PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, former district attorney, Bellefonte, 15 Apr 2005 - #17

[Black Diamond]

1. In 2005, all calls to the DA's Office went through a central switchboard in the Courthouse. That might be why there were so few. The record does not differentiate a call coming to or from RFG's personal office, the DA's office or some other office like the Prothonotary's Office.

2. The HVAC reached RFG about some work they were looking to do.

3-4 are good questions for which I do not have an answer.

HVAC guy would then be the only other person aside from Fornicola confirmed to speak with Ray on 4/15. Unless I’m missing something else that is known. The conversation was less than 20 seconds though. Still, surely the police questioned him thoroughly, though one cannot assume the police did anything correctly in this investigation.

 

[Black Diamond]

Any idea if/when the police returned the mini to Fornicola?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Any idea if/when the police returned the mini to Fornicola?

I believe 4/17/05, after processing it. Though I don't think it is up anymore, but someone snapped a photo of it at the PSP location in Milton.

 

[Kittybunny]

First, I'm going to preface this by saying that I do not believe that Ray was involved in anything like this, but I thought I'd bring forward a case in which a person who committed suicide who was not found for some period of time. American Airlines executive Jake Cefolia. Personally, self-harm seemed like the most likely outcome to me, given that there were definite signs of turmoil and drinking and other stuff, but there was much discussion as to foul play and walkaway as options:

Found Deceased - IL - Jake Cefolia, 49, jogging, car found, SVP of United Airlines, Chicago, 6 Aug 2020

If it's TLDR, here's a nice summary:
What Happened to Jake Cefolia? How the United Exec's Disappearance Unfolded
And finally the cause:
Jake Cefolia Case: Police Reports Reveal New Clues Into United Airlines Exec's Disappearance

I don't necessarily believe that if Ray's was a suicide scenario that the river is the means. Many have shared why it is not that likely that his body was not found if he went in the river. But I do remember that @Trackergd had suggested some wooded areas nearby within walking distance of the street of shops that should be searched. But I don't remember if they actually were searched or if they are too near populated areas to conceal any remains.

Really though, the recently released information about the bank accounts and the phone logs definitely make me increase the probability of walkaway, which I had as very low before. Continue to struggle with it as a possibility though because, suicide, I can understand, but walkaway just baffles my mind for adults with means and opportunities to restart their lives.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped for emphasis only.

I don't necessarily believe that if Ray's was a suicide scenario that the river is the means. Many have shared why it is not that likely that his body was not found if he went in the river. But I do remember that @Trackergd had suggested some wooded areas nearby within walking distance of the street of shops that should be searched. But I don't remember if they actually were searched or if they are too near populated areas to conceal any remains.

Yes, there is a wooded section across the river. It is around the a quarry. Part of that is Montandon Wetland.

Part of the wetland was search in another case. The quarry is active and has expanded since 2005. The overall wooded area has shrunk since then. Some of the trees have been cut down; there are what look likes several dirt roads that were not there in 2005. A residential trailer court was greatly expanded, taking some of the woods down. There are also more people in the immediate area than there were.

There are several scenarios where RFG's body could have ended up in the river:

1. He jumped in to commit suicide.
2. He fell into the river, either because slipped/tripped, or fell in as a result of a health condition.
3. He was murdered and his body was dumped in the river.

In all of these cases, the body would have been likely recovered.

 

[Trackergd]

Ray’s phone records that were posted awhile ago are interesting. A few things that jump out.
4. He spoke on the phone twice the previous Saturday, 4/9 for a few minutes each, which appear to be long calls by Ray’s standards.. Number UNK, wonder if that means the person dialed *69 or something so the number couldn’t be identified?. I’ve never been a District Attorney, so not sure if weekend work calls are uncommon.

Respectfully snipped for space.

That call from an unknown number is news to me. For some reason it's really nagging me.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped for space.

That call from an unknown number is news to me. For some reason it's really nagging me.

I think it had been mentioned.

It was to the home phone at 11:03 AM from a "County land line Bellefonte." It lasted 13 seconds and may have been to the answering machine. At 11:12 AM, RFG was past Centre Hall and called the Courthouse.

 

[Trackergd]

Could that call have been from PF to see if RG was home?

I had never seen that call list before.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Could that call have been from PF to see if RG was home?

I had never seen that call list before.

Yes, it could have been PEF; it also could have been anyone else at the Courthouse.

I though that the phone list was posted some time ago.

 

[Black Diamond]

That call or the HVAC guy calling both could have been a quick “we’re all set for Lewisburg, be across from the Packwood house at 12:30” or something like that.

I don’t buy that Ray was definitively out of Bellefonte and past Centre Hall when he called the courthouse. Could have taken that 13 second call before he left and called the courthouse as soon as he hit the road. The police likely know the answer to that with the actual phone records and access to the landline answering machine if there was one.

 

[Black Diamond]

Respectfully snipped for space.

That call from an unknown number is news to me. For some reason it's really nagging me.

Tracker, were you talking about the calls on 4/9 or on 4/15? They’re all nagging me!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

That call or the HVAC guy calling both could have been a quick “we’re all set for Lewisburg, be across from the Packwood house at 12:30” or something like that.

I don’t buy that Ray was definitively out of Bellefonte and past Centre Hall when he called the courthouse. Could have taken that 13 second call before he left and called the courthouse as soon as he hit the road. The police likely know the answer to that with the actual phone records and access to the landline answering machine if there was one.

The 11:12 call was made from Brush Valley. It is a bit over 9 miles to Center Hall, s0 RFG would have had to going exceptionally fast to get there.

Looking at LAG's calls on Thursday, it looks like there was an answering machine. In the late 1980's, he told West to get an answering machine.

 

[Black Diamond]

The 11:12 call was made from Brush Valley. It is a bit over 9 miles to Center Hall, s0 RFG would have had to going exceptionally fast to get there.

I’m no cell tower expert, but I’m not taking it for gospel that the call was definitively made from 9 miles drive outside Bellefonte. Even if he was a few miles from that cell tower as the crow flies toward Bellefonte, that makes it 4 or 5 miles drive from Bellefonte in 9 minutes, which is reasonable. I think it’s possible he took the 11:03 call at his home phone for 13 seconds, headed outside, jumped in the mini, drove a few miles, and called the courthouse at 11:12. I’m guessing the police know that answer. We’d sure like to know who dialed his house at 11:03. Probably Fornicola or someone else at the courthouse, but maybe not.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I’m no cell tower expert, but I’m not taking it for gospel that the call was definitively made from 9 miles drive outside Bellefonte. Even if he was a few miles from that cell tower as the crow flies toward Bellefonte, that makes it 4 or 5 miles drive from Bellefonte in 9 minutes, which is reasonable. I think it’s possible he took the 11:03 call at his home phone for 13 seconds, headed outside, jumped in the mini, drove a few miles, and called the courthouse at 11:12. I’m guessing the police know that answer. We’d sure like to know who dialed his house at 11:03. Probably Fornicola or someone else at the courthouse, but maybe not.

Centre Hall is about 9.2 miles from the residence. I believe he was seen there between 11:30 and 11:35 AM.

Looking at the times, it is likely that he called PEF before coming into Centre Hall.

I have to say that I am more interested in those calls on 4/9 and 4/12.

 

[Trackergd]

4/9, 4/12/ and 4/15

Calls with UNK and the obvious deception he was giving PF makes me wonder if there was something he did not want her to know about.

I really think that BPD and PSP have information that they are withholding. Further, I suspect that anyone in an official capacity asking questions has been given some limited information and asked to leave it alone. I have hoped all they years that we could put enough information together to force their hand. I have always felt that a sitting DA going missing should have involved the FBI, heck I have been on missing child and adult cases that have involved the FBI. As I have been saying for years, something stinks about this case.

 

[Trackergd]

J.J. When did the alleged *advertiser censored* scandal involving judges and other high ranking officials occur in relation to RG going missing?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

J.J. When did the alleged *advertiser censored* scandal involving judges and other high ranking officials occur in relation to RG going missing?

About 8-9 years later.

It was not *advertiser censored* as much as memes. It was embarrassing but not illegal, though it did show the closeness of judges to some prosecutors.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

4/9, 4/12/ and 4/15

Calls with UNK and the obvious deception he was giving PF makes me wonder if there was something he did not want her to know about.

I really think that BPD and PSP have information that they are withholding. Further, I suspect that anyone in an official capacity asking questions has been given some limited information and asked to leave it alone. I have hoped all they years that we could put enough information together to force their hand. I have always felt that a sitting DA going missing should have involved the FBI, heck I have been on missing child and adult cases that have involved the FBI. As I have been saying for years, something stinks about this case.

LE has hidden information. Stuff has come out, like the computer searches and now moving money to unknown accounts. What they have hidden is evidence that points to voluntary departure.

Tony Gricar said, publicly in DC, that if RFG walked away, "the public would be rightfully outraged." I don't know if that is the case, or ever was, but I have gotten the impression that if RFG walked away, it would damage his reputation. There are some in Centre County (and beyond) that are more worried about Ray Gricar's legacy than what happen to him.

One of the great problems is if LE discovered something criminal on RFG's part. That would obviously provide yet another motive for walking away, if true. The idea of covering up anything leaves that question open. If LE released all the information, that question would not be there.

 

[minazoe]

ok, something about Ray's driving..his willingness to break speed limits his getting the attention of everyone with his driving, the risk
of driving like this..all point to a willingness to break the law a little
even a lot.

Ray was no tea sipping, uber conservative character...

for me it is impossible for me to believe that in the time he went missing to the time the search began, that his body was not found in the river... If I went and jumped in the river...even if i swam away.. there would be my body..period..floating along...maybe a
a few blocks down...but it would be there.

even weighted down! even better ...I would just be not far from the bridge.

Now I just feel like lover boy was in trouble..and hit the emergency button....took his rainy day money , never to return. mOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped for emphasis.

ok, something about Ray's driving..his willingness to break speed limits his getting the attention of everyone with his driving, the risk
of driving like this..all point to a willingness to break the law a little
even a lot.

I think that is an occupational hazard, having followed behind Bob Buehner at one point. Seriously, they know the local police and the local police know them. There is some professional courtesy involved and you get kind of use to it. I have known people in LE that do that.

for me it is impossible for me to believe that in the time he went missing to the time the search began, that his body was not found in the river... If I went and jumped in the river...even if i swam away.. there would be my body..period..floating along...maybe a
a few blocks down...but it would be there.

I agree that if this were a suicide by jumping in the river, or an accident, it is hugely likely that a body would be found. That does not rule out suicide, but it makes it less likely.

As for something criminal, it would just add one additional motive to leave voluntarily. To date, I have not seen any evidence of anything.