know this calls for pure conjecture, but what are people thinking may have been on that hard drive that made RG so desperate to obliterate it entirely?
 
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Who here believes that if the contents of the hard drive had been salvaged by the FBI the mystery of what happened to RG would be solved? (Raises hand).


Thanks for that clarification, J.J.! :)

Separate (2-part) question for you and others here on the thread:
a) Do you think that if the FBI had been able to retrieve the contents of the hard drive on RG's laptop, the mystery of what happened to him would have been solved by the info it contained?
b) I know this is pure conjecture, but what are people thinking may have been on that hard drive that made RG so desperate to obliterate it entirely?

Great questions, GK.

My opinion is different...
1) I'm not positive, but I don't tend to believe the contents of the HD ALONE would have led to Ray's door. I believe he used more than one method of erasure becauses he was a meticulous person, but I think he also was able to delete many things himself.
He has a nephew who is in IT. He could have shown him how to remove the partitions and data on a Windows system easily with a " junker" laptop. ( which is pretty much what Ray had, an old junker). Also, I have 2 family members who have high level careers using a great deal of IT. They have both said, without me asking, that if they truly wanted to destroy a HD, they'd use their own skills at overwriting code and de-partitioning the HD, then would use a software program, then would submerge the HD in water ( they said saltwater) for a period of months. Both said the abrasion of the saltwater is the reason they'd use saline water over fresh water. We know the grit on the banks and bottom of the Susquehanna likely served the exact same purpose. He was one smart man!

I believe he spread his methods of communication and planning out over more than one or two methods. Likely,in 2005, burner phones used by 2 people many miles or a continent apart would have been secure enough. I believe he might have been concerned that one or two pieces of correspondence might have been on the laptop, or just work notes.

I think he loved outwitting LE, loved not having a woman beg and cry about his imminent leaving, ( which she did after he left anyway) and left exactly the way he wanted to, a puzzle inside a riddle. Otherwise, would we still be talking about Ray Frank Gricar who disappeared on tax filing day, April 15, 2005, 13+ years later? No. :)

2) I believe the contents of the HD fall into one of two categories or possibly a combo of both:
a) It was work related, old cases, not meant for public scrutiny but totally benign with the original case files located in the CC Court House DA's office.
b) He kept or thought he might have kept a small amount of personal correspondence between he and an unknown person who was the person he wanted to live the rest of his life with, and/or helpers of either sex to help him with his plan of " 50 ways to leave his lover". :)
In either case, it doesn't have to be one or the other, but a collection of both types of personal emails.

I think he definitely could have taken one year of planning to get this leavetaking just right. I see him as a very meticulous person, very ordered and extremely, superbly intelligent. He would have covered every contingency possible, I believe. Also, I think he was quite driven to outsmart LE without committing a crime ( staging any sign of kidnapping or other abduction).

Why would he want it destroyed?
This also has multiple parts.
a) We have reason to believe he was not a tech savvy person. It might have weighed heavily on his mind from the beginning that there were emails between he and Lady Love.. He might have been worried that they would give his plan away or reveal her name.
b) He was a very private man. He was what I'd call " reserved". He had no way to know his missing case would go national, then international, but he likely would have known " They'll look through my computer files so I'll get rid of what I don't want known".
c) The fact that he mentioned both the disappearance of Mel Wiley in OH ( an unsolved missing persons case believed to be a walkaway of a retired OH sheriff Ray knew about) and the hard drive erasure more than once shows it was on his mind. That when he was not covered up with work, he was pondering his past actions and his future plans. This is the mind of a very intelligent man who is always planning.

All of this is likely not linear. It was happening at the same time, more of a group of related thoughts and actions at the same time than 1, 2, 3, 4. I needed a way to outline it, though.

I could be very wrong, all or any of us could be. We don't know, but this is my hypothesis based on what I think initiated his strong desire to leave so close to retirement ( My top choice is a lover who lived elsewhere, possibly even out of the US; Second choice is overseas or other offshore life savings he needed to access- think Slovenian relatives here; Last would be a request to help with an international crime investigation and prosecution out of the US, or other reason.)

I hope this makes sense and answers what you are asking.
Short answer- I think he left to be with someone he wanted to be with very much, and did not want that person's ID known, or their whereabouts together known. Maybe because of who the other person is, maybe because of him. Files most likely deal with this, but again, I think he would never have been or allowed the other person to be explicit in planning online. Burner phones used by both in 2005 might have worked.. he might have wondered and worried that a few details were on the HD..
 
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