PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #16

[J. J. in Phila]

I think the ash came from who ever moved the car. I do not believe Ray moved the car. Perhaps someone saw the car being moved assuming it was Ray. mOO

note, I know the dogs picked up Ray's scent but it could have been anything right? maybe even a jacket that was removed from the car.

mOO

People saw him driving. The ash was on the passenger side.

 

[minazoe]

I know it was on the passenger side but all someone has to do is lean over to check the glovebox from the drivers side, or come on the passenger side to look under the seat or remove something.

Ray would not allow smoking in that car even if you were on fire. so, I am of the opinion that this cigarette ash appeared post mortem, and not enough was made of this discovery.

the witness knew Ray? the witness who saw him move that car on that day.

I just have trouble with it, because somethings are just so wrong about this thing.

the image of Ray.
the reality of Ray as kind of a broke guy on paper.
the image of Ray destroying a hard drive.

It takes a lot of major hutzpah to be a prosecutor, to go up against the worst of society.

it also exposed Ray to much that could hurt or tempt even the strongest of men.

it exposed him and made him a potential victim as well..the money is a huge mystery... HUGE.

mOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

At least two independent witnesses saw him moving the Mini in the parking lot.

There was no evidence of a search, and the car was not wiped down.

RFG was more than $110,000 (gross) each year after his divorce. He had no assets and hasn't bought anything that would account for that.

Destroying the hard drive is perhaps the most easily explained, since RFG wanted to get rid of the data more than a year prior to his disappearance.

 

[minazoe]

hiding financial transactions...we at web sleuths are not stoopid ... I mean maybe he was paying for everything..but 125 a week in cash? that's it?

Ray does what he does for a reason. he pays cash for a car for a reason.

no car payments nothing of note... I mean were his cards jacked up?

I would love to see his monthly outgoing expenses.

as would you and many others, I'm sure. mOO

 

[pittsburghgirl]

People saw him driving. The ash was on the passenger side.

I don't know how trustworthy any of those reports are.

 

[minazoe]

I don't know how trustworthy any of those reports are.

this is what I'm saying..they know the car maybe they saw someone of a similar height , weight or coloring that moved the car, maybe they really only saw the car but they think they saw Ray move it..they just saw the red mini pull into the lot.

unreliable in my mind. mOO

 

[pittsburghgirl]

this is what I'm saying..they know the car maybe they saw someone of a similar height , weight or coloring that moved the car, maybe they really only saw the car but they think they saw Ray move it..they just saw the red mini pull into the lot.

unreliable in my mind. mOO

Way too much in this case has become seen as "fact" when there is not objective evidence. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. I think it's possible he never got to Lewisburg. Whose testimony do we have that he was even going there?

 

[minazoe]

interesting idea..but I think when they have a string of witnesses and can map out movement and a timeline it becomes harder to discredit...however. I think he may have been seen there, just maybe not the way they have the pieces..maybe if you shuffle the pieces a little it shakes things up. Maybe there is not enough evidence
(hard evidence) to commit so totally to this time line..for all we know Ray could have been framed for his own disappearance. shuffle the time line..look at what if's..

I don't think he chucked the laptop out of the car window from the drivers side.

for all we know he was grabbed elsewhere and whoever do this knew his plans and
took the car and left it in Lewisburg. for all we know people only thought they saw Ray, when in fact they only saw his car.

I want video of him in an antique store with a woman on that day.

you are absolutely right..he may have never even made it to Lewisburg, and someone set this whole ruse up.

mOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I don't know how trustworthy any of those reports are.

It came from LE.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Way too much in this case has become seen as "fact" when there is not objective evidence. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. I think it's possible he never got to Lewisburg. Whose testimony do we have that he was even going there?

Too many witnesses and too much physical evidence for that. All the witnesses have to wrong, including one who recognized him.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

interesting idea..but I think when they have a string of witnesses and can map out movement and a timeline it becomes harder to discredit...however. I think he may have been seen there, just maybe not the way they have the pieces..maybe if you shuffle the pieces a little it shakes things up. Maybe there is not enough evidence
(hard evidence) to commit so totally to this time line..for all we know Ray could have been framed for his own disappearance. shuffle the time line..look at what if's..

I don't think he chucked the laptop out of the car window from the drivers side.

for all we know he was grabbed elsewhere and whoever do this knew his plans and
took the car and left it in Lewisburg. for all we know people only thought they saw Ray, when in fact they only saw his car.

I want video of him in an antique store with a woman on that day.

you are absolutely right..he may have never even made it to Lewisburg, and someone set this whole ruse up.

mOO

The problem is that it got stronger. Someone who was at least familiar with RFG prior to 4/15 saw him in Lewisburg.

Saturday, 4/16, is another matter.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

This is from a letter from the editor of Penn Live (Patriot-News):

"
We’re heartened by your strong response to our work.We’re also glad to see you’re interested in other enterprise reporting now on PennLive and in The Patriot-News. In fact, the top story for new digital subscribers this week was Wallace McKelvey’s examination of the Ray Gricar disappearance."


Stories not to be missed: Letter from the Editor

15 years later there is still interest in the story.

 

[minazoe]

very attractive picture of Ray. mOO

 

[pittsburghgirl]

At least two independent witnesses saw him moving the Mini in the parking lot.

There was no evidence of a search, and the car was not wiped down.

RFG was more than $110,000 (gross) each year after his divorce. He had no assets and hasn't bought anything that would account for that.

Destroying the hard drive is perhaps the most easily explained, since RFG wanted to get rid of the data more than a year prior to his disappearance.

They saw a guy in a dark blue fleece, right? Eyewitness testimony is notably unreliable.

You've pushed the RFG is a bad guy narrative and "he wanted to destroy evidence" narrative for years. That's why I hardly ever visit this thread.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

They saw a guy in a dark blue fleece, right? Eyewitness testimony is notably unreliable.

You've pushed the RFG is a bad guy narrative and "he wanted to destroy evidence" narrative for years. That's why I hardly ever visit this thread.

No, they saw a guy in a Mini wearing a blue fleece, who looked like RFG, and one of them knew him and recognized him in Lewisburg. That was the one piece of new information in the last article.

I have not suggested that RFG "Wanted to destroy evidence." I have suggested that RFG wanted to destroy what was on the laptop. Why?

1. He searched how to do it on the Internet.

2. He bought software to erase the data, about a year before he disappeared.

3. He asked other people how to do it, about a year before he disappeared.

It is a no-brainer to say that RFG wanted to destroy what was on the laptop. That might not fit with some theory, but if the theory doesn't match the evidence, toss out the theory, not the evidence.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'd add that I can see nothing "bad" about anyone wanting to destroy data on a computer that was used for work and home, especially when work involves confidential information. I even question if it was tied to his disappearance.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I thought maybe there would have been more activity, since the pandemic has everyone locked down.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is a podcast from last year: CONSPIRACY: Ray Gricar, a playlist on Spotify

 

[Doyle1]

There is a well done summation (moo) of the Gricar case on the Trace Evidence podcast. I believe it is episode #72.

 

[Hastings21]

Does anyone think that this Ray may have been placed in a witness protection program?