PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #9

[SeekingJana]

Welcome, Miss.

Based on what RFG's income was, he seems to have had a relatively small amount of assets.

His daughter got his pension.

JJ, haven't you stated this in a different way in the past? That Ray Gricar's salary and known savings/ expenditures didn't seem to mesh. That perhaps he had been putting money away for a time? I know I read this somewhere, and I think it was from you, right?

 

[cj327]

JJ, haven't you stated this in a different way in the past? That Ray Gricar's salary and known savings/ expenditures didn't seem to mesh. That perhaps he had been putting money away for a time? I know I read this somewhere, and I think it was from you, right?

I recall finding much of the detail on this particular issue here

http://www.centredaily.com/2009/04/06/2396744/income-and-assets.html

and

http://www.centredaily.com/2011/01/26/2479157/trip-money.html

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ, haven't you stated this in a different way in the past? That Ray Gricar's salary and known savings/ expenditures didn't seem to mesh. That perhaps he had been putting money away for a time? I know I read this somewhere, and I think it was from you, right?

Yes, that is how I expressed it. He seemed to have too little money saved up, based on what we know about his spending and his salary. He should have had more money, assets, saved up, based on his lifestyle. He grossed more that $100,000 per year from 1999 to 2005. Other than bank accounts, there were no known investments.

While it is likely that RFG paid some of his daughter's bills, her mother was earning slightly more than he did.

There is also a probability that he retained some assets from his 2001 divorce.

My guess would be that, after his divorce, RFG would have to be spending about $50,000 per year on himself/family/friends/charity to have ended up with the roughly $100 K he had in the bank, and that assume he ended his divorce totally broke.

 

[SeekingJana]

I recall finding much of the detail on this particular issue here

http://www.centredaily.com/2009/04/06/2396744/income-and-assets.html

and

http://www.centredaily.com/2011/01/26/2479157/trip-money.html

Yes. I've read JJ's blog from the beginning. Sometimes there is a PC compatibility problem but it straightens out when I change browsers to Chrome.

 

[SeekingJana]

Yes, that is how I expressed it. He seemed to have too little money saved up, based on what we know about his spending and his salary. He should have had more money, assets, saved up, based on his lifestyle. He grossed more that $100,000 per year from 1999 to 2005. Other than bank accounts, there were no known investments.

While it is likely that RFG paid some of his daughter's bills, her mother was earning slightly more than he did.

There is also a probability that he retained some assets from his 2001 divorce.

My guess would be that, after his divorce, RFG would have to be spending about $50,000 per year on himself/family/friends/charity to have ended up with the roughly $100 K he had in the bank, and that assume he ended his divorce totally broke.

Unless Ray had the WORST divorce attorney in the USA, or she hired a PI with big money shots ( giggle- which I totally doubt of course) , there's no way he was cleaned out in his divorce from EG.

ALL we really know is that she re-decorated the living room without his express consent. Didn't she work too? Or have the capability to work?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Unless Ray had the WORST divorce attorney in the USA, or she hired a PI with big money shots ( giggle- which I totally doubt of course) , there's no way he was cleaned out in his divorce from EG.

ALL we really know is that she re-decorated the living room without his express consent. Didn't she work too? Or have the capability to work?

EG was an optician. They make reasonably good money.

The house had a value of $190 k in the divorce. Even if EG got it to waive any pension, there still should have been other savings.

RFG is the one who filed for the divorce. EG did not.

 

[SeekingJana]

EG was an optician. They make reasonably good money.

The house had a value of $190 k in the divorce. Even if EG got it to waive any pension, there still should have been other savings.

RFG is the one who filed for the divorce. EG did not.

Then I'd say we agree that Emma didn't get a huge settlement. No children involved, relatively short marriage, etc.
Therefore, it also seems to me that we are in agreement that Ray Gricar may have had or may have funds in an undisclosed location.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Then I'd say we agree that Emma didn't get a huge settlement. No children involved, relatively short marriage, etc.
Therefore, it also seems to me that we are in agreement that Ray Gricar may have had or may have funds in an undisclosed location.

It seems like he should have had greater assets. There are some other red flags associated with it that I can't go into (LE has it).

However, even if we would assume that RFG had some other money out there, that would prove voluntary departure. Someone can shelter assets and still be murdered.

We do know he helped pay PEF's mortgage and that he paid for the Mini, but that still wouldn't account for it.

I can say that not having a lot of money in the bank or assets, or buying a lot of expensive things, is a reasonably good argument against bribery.

 

[SeekingJana]

Hi, JJ, I'm amending your quote as the word " not' changes the meaning of the sentence.

It seems like he should have had greater assets. There are some other red flags associated with it that I can't go into (LE has it).

However, even if we would assume that RFG had some other money out there, that would [not] prove voluntary departure. Someone can shelter assets and still be murdered.

We do know he helped pay PEF's mortgage and that he paid for the Mini, but that still wouldn't account for it.

I can say that not having a lot of money in the bank or assets, or buying a lot of expensive things, is a reasonably good argument against bribery.

Well, you know what I have thought about the plausible funding of a walkaway life. Not going to rehash the theory. Too many negative things have been said about Ray lately, and while I don't think my theory is negative about him AT ALL, many people seem to. ( probably not you, though. )

Maria

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Hi, JJ, I'm amending your quote as the word " not' changes the meaning of the sentence.

Well, you know what I have thought about the plausible funding of a walkaway life. Not going to rehash the theory. Too many negative things have been said about Ray lately, and while I don't think my theory is negative about him AT ALL, many people seem to. ( probably not you, though. )

Maria

Absolutely add the "not." My mistake.

To me, if RFG did walk away, that is his business. The only thing that would be problematic would be a flight to avoid prosecution. Well, there is no evidence that he did anything illegal, though I'll concede that it is possible.

As for the assets, he could put them in a non-monetary form, like buying $75,000 worth of gold. He also could have had offshore accounts, that produce higher interest.

 

[MissJ]

Absolutely add the "not." My mistake.

To me, if RFG did walk away, that is his business. The only thing that would be problematic would be a flight to avoid prosecution. Well, there is no evidence that he did anything illegal, though I'll concede that it is possible.

As for the assets, he could put them in a non-monetary form, like buying $75,000 worth of gold. He also could have had offshore accounts, that produce higher interest.

Yes, JJ, it is his business. I just hope, for his sake, that he is alive and well out there and enjoying his life. Thanks for your post

 

[SeekingJana]

Yes, JJ, it is his business. I just hope, for his sake, that he is alive and well out there and enjoying his life. Thanks for your post

I think everyone on this forum hopes Ray Gricar is alive and well somewhere. I've said it now for 7 years on WS. Glad you are here with us.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Yes, JJ, it is his business. I just hope, for his sake, that he is alive and well out there and enjoying his life. Thanks for your post

I came up with 5 or 6 reasons, recently, why RFG could have walked away. Some are financial, personal, or security related and they could be there in combination. I'm not worried about them; they are not truly evidential. Most are not provable. They could be in combination.

I happened across a few people insist that I couldn't show any, and scream even more loudly when I do.

I hope RFG is out there enjoying his retirement. I'd want evidence that he wasn't murdered, or committed suicide, in the week of 4/15-4/22/05.

For me, the key question is, "Okay, if RFG left on his own, how did he get out of Lewisburg?" That remains the key question.

 

[Kiln Wood]

I came up with 5 or 6 reasons, recently, why RFG could have walked away. Some are financial, personal, or security related and they could be there in combination. I'm not worried about them; they are not truly evidential. Most are not provable. They could be in combination.

I happened across a few people insist that I couldn't show any, and scream even more loudly when I do.

I hope RFG is out there enjoying his retirement. I'd want evidence that he wasn't murdered, or committed suicide, in the week of 4/15-4/22/05.

For me, the key question is, "Okay, if RFG left on his own, how did he get out of Lewisburg?" That remains the key question.

BBM

Perhaps a friend who has remained silent gave him a ride? Not in a legal sense, but could we term this possible friend an "accomplice to Ray's disappearance?"

 

[J. J. in Phila]

BBM

Perhaps a friend who has remained silent gave him a ride? Not in a legal sense, but could we term this possible friend an "accomplice to Ray's disappearance?"

I use the term, "helper." It is possible.

You might see me use the term "Inner Circle." That is a group of RFG's co-workers, former co-workers, friends, old girl friends and ex-wives, long term associates, that might have driven him out of Lewisburg, or could made a straw purchase or straw rental of vehicle and gave it to him.

That Inner Circle is about 20-25 people. Two of them, PEF and the 1st Assistant DA, Smith, are partially eliminated, because we have some idea where they were on 4/15. It is highly unlikely that any of them were involved in any violence against RFG, but all were relatively loyal to him.

 

[SeekingJana]

I use the term, "helper." It is possible.

You might see me use the term "Inner Circle." That is a group of RFG's co-workers, former co-workers, friends, old girl friends and ex-wives, long term associates, that might have driven him out of Lewisburg, or could made a straw purchase or straw rental of vehicle and gave it to him.

That Inner Circle is about 20-25 people. Two of them, PEF and the 1st Assistant DA, Smith, are partially eliminated, because we have some idea where they were on 4/15. It is highly unlikely that any of them were involved in any violence against RFG, but all were relatively loyal to him.

Ah, here is one point where our opinions diverge. I don't count PFo out on any part of what is known to be said by her as " factual". Also, time and again, we have been shown that sometimes, people disappear because they were victims of crimes of passion. This starts with the innermost circle of all, PFo.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Ah, here is one point where our opinions diverge. I don't count PFo out on any part of what is known to be said by her as " factual". Also, time and again, we have been shown that sometimes, people disappear because they were victims of crimes of passion. This starts with the innermost circle of all, PFo.

She was in public places from 8:30 AM until about 7:50 PM. She was in Bellefonte and it is 1+ hours from Lewisburg. She didn't drive RFG out or meet him with a car in Lewisburg.

 

[SeekingJana]

She was in public places from 8:30 AM until about 7:50 PM. She was in Bellefonte and it is 1+ hours from Lewisburg. She didn't drive RFG out or meet him with a car in Lewisburg.

No one saw him at all that day until we have the unconfirmed Lewisburg sightings. She has 2 stories about the AM. One was that he was awake, the other that he was asleep when she left for work. We really don't know what happened on the night of the 14th late until SOMEONE using his cell phone on the general route to Lewisburg made a call to the court house.
We only have her word that it was him, and only her word about what was said.
IDK, I don't think she had anything to do with it, but I have read a lot of theories lately which say she isn't the innocent people have thought. IDK why, exactly. Maybe they are paranoid, or would rather he be dead at her hand than alive without her, which REALLY makes me mad.

There might possibly be a little wiggle room somewhere in her statements though. I never thought so, but I have wondered recently because some people in the Bellefonte area seem so convinced that he met with foul play and she ( and possibly one of her family members) was behind it.

As it stands, I think she is innocent. Nothing points to her, IMO. Just throwing this out, because some people believe it so strongly elsewhere.

 

[Kiln Wood]

No one saw him at all that day until we have the unconfirmed Lewisburg sightings. She has 2 stories about the AM. One was that he was awake, the other that he was asleep when she left for work. We really don't know what happened on the night of the 14th late until SOMEONE using his cell phone on the general route to Lewisburg made a call to the court house.
We only have her word that it was him, and only her word about what was said.
IDK, I don't think she had anything to do with it, but I have read a lot of theories lately which say she isn't the innocent people have thought. IDK why, exactly. Maybe they are paranoid, or would rather he be dead at her hand than alive without her, which REALLY makes me mad.

There might possibly be a little wiggle room somewhere in her statements though. I never thought so, but I have wondered recently because some people in the Bellefonte area seem so convinced that he met with foul play and she ( and possibly one of her family members) was behind it.
As it stands, I think she is innocent. Nothing points to her, IMO. Just throwing this out, because some people believe it so strongly elsewhere.

BBM

Does anyone have any idea why people may believe this or what has convinced them? Although this may have been posted earlier on the RFG thread(s), I don't recall seeing this before, and I find it interesting.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

No one saw him at all that day until we have the unconfirmed Lewisburg sightings. She has 2 stories about the AM. One was that he was awake, the other that he was asleep when she left for work. We really don't know what happened on the night of the 14th late until SOMEONE using his cell phone on the general route to Lewisburg made a call to the court house.

PEF said that he went back to sleep.

There were 9 reported witnesses that say him alive after 10 AM on 4/15/05. There is a record of his cell phone call from the Brush Valley area.
The Mini was found in Lewisburg, with no evidence anyone else drove it there; several witnesses saw RFG driving it there. His DNA was in a water bottle in the Mini. His scent was detected by the dogs in the parking lot where the Mini was found.

That has never been reported, but one of the witnesses knew RFG slightly.

We only have her word that it was him, and only her word about what was said.

Aside from willingly talking to LE, she did a four hour sit down with two DA's from other counties, that were friends of RFG's. She also passed a polygraph.

IDK, I don't think she had anything to do with it, but I have read a lot of theories lately which say she isn't the innocent people have thought. IDK why, exactly. Maybe they are paranoid, or would rather he be dead at her hand than alive without her, which REALLY makes me mad.

Well, if someone can tell me how she drove the Mini to Lewisburg, dropped it off, and then got back to Bellefonte in the space of about 45 minutes (it's a two hour drive, round trip.), maybe I'd start looking at her.

There might possibly be a little wiggle room somewhere in her statements though. I never thought so, but I have wondered recently because some people in the Bellefonte area seem so convinced that he met with foul play and she ( and possibly one of her family members) was behind it.

She, and her family member, are accounted for. Having seen photos of her brother, there is no way he'd ever be mistaken for RFG. There is also the problem of hiding the body, so it isn't found for 7 1/2 years.

As it stands, I think she is innocent. Nothing points to her, IMO. Just throwing this out, because some people believe it so strongly elsewhere.

I had a great theory, involving PEF, but it involved her being at the gym and in Lewisburg at the same time, and now would probably involve her being parachuted into Bellefonte.

BTW, she was financially worse off when RFG disappeared.

Smith, the 1st ADA, is the other person that I've ruled out as a helper, and I don't think anyone in the Inner Circle killed RFG.