PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, former district attorney, Bellefonte, 15 Apr 2005 - #17

[J. J. in Phila]

You bring up an interesting question. I do not know what Ray’s track record was on prosecuting pedophiles, but we do know that Ray chose not to charge Sandusky in ‘98. It’s possible that Ray had a soft spot for Peds and went light on them or didn’t charge them. We would need information on other cases to know that better. Very likely that his decision not to charge Sandusky was for some reason other than having a soft spot for Peds.

The story that I heard, from someone in the room, was that RFG agreed not to charge if Sandusky "received help with the problem." I think that this was the kind of philosophy that permeated prosecutors in PA in the late 20th Century, especially if the perpetrator was connected to a powerful institution.

 

[Ozoner]

You bring up an interesting question. I do not know what Ray’s track record was on prosecuting pedophiles, but we do know that Ray chose not to charge Sandusky in ‘98. It’s possible that Ray had a soft spot for Peds and went light on them or didn’t charge them. We would need information on other cases to know that better. Very likely that his decision not to charge Sandusky was for some reason other than having a soft spot for Peds.

The simplest explanation is that it was a different era. Pedos were not prosecuted as aggressively. People, including prosecutors, were often willing to brush things under the rug rather than confront an unseemly issue. Oftentimes the victims were embarrassed and didn't push too hard to expose crimes.

 

[Black Diamond]

Investigating possible scenarios for foul play now. I think motive for this is more of a rabbit hole than motive for him walking off. Here are the ones I think most likely.
1. The obvious. Someone Ray prosecuted in the past got revenge after having plenty of time to think about it upstate.
2. More obvious. Someone Ray was going to prosecute silenced him.
3. More likely in my mind than others seem to think. Patty Fornicola had him whacked.
4. Lifetime movie stuff. One of his ex wives had him whacked in anger or jealousy.
5. Outside chance, more Lifetime movie content. Someone connected to Patty Fornicola wanted him dead.
6. Possible. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time and met with some random act of foul play.
7. Something related to him having an affair.

Im sure there are some other good ones.

 

[Eddie99]

Black diamond,

I like your list. But - in reality what good would it do someone facing prosecution to kill a prosecutor? It's not as if your problems are going to disappear with them. The justice system will keep grinding.

That is unless the prosecutor is personally using thier office as a weapon against someone, or for political gain.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Investigating possible scenarios for foul play now. I think motive for this is more of a rabbit hole than motive for him walking off. Here are the ones I think most likely.
1. The obvious. Someone Ray prosecuted in the past got revenge after having plenty of time to think about it upstate.
2. More obvious. Someone Ray was going to prosecute silenced him.
3. More likely in my mind than others seem to think. Patty Fornicola had him whacked.
4. Lifetime movie stuff. One of his ex wives had him whacked in anger or jealousy.
5. Outside chance, more Lifetime movie content. Someone connected to Patty Fornicola wanted him dead.
6. Possible. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time and met with some random act of foul play.
7. Something related to him having an affair.

Im sure there are some other good ones.

Taking some of these down.

1. In the last 115 years in the US, less than two dozen prosecutors/ex-prosecutors have been murdered. I can think of 4-8 that were "revenge" killings, at best. In no case was the body hidden. It is very unlikely that this would be the situation and would involve RFG being exceptionally stupid to get into the situation where the body could be hidden.
2. I agree with Eddie 99. Most of the time, the prosecution will move forward, as it did with all pending cases handled by the DA's Office in 2005.
3. PEF could have said, "Get out of my house, and don't take my car," any time she wanted. If the motive was financial, why hide the body? She won't inherit until RFG is declared dead, which she would have difficulty starting, or until a body is found.
4-5. Too many details, his change in demeanor, money being sent to unknown accounts, that do not fit. That applies to 1-3 and 6 as well.
6. Lewisburg is not a high crime area. If random, why hide the body.
1-6 have all of these problems, which are nearly insurmountable.

Here is one that is possible:
7. An affair is possible. RFG could been at some clandestine romantic rendezvous with a woman. During a heated argument, in a fit passion, she kills him. He suffers a health crisis or has an accident and she does not her husband to know she was having an affair, so she hides the body.

Here is another one, but it has some problems:
8. RFG was involved in some illegal activities, e.g. he was being bribed or was blackmailing someone. The person decided to kill him rather than give him money. The problems are that killing a prosecutor means that the another prosecutor takes and the murderer would have to attempt to bribe him. If there was extortion, where is the incriminating evidence that RFG was holding over him.

 

[Black Diamond]

Black diamond,

I like your list. But - in reality what good would it do someone facing prosecution to kill a prosecutor? It's not as if your problems are going to disappear with them. The justice system will keep grinding.

That is unless the prosecutor is personally using thier office as a weapon against someone, or for political gain.

Very good observation. Another possibility is someone else within the justice system was threatened by him in some way. A dirty cop, for example.

 

[Black Diamond]

1. In the last 115 years in the US, less than two dozen prosecutors/ex-prosecutors have been murdered. I can think of 4-8 that were "revenge" killings, at best. In no case was the body hidden. It is very unlikely that this would be the situation and would involve RFG being exceptionally stupid to get into the situation where the body could be hidden.

In the last 115 years no other prosecutors from Centre County have went missing without a trace. My point is, we cannot rely on the precedent in this instance.

3. PEF could have said, "Get out of my house, and don't take my car," any time she wanted. If the motive was financial, why hide the body? She won't inherit until RFG is declared dead, which she would have difficulty starting, or until a body is found.

Her motive could have been anything. Emotion is more powerful than greed. If she was involved, my bet is for emotional reasons, not financial.

6. Lewisburg is not a high crime area. If random, why hide the body.
1-6 have all of these problems, which are nearly insurmountable.

This one is a rabbit hole. Too many weird possibilities. Once again though, I don’t consider any of them insurmountable just because of contradiction with known norms.

 

[minazoe]

I have always suspected PF ...I always feel like if you can remove some of the iffy sightings..it creates some spaces.. I don't know..could. Ray actually have gone home ? I don't know..I don't know the eye witnesses of the
mini..bother me..I don't know how this could have happened...but I just look right away at this odd relationship..and the fact he was seen around with other women..could Patty be a jealous type of woman? maybe
Ray was having an affair and the laptop was the communication tool..maybe Ray was on his way out and PF
initiated the end of Ray Gricar.

I would love to look at this some more...and what your ideas about PF are or what you think might have occurred
if she did it? mOO

 

[DeeperSecrets]

Grine became a judge in 1981, IIRC. The Sandusky incident that went to the DA's Office was in 1998. I am not sure of what Grine did in regard to Matt, but he would be relying on the county DHS for information, and possibly on Matt's testimony.

Grine court-ordered Matt into the Sandusky household in 1996. Prior to that Matt had visited and spent a lot of time with the Sanduskys but still lived with his biological mother. It was Matt's decision to live with the Sanduskys but his mother (Debra Long) protested and a parole officer also gave a report that listed concerns regarding Matt's relationship with Jerry (although nothing about abuse). A psychologist (John Fox) said it would be beneficial for Matt to live with Jerry.

Grine's never explained his ruling and repeatedly declined interviews about it. It may be he was persuaded by Fox's testimony but several foster care experts felt it was unusual to remove him from Long given there was no evidence she was abusing or otherwise negatively influencing Matt's life.

Interestingly John Fox (who had since moved to North Carolina) had his practice raided by the Feds in 2012 and was charged with illegal drug prescriptions.

 

[DeeperSecrets]

You bring up an interesting question. I do not know what Ray’s track record was on prosecuting pedophiles, but we do know that Ray chose not to charge Sandusky in ‘98. It’s possible that Ray had a soft spot for Peds and went light on them or didn’t charge them. We would need information on other cases to know that better. Very likely that his decision not to charge Sandusky was for some reason other than having a soft spot for Peds.

Unfortunately it appears Jerry wasn't the only Centre County pedophile that Gricar let off the hook.

 

[DeeperSecrets]

Taking some of these down.

1. In the last 115 years in the US, less than two dozen prosecutors/ex-prosecutors have been murdered. I can think of 4-8 that were "revenge" killings, at best. In no case was the body hidden. It is very unlikely that this would be the situation and would involve RFG being exceptionally stupid to get into the situation where the body could be hidden.
2. I agree with Eddie 99. Most of the time, the prosecution will move forward, as it did with all pending cases handled by the DA's Office in 2005.
3. PEF could have said, "Get out of my house, and don't take my car," any time she wanted. If the motive was financial, why hide the body? She won't inherit until RFG is declared dead, which she would have difficulty starting, or until a body is found.
4-5. Too many details, his change in demeanor, money being sent to unknown accounts, that do not fit. That applies to 1-3 and 6 as well.
6. Lewisburg is not a high crime area. If random, why hide the body.
1-6 have all of these problems, which are nearly insurmountable.

Here is one that is possible:
7. An affair is possible. RFG could been at some clandestine romantic rendezvous with a woman. During a heated argument, in a fit passion, she kills him. He suffers a health crisis or has an accident and she does not her husband to know she was having an affair, so she hides the body.

Here is another one, but it has some problems:
8. RFG was involved in some illegal activities, e.g. he was being bribed or was blackmailing someone. The person decided to kill him rather than give him money. The problems are that killing a prosecutor means that the another prosecutor takes and the murderer would have to attempt to bribe him. If there was extortion, where is the incriminating evidence that RFG was holding over him.

Doesn't Karen Arnold think a State Trooper whacked him? (not that there's any validity to this theory)

 

[Black Diamond]

I would love to look at this some more...and what your ideas about PF are or what you think might have occurred
if she did it? mOO

Let’s think about it a little. Is there anything besides a “passing” polygraph and her alibi being at work at the courthouse on the 15th that says she wasn’t involved? I’m no polygraph expert, but I’m reasonably sure a “passing” polygraph isn’t a get out of jail free card. So for argument’s sake let’s forget about the polygraph. Sure she was at the courthouse all day the 15th and the phone records show she was home all that evening. But there was time in between those 2. Enough time to commit a murder? I bet, especially with a co-conspirator. The mini and laptop being in Lewisburg present a problem, but could be red herrings that she thoughtfully setup somehow.

 

[Black Diamond]

Unfortunately it appears Jerry wasn't the only Centre County pedophile that Gricar let off the hook.

Can you elaborate?

 

[Eddie99]

One thing I've considered is that he was meeting with someone "off the record"

Maybe a witness, an informant, a victim, or a co-conspirator of some crime (I keep thinking crimes against children)

He takes a personal day, so he doesn't have to account for himself on a professional basis.

Then during this meeting, something happens. Maybe a change of heart:

If it was a witness, maybe they realized they could have some criminal liability.

If it was a victim, maybe they didn't hear what they wanted in terms of a solution to their problem.

I'm thinking they would have had to have been in a the perps car. They kill him right there. Then drive off to dispose of the body.

Perhaps they had knowledge and access to a good spot to bury him.

The question is - would someone go to the DA with these problems, or to the police?

I'm thinking most would just call the police to discuss something like I'm theorizing.

In my personal experience- I've reached out to the DA in my area once. ( I worked with someone who got in very serious trouble. In my opinion it was all due to this person's spouse. I told the DA, that if not for being married to this particular person, that they would have lived a normal law abiding life. Nothing like this would have happened. ** It didn't work by the way. They were given the maximum penalty.

Just speculating here.

 

[Ironhorse 332]

On this day 17 years ago Ray went missing.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Let’s think about it a little. Is there anything besides a “passing” polygraph and her alibi being at work at the courthouse on the 15th that says she wasn’t involved? I’m no polygraph expert, but I’m reasonably sure a “passing” polygraph isn’t a get out of jail free card. So for argument’s sake let’s forget about the polygraph. Sure she was at the courthouse all day the 15th and the phone records show she was home all that evening. But there was time in between those 2. Enough time to commit a murder? I bet, especially with a co-conspirator. The mini and laptop being in Lewisburg present a problem, but could be red herrings that she thoughtfully setup somehow.

First, to get to Lewisburg from Bellefonte and back again is a bit over a two hour drive, in perfect conditions, i.e. daylight driving, perfect weather, and no traffic. While not Broad Street in Philly at rush hour, there is traffic in both Bellefonte and Lewisburg on Friday afternoons. Certainly a return trip would be at night. Finally, it would likely someone having just committed a murder would want to speed and get pulled over by the police. Even without those factors, it would take at least two just to drive to Lewisburg, not even stop, and drive back to Bellefonte.

PEF does not have a 2 hour gap in her timeline for 4/15. She was at work until 4:30 PM, went home and then went to the gym (there were witnesses). At 6:58, PEF called RFG's cell from the home phone. Does the same at 7:29 PM, 8:33 PM, 8:54 PM, 9:57 PM, and 11:03 PM. PEF called the BPD at 11:36 PM.

There is not a big enough gap of time for PEF to have driven from Bellefonte to Lewisburg and back to Bellefonte. It would have also taken some time for her to have killed RFG and hidden body well enough so that it has not been found in 17 years. It is an impossibility for PEF to have killed RFG, unless the USS Enterprise was in orbit and used the transporter to beam her from Bellefonte to Lewisburg and back again.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It is time for me to update the odds. Previously, these were the odds:

Voluntary: 65%
Suicide: 14%
Foul Play: 20%
Something Else: 1%

Currently, based on new information:

Voluntary: 70%
Suicide: 4.5%
Foul Play: 25%
Something Else: 0.5%

What has dropped is suicide. There was the theory that RFG could have been doing some estate planning. The lack of any newer life insurance policies and the transfer of fund to unknown locations point against estate planning. Likewise, we still do not have a body.

Something else has included things like RFG having a heart attack and dying without the body being found. Lack of remains obviously makes this less likely as well.

Obviously, if RFG walked away, there would not be a body, and he could access money in foreign accounts. So the odds there go up.

Obviously, if RFG was foul play and the body well hidden, it might not be found. The moved money could indicate that RFG was hiding money gotten illegally, e.g. from payoffs or blackmail. That could give him a reason to go to a clandestine meeting and give the person he was seeing a reason to kill him. Though less likely, he could have been using the account to funnel money to a lover.

In other words, the account information is consistent with both walking away and some foul play scenarios.

 

[minazoe]

Is PEF's family mobbed up? Anyone know what her grandfather's relationship/record with organized crime was? mOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Doesn't Karen Arnold think a State Trooper whacked him? (not that there's any validity to this theory)

You would have to ask her.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Is PEF's family mobbed up? Anyone know what her grandfather's relationship/record with organized crime was? mOO

No, not even close. Her uncle, Gino, was former mayor of Bellefonte and county treasurer; he was actually known as "Mr. Bellefonte." A brother is an administrator in the nuclear industry. Her ex is the son of a judge in another county. Much of the family are PSU alumni, and she has a brother that is in maintenance there.