PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #7

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Re: Ray's money
The relatively low $100,000 or so (slighly over but not much over, according to one of the original reports) was money that was in a JOINT account with his daughter.

The daughter was later asked if that was all the money Ray had and her reply was words to the effect of "that's personal information".

Being a person of a certain age - and I'm there - a prudent person will put SOME of their money into a joint account with a trusted child. Not ALL of it. The fact that there was $100,000 in a joint account would make me think there was much more somewhere else.

Ray was in relationships with working wives/paramours (what a word!) throughout his life. Combined income had to be fairly high throughout. So it is not like he would have been strapped just supporting the family on his income alone. Granted, he was likely paying for his daughter's college. But even that would not deplete a lifetime of work income.

I think there was more money in other accounts. The daughter would know this, since she was/is the trustee/administrator of his estate.

I wish the family members, friends, and loved ones would sit for an interview at this time and just "put it all out there". Every single thing they know.


Here is an article, written way back when, that has a lot of information about one of the original press conferences given in the case. Given today's perspective, it is quite some read:

http://www.yardbird.com/midnight_ride_another_missing_PA_prosecutor_2.htm


And here we arrived at what is a real problem from the outset of the Ray Gricar missing person investigation. I inquired about the very real possibility that Gricar may have been stalked by a vengeful supplier connected to the "million-and-a-half-dollar" heroin and cocaine ring Gricar had just helped shut down. Gricar's photograph, I pointed out, had been prominently displayed on a press release issued by the office of Pennsylvania Attorney General Tom Corbett. This observation, regrettably, made the family flinch. (Gricar had also missed a drug hearing the Monday following his weekend disappearance.) "They're looking into that," Chief Dixon said, addressing the possible connection with the drug case. Then, just as quickly, he amazingly dismissed this line of inquiry as a theory someone somewhere deemed not worthy of exhaustive exploration. Referring to decisions already made somewhere in Attorney General Corbett's office, Dixon said, for some reason "they don't think" the recent, "million-and-a-half-dollar" drug case involving alleged middleman Taji "Verbal" Lee had anything to do with DA Gricar's strange disappearance. Though Chief Dixon has jurisdiction in the missing person case, he was strangely ceding authority in this area to others.

'Everybody in town already knew what Ray looked like.' Gricar (l) pictured in drug bust press release, published on the net two weeks before his vanishing
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for Gricar's photo on the internet press release, Chief Dixon all but dismissed any possible threat with a scoff, saying the photo was of no real concern because,"everybody in town already knew what Ray looked like." It apparently is not being considered that a heinous crime could have been committed by someone from outside of Happy Valley; say, perhaps, from New York, where billions of dollars in heroin yearly filters in from abroad.

Though Gricar's now-hapless-seeming face was pasted all over the advertisement in the marketplace, the case was being taken to the kitchen and prosecuted, after all, not by Gricar, Chief Dixon said, but by Senior Deputy Attorney General Michael T. Madeira. And so, Dixon concluded, "they" don't think Ray would be a target, and "they" had apparently ruled out a meticulous raking of the transcripts and questioning of those involved in the case for leads and clues to Ray Gricar's disappearance. It's unbelievable and, if he were most people's father, it would be wholly unacceptable. Things like that just didn't happen in Happy Valley, he might as well have said. Well wake up guys and smell the vinegar in the heroin; maybe now they do."
 
Re: Ray's money
The relatively low $100,000 or so (slighly over but not much over, according to one of the original reports) was money that was in a JOINT account with his daughter.

The daughter was later asked if that was all the money Ray had and her reply was words to the effect of "that's personal information".

Being a person of a certain age - and I'm there - a prudent person will put SOME of their money into a joint account with a trusted child. Not ALL of it. The fact that there was $100,000 in a joint account would make me think there was much more somewhere else.

Even in college, I had join accounts with my father. The purpose was in case something happened to him, I could write checks.

There, however, could have been an element of estate planning (think Joe Paterno). RFG put the Mini in PEF's name, but drove it exclusively. He paid on her mortgage (which wasn't huge), but didn't put his name on the deed. He has the joint account.

Ray was in relationships with working wives/paramours (what a word!) throughout his life. Combined income had to be fairly high throughout. So it is not like he would have been strapped just supporting the family on his income alone. Granted, he was likely paying for his daughter's college. But even that would not deplete a lifetime of work income.

For most, if not all, of the time after adopting LG, RFG had a lower income than her mother. Until 1996, he was considered part time. In 1993 (I have the numbers; they were published), his salary was $40,000.



Here is an article, written way back when, that has a lot of information about one of the original press conferences given in the case. Given today's perspective, it is quite some read:

I'm not a big fan of the author.

The problem with the photo is that there are about ten other people in it. Why they would suddenly target RFG makes no sense. Even a random encounter doesn't work too well.
 
As I posted earlier, it was entirely possible for Ray to leave home and go to Lewisburg, meet with the unknown woman, then travel back to Bellefonte to do something real quick then back to Lewisburg. I understand the female assistant DA is unsure about what day she saw him, but at first she was pretty sure it was the Friday that Ray dissapeared. Since no one else has seen him in a silver car before that, I do think it was that Friday she saw him.

I've been thinking about why Ray would go back home again and then return to Lewisburg and a few thoughts came to mind. After reading the posts about Mel Wiley it made a lot of sense that Ray probably wondered for years what happened to him and more importantly, why a man would ever pack up and leave his family and just disappear like that. He probably was even consumed by this question for a long time back in the day.

Knowing that Ray had been questioning how to wipe his hard drive for a while, it seems he was either involved in something or had information on something that was a big deal. I don't think it was about credit card information or anything like that. Do we even know he had credit card info on his laptop? I know I don't. I think whatever the situation was, came to a head about a month before he left- this resulting in his changed demeanor. And it doesn't discredit the people saying his demeanor has changed, because a few people didn't notice. (I think females are usually more perceptive to demeanor changes anyway lol).

So, now Ray knows something has to give and it's just getting to the point where he has to do something. but what? I think he went to Lewisburg just to go shopping that morning and possible meet the woman he was seen with and something snapped. I think he looked at the river and thought of Mel and just disappearing and finally realized why someone would leave everything and everyone and just take off. People won't know if he was dead or alive. People wont know if he killed himself or was murdered. People wont know if he just left; the same questions people asked about Mel. Maybe he finally knew the answers he had to some questions he had for a while. It also didn't help that his brother had "disapeared" and was later found in the Miami River from an apparent suicide. I think both the disappearance of Mel Wiley and his brother guided him to a decision to leave...

I think he'd been wondering about the hard drive for a long time and now he made up his mind about what he was going to do, he decided to permenantly get rid of whatever was on the laptop. And to ensure no one would ever get the info off that harddrive, he threw both pieces in separately.

Again, thinking about why he would have returned home "real quick" that day - maybe he didn't actually have the laptop with him on the trip there and went back to get it. Because by then he had decided what he was gong to do. And then he swung by the court house to see if he could see Patty one last time..... And she wouldn't be looking for him in a silver car anyway.

So far everything Ray said and did and now knowing more about his background, it says to me that he decided to leave. It was all mentioned by him to others in the previous days, weeks and months before he disappeared.

I also think that he must have gone to OHIO soon after his disappearance. He had some closure to get there and I dont see him just flying to another country before returning to Ohio. People from Ohio have a very strong bond to that State for some reason. I dont think he would have flew off to Canada without going back to Ohio first.

And lastly, I'm not saying other people didn't get him afterwards. I'm not saying something didn't happen to him, but I think that day, he left because he thought he had to.
 
The question comes down to this; how did RFG get out of Lewisburg? I am sure he is not in the parking lot.
 
maybe he's in WP and the death declaration is fake and was done to further protect his family...because this thing is REDHOT and only just beginning.

In light of all this and the possibility that somehow our Ray is immersed in this...how do we even know that that is Ray's actual laptop?

uh...we don't know the serial number...we just look at the picture and put the whole issue to bed.

which is the whole point of it.

that would answer the laptop question of why he took it to begin with.

:takeabow:
--------
I also have been thinking that he could be in WP and working with investigators.
 
The problems with the WPP are:

1. It is a federal program, and so far, we don't have any federal crime.

2. RFG didn't witness anything.

3. The other folks in the 1998 case are still around, except B.K.
 
The question comes down to this; how did RFG get out of Lewisburg? I am sure he is not in the parking lot.

Very good, JJ ... I know you are vested in that parking lot, as I had seen the pictures you had taken, having conducted your own investigation there. I enjoy the 'tongue in cheek' on this one !!!
 
The problems with the WPP are:

1. It is a federal program, and so far, we don't have any federal crime.

2. RFG didn't witness anything.

3. The other folks in the 1998 case are still around, except B.K.

Very good points, JJ, as I have been wondering about these matters. Just what does a District Attorney HAVE to help protect themselves from threats as such ? Would not one think that the Feds WOULD allow such an elected official some such outlet to report, or make their case ? (the AG could have made a plea for him as well).

Perhaps RG indeed IS a witness ... look at the debate we have Here over just What had been on That Laptop !!! Did he have So Much of something that the Feds would be more than willing to help ?

Ok, no you have me on your Point 3...the reference to BK is beyond me...i hate to ask, but can you clue me in on that, it would be most appreciated...still working up on all the name abbreviations, sorry, it's the Newbie in me...send me, if you so choose, side bar. Many thanks
 
Taking the question how did he get out of the parking lot:

Either walked out or got into another vehicle. Were tracking dogs not used that indicated he only went a few feet from his vehicle in the parking lot?

JJ: I am not familiar with that author. Is the person not reputable or what? While the tone throughout the article was a bit too sarcastic for my own personal taste, I found the direct quotes spoken by the Chief of Police to be quite interesting. Lots of use of "they" when, if the BPD was the lead agency the pronoun should have been "we".

Oh, and I did want to let you know that I've been trying to figure out that "1% - other" in your breakdown statistics of what you think may have happened. I have come up with a few possibilities I thought you might enjoy:
1.) Beamed back up to the Mother Ship
2.) A crack in the sidewalk opened up and he fell into it
3.) Fell off the side of the earth
 
Ok, no you have me on your Point 3...the reference to BK is beyond me...i hate to ask, but can you clue me in on that, it would be most appreciated...still working up on all the name abbreviations, sorry, it's the Newbie in me...send me, if you so choose, side bar. Many thanks
I had the same question... I believe BK is victim #6, and is unable to be supeoned bcecause he is in the military service.
 
Regardless of theory (walk-away, murder) RFG left Lewisburg. The Susquehanna is not known for swallowing people......nearly everyone ever lost in the river is found eventually.
 
AlwaysShocked

Taking the question how did he get out of the parking lot:

Either walked out or got into another vehicle. Were tracking dogs not used that indicated he only went a few feet from his vehicle in the parking lot?


I perceive this as "got into another vehicle", since the dogs lost RG's scent...this was done AFTER the car had been removed from the parking lot...IIRC. The other car having been either the one RG had been seen in back in Bellefont (the silver one ?), or perhaps a different one. Either this was under duress, as him having been over-taken, the Mystery Woman some say he had been seen with, or some other accomplice. Like JJ had said earlier, just how did RG get out of Lewisburg ??? Great question !
 
you guys, I think we do have a federal crime...story is coming out on Sandusky taking one of the victims across state lines in order to molest him away from home.
 
Ok, thank you for the clarification...I need to start a name abbreviation list...lol

Hi, y'all. I guess I leave the basics to JJ... I'm sorry, JJ, and all.

No, Victim 6 is one boy ( now a young adult) and B.K. was a second, separate boy. The adult B.K. could not testify before the recent Grand Jury because he is overseas in the military.

So, Ray Gricar had some testimony of 2 separate boys at around the same time. While neither case may have been prosecutable, the presence of 2 complainants makes their individual cases stronger.

I hope this helps.
 
you guys, I think we do have a federal crime...story is coming out on Sandusky taking one of the victims across state lines in order to molest him away from home.

Yes, I've been talking to JJ about that. The Mann Act is a federal law meant to stop human sex trafficking from one state to another.
The FBI has jurisdiction to enter the invetigation at any point now, if they have not done so already.

ALSO, there MAY be a case for charges of kidnapping, which is also a federal crime.
Kidnapping as it applies to a minor means taking a child ANYWHERE the child does not want to go by a person who is not a custodial parent.

For example, IMO, a case could be made that MAKING a boy shower in a certain place where he didn't want to was kidnapping the child.
I know it sounds excessively restrictive, but look up the legal definition of Kidnapping.
 
AlwaysShocked

Taking the question how did he get out of the parking lot:

Either walked out or got into another vehicle. Were tracking dogs not used that indicated he only went a few feet from his vehicle in the parking lot?

I perceive this as "got into another vehicle", since the dogs lost RG's scent...this was done AFTER the car had been removed from the parking lot...IIRC. The other car having been either the one RG had been seen in back in Bellefont (the silver one ?), or perhaps a different one. Either this was under duress, as him having been over-taken, the Mystery Woman some say he had been seen with, or some other accomplice. Like JJ had said earlier, just how did RG get out of Lewisburg ??? Great question !

I do not find the leave-taking from Lewisburg ( in the theory of a voluntary walkaway) to be difficult. Ray Gricar was not a man with any distinguishing features. He was " everyman" in looks. Not excessively tall, short, thin, obese, nothing which " stands out" in a witness's mind, IMO.

ALL he had to have was ONE loyal friend who lived in the area.. and I believe he had several friends who would have helped him leave and never say a word. Friend drove an old spare car, what we call " a fishing car" around here-- and left the car in the gravel parking lot where the Mini was or was planned to be. Left the keys under the floor mat, door unlocked. The Friend then goes a few blocks on foot to a tire shop or general mechanic type shop and calls a buddy to pick him up as " the old car needed ________ tires, oil, who cares" and he needs a lift back home from the repair shop. WHO would question this? It happens in small towns without taxis all the time.

So Friend is out of the picture, at least temporarily. Ray Gricar gets into an older, nondescript car and drives to wherever he wanted to go- which is unknown to me. Maybe to an airstrip out of PA, maybe ditched the car in PA or maybe he is such a " blend in" person that he is living in PA and using the car now. We do not know.
We cannot know until or unless he is found.
He could be thousands of miles away from Lewisburg or 50 miles away.
We just do not know, nor can we accurately predict or theorize.
I don't think he was an especially social person anyway. Hiding in Pittsburgh or Philly would be a piece of cake for me, and I am not HALF as smart as Ray Gricar.
I do think I share his " can do, will do" spirit and meticulous way of thinking though. If you have the same neatness and attention to details, you won't be freaked out by leaving the familiar behind without a backwards glance. I did it 15 years ago. :). Changed every aspect of my life except one-- I continued to wear contact lens. If I had been leaving covertly, chances are that something extremely mundane such as needing new contact lens might have alerted someone IF they were actively looking for me where I went.

We have to remember that if he is alive, Ray Gricar never painted a bulls- eye on his back. He is " every man", as close as a man can be, according to what we KNOW about him..

I think what JJ was wanting us to think about was that IF he didn't LEAVE Lewisburg, then he was killed there. Where is the body?
I absolutely do not know how extensive the land searches were for a body. I know the Susquehanah River was searched by diver teams, etc and the river bank and parking lot with dogs, but beyond the small area, I have no clue as to what was done and how soon.
I know the area is wooded beyond the SoS area, on the other side of the bridge.. but not much is recorded or archived about grid searches on foot.
 
Thanks Minazoe and SeekingJana...helps clarify that question of meeting WPP guidelines for RG !!! Hmmmm
 
Taking the question how did he get out of the parking lot:

Either walked out or got into another vehicle. Were tracking dogs not used that indicated he only went a few feet from his vehicle in the parking lot?

JJ: I am not familiar with that author. Is the person not reputable or what? While the tone throughout the article was a bit too sarcastic for my own personal taste, I found the direct quotes spoken by the Chief of Police to be quite interesting. Lots of use of "they" when, if the BPD was the lead agency the pronoun should have been "we".

Oh, and I did want to let you know that I've been trying to figure out that "1% - other" in your breakdown statistics of what you think may have happened. I have come up with a few possibilities I thought you might enjoy:
1.) Beamed back up to the Mother Ship
2.) A crack in the sidewalk opened up and he fell into it
3.) Fell off the side of the earth

My favorite "other" is being eaten by a troll that lives under the bridge in Lewisburg. :)

Seriously, it includes things like an accident, amnesia, some sort a fugue state, and WPP.
 
I do not find the leave-taking from Lewisburg ( in the theory of a voluntary walkaway) to be difficult. Ray Gricar was not a man with any distinguishing features. He was " everyman" in looks. Not excessively tall, short, thin, obese, nothing which " stands out" in a witness's mind, IMO.

ALL he had to have was ONE loyal friend who lived in the area.. and I believe he had several friends who would have helped him leave and never say a word. Friend drove an old spare car, what we call " a fishing car" around here-- and left the car in the gravel parking lot where the Mini was or was planned to be. Left the keys under the floor mat, door unlocked. The Friend then goes a few blocks on foot to a tire shop or general mechanic type shop and calls a buddy to pick him up as " the old car needed ________ tires, oil, who cares" and he needs a lift back home from the repair shop. WHO would question this? It happens in small towns without taxis all the time.

So Friend is out of the picture, at least temporarily. Ray Gricar gets into an older, nondescript car and drives to wherever he wanted to go- which is unknown to me. Maybe to an airstrip out of PA, maybe ditched the car in PA or maybe he is such a " blend in" person that he is living in PA and using the car now. We do not know.
We cannot know until or unless he is found.
He could be thousands of miles away from Lewisburg or 50 miles away.
We just do not know, nor can we accurately predict or theorize.
I don't think he was an especially social person anyway. Hiding in Pittsburgh or Philly would be a piece of cake for me, and I am not HALF as smart as Ray Gricar.
I do think I share his " can do, will do" spirit and meticulous way of thinking though. If you have the same neatness and attention to details, you won't be freaked out by leaving the familiar behind without a backwards glance. I did it 15 years ago. :). Changed every aspect of my life except one-- I continued to wear contact lens. If I had been leaving covertly, chances are that something extremely mundane such as needing new contact lens might have alerted someone IF they were actively looking for me where I went.

We have to remember that if he is alive, Ray Gricar never painted a bulls- eye on his back. He is " every man", as close as a man can be, according to what we KNOW about him..

Basically, that is the walkaway theory.

I think what JJ was wanting us to think about was that IF he didn't LEAVE Lewisburg, then he was killed there. Where is the body?

Not necessarily. He could have been killed by the person who got him out of Lewisburg.

I absolutely do not know how extensive the land searches were for a body. I know the Susquehanah River was searched by diver teams, etc and the river bank and parking lot with dogs, but beyond the small area, I have no clue as to what was done and how soon.
I know the area is wooded beyond the SoS area, on the other side of the bridge.. but not much is recorded or archived about grid searches on foot.

That is basically the area I think they should be checking.
 
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