PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, former district attorney, Bellefonte, 15 Apr 2005 - #17

[J. J. in Phila]

That wasn't what I asked.

And I answered that question.

An attorney would easily realize that beneficiaries would have to testify at preceding to declare himself dead. Telling a beneficiary would open the beneficiary up to perjury charges when that testimony occurs. Mr. Heist, in the cited case, got his wife's life insurance after she was declared dead. He was acting in good faith, did not know that she was alive, and kept the money.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped.

Ray had no expenses and had a decent income...he died practically penniless..( compared to what he should have )

think about it...

if you were going to kill yourself and. were so concerned about your loved ones...wouldn't you be like..hey babe here's the key to the offshore if I ever kick it...

well, that sure didn't happen, right? or did it?

If it did, LAG committed fraud by not disclosing it when reporting it for tax liability. I do not believe that she committed fraud.

Further, why hid the possibility of suicide. That could generate some sympathy for RFG and the family (which was in short supply when RFG was declared dead).

 

[Ozoner]

And I answered that question.

An attorney would easily realize that beneficiaries would have to testify at preceding to declare himself dead. Telling a beneficiary would open the beneficiary up to perjury charges when that testimony occurs. Mr. Heist, in the cited case, got his wife's life insurance after she was declared dead. He was acting in good faith, did not know that she was alive, and kept the money.

No, the question that I asked was, do you know of a case where someone disappeared for the specific purpose of providing a beneficiary with money without the beneficiary being a participant in the scheme?
You still haven't answered that question because that does not appear to have been the primary motive in the Heist case.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

No, the question that I asked was, do you know of a case where someone disappeared for the specific purpose of providing a beneficiary with money without the beneficiary being a participant in the scheme?
You still haven't answered that question because that does not appear to have been the primary motive in the Heist case.

As I indicated, that might not the sole reason, but one of several reasons. In the Heist case, she apparently did know that her husband was collecting the insurance, as she had access to the Internet.

 

[Black Diamond]

First off, for someone with ten posts, you are doing pretty well.

Thanks!

Second, a while back I wrote a blog about motivations for RFG leaving. There is not necessarily one single motive; there could be several.

Great point on multiple motives. I would like to read the blog you wrote if you can point me in the right direction.

It depends. Providing financially for your loved ones can be a motivation.

I agree that it is a plausible motive when combined with one of the other motives. Standalone, there are are too many reasons why this isn’t logical from Ray’s perspective.

No woman that he knew is missing and no women from the area went missing at the same time. This is one that we can rule out.

Too many possibilities on this one to rule it out. Especially with mail order Slovenian brides available.

It is possible, but there have less than 2 dozen current/former prosecutors murdered in the last 100 years. In some of those cases, the murderer did not even know that the victim was a prosecutor. In the case of Sandusky, who would murder a prosecutor that isn't going to prosecute.

The Sandusky reference was partially out of sarcasm, though I do not dismiss a connection altogether. I was just referring to his motivation being fear of being harmed, not that it was necessarily a founded fear.

Even assuming that there was this, or some other, criminal activity, why leave. So far as we know, on 4/15/05, he was not being investigated, for anything, by LE.

Didn’t have to be LE on to him. Could have been a coworker, friend, or anyone for that matter. Or even just Ray having suspicions that he would get caught. Ray didn’t have the benefit of hindsight being 20/20 after 17 years, so he could have been motivated by something totally unfounded.

There is one additional possibility. RFG could have been hiding money off shore to protect his assets in his 2001 divorce. He was the one that filed, so he basically set the time of it. After 9/11, about 6 weeks after the final decree, the US was attacked and foreign transactions were increasingly scrutinized. He might not have been able to get the money back into the US, without causing some flags to go up. So, if correct, RFG walked to his money.

This one probably fits the best with human nature, especially when combined with a mail order bride waiting outside the foreign bank where all his money was trapped.

 

[Black Diamond]

I agree that Sandusky had nothing to do with this. Nothing makes me laugh derisively more than hearing Sandusky's named mentioned in connection with this case. It's idiotic.

I woundn’t call it idiotic. It’s definitely one of the more conspiracy theory-esqe scenarios. Coincidence that the DA in a county disappears, at the same time as one of the most influential residents of the country is raping children, at the same time as multiple people know that this influential individual is raping children, at the same time as other influential people are covering for the child rapist. Ray Gricar disappearing and the Jerry Sandusky case are probably the two most prolific news stories to ever come out of Centre County Pennsylvania. The 100% true fact that Ray investigated Sandusky in 1998 means that these two stories are intertwined. Nobody has disproved any connection, and therefore it should not be ruled out.

 

[Kittybunny]

No, the question that I asked was, do you know of a case where someone disappeared for the specific purpose of providing a beneficiary with money without the beneficiary being a participant in the scheme?
You still haven't answered that question because that does not appear to have been the primary motive in the Heist case.

I think one of the biggest challenges with trying to prove or disprove walkaway with a starting point of identifying a logical motive is that there are so few examples to draw from, because presumably people who walk away successfully are never found so you really have no idea what their motives were, what they were thinking etc. Why did they feel they just couldn't step away, as adults?

I wonder if walk away, generally speaking, is like suicide in that, unless you have experienced it or been in that state of mind it is very hard to understand and approach. I often see in cases of temporarily missing people that end up being self harm, people often say so many things like "well there was no indicators", "they did this (normal activity) before they did it" "they did that, I would've never done it that way." So it's really not a logical decision that we might understand in any way shape or form.

And the truth is, none of us really know Ray. We can speculate a lot about what he was like from interviews with his loved ones and friends, his track record, and what he seems like. But we know even those close to us can hold secrets close to their hearts that we never suspect.

All that said, I put suicide above walkaway in my own personal ranking of theories.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I woundn’t call it idiotic. It’s definitely one of the more conspiracy theory-esqe scenarios. Coincidence that the DA in a county disappears, at the same time as one of the most influential residents of the country is raping children, at the same time as multiple people know that this influential individual is raping children, at the same time as other influential people are covering for the child rapist. Ray Gricar disappearing and the Jerry Sandusky case are probably the two most prolific news stories to ever come out of Centre County Pennsylvania. The 100% true fact that Ray investigated Sandusky in 1998 means that these two stories are intertwined. Nobody has disproved any connection, and therefore it should not be ruled out.

It wasn't "at the same time." There was a nearly seven year gap between when we know that the investigation stopped by 6/1/1998. RFG disappeared on 4/15/05.

There was nothing indicating that RFG was investigating Sandusky at any point after that. The hard copy report was not in a file in the DA's Office. They found no reference to Sandusky in anything RFG had. He did not to others about the case, either.

Saying that it isn't disproved is like saying that RFG was taken up into the mothership by aliens. That is not disproved, because there is no evidence. You cannot disprove a negative.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Kittybunny, I do know this. Nobody needs hidden bank accounts for the afterlife.

 

[Black Diamond]

It wasn't "at the same time." There was a nearly seven year gap between when we know that the investigation stopped by 6/1/1998. RFG disappeared on 4/15/05.

There was nothing indicating that RFG was investigating Sandusky at any point after that. The hard copy report was not in a file in the DA's Office. They found no reference to Sandusky in anything RFG had. He did not to others about the case, either.

Saying that it isn't disproved is like saying that RFG was taken up into the mothership by aliens. That is not disproved, because there is no evidence. You cannot disprove a negative.

You didn’t read my post closely enough. I did not say that Ray was investigating Sandusky after 1998. The things I mentioned taking place at the same time were all taking place in and around 2005. I did say that because Ray had investigated Sandusky in 1998, that makes these cases intertwined. I’m not on the bandwagon that Penn State /Sandusky had anything to do with Ray going missing. However, I’m also not on the bandwagon to dismiss it entirely.

I have alien abduction at a probability of much less than 1%, but have not ruled it out.

 

[Black Diamond]

All that said, I put suicide above walkaway in my own personal ranking of theories.

Hiding your own body after killing yourself is a tough feat to pull off. It’s definitely possible, especially with a large body of water nearby. But I have trouble with it having anywhere close to the credibility of foul play or walk off because of how unlikely it is for a suicided body not to turn up.

 

[Ozoner]

You didn’t read my post closely enough. I did not say that Ray was investigating Sandusky after 1998. The things I mentioned taking place at the same time were all taking place in and around 2005. I did say that because Ray had investigated Sandusky in 1998, that makes these cases intertwined. I’m not on the bandwagon that Penn State /Sandusky had anything to do with Ray going missing. However, I’m also not on the bandwagon to dismiss it entirely.

I have alien abduction at a probability of much less than 1%, but have not ruled it out.

If you want to allow far-out theories, then the possibilities become endless. For instance, it's possible that Ray committed suicide and that his body was found by someone who chose to harvest it for his own purposes instead of turning it over to law enforcement. If you can't rule out alien abduction, then you can't rule out anything.

 

[minazoe]

JJ do you know when Ray's car was last seen on the street? like the time? Lewis.. was what an hours drive there ? correct?

I just still get a spooky feeling on how this all went down, and the computer drives me batship crazy. A DA destroying state property is a serious breach in my mind. I mean I get it..victims all kinds of stuff on there..so you say..but seems like he didn't use it that much and kept it locked in a closet...which again, makes sense as his work is highly sensitive.

so you can never normalize it and say well poor ray, he went out to l-ville to chuck his laptop and destroy his hard drive and poor guy just went missing..bad luck huh?

he went to do whaat?

JJ I'll try to find the timeline..I know its here somewhere

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is the time line so far:


The Time Line of the Witness Sightings Between 4/15/05 and 4/18/05


Bellefonte to Centre Hall

10:31 AM Mr. Gricar talked via telephone to a man regarding some home maintenance. Witness, from Joseph C Hazel HVAC, called him.


11:00-11:30 AM Mr. Gricar spotted “coming off the mountain” on Route 144, heading toward Centre Hall. Witness was a local lawyer.


11:30-35 Spotted turning, at a high rate of speed from Route 144 onto Route 192. Witness was a female “Courthouse worker.”



Brush Valley Area:

11:12 AM. Ms. Fornicola receives a brief call from Mr. Gricar; call carried by a cell tower in the Brush Valley area. Call originated about a mile northwest of Centre Hall, on Route 192

Lewisburg: 4/15/05 (Prior to 4:00 PM)

Around noon:

Jenifer Snyder, saw Mr. Gricar and the Mini across from the Packwood House Museum

Afternoon (possibly before 1:30 PM):

At least two other witnesses saw Mr. Gricar moving the car across from the Packwood House Museum.

Witness reported seeing Mr. Gricar in shop after this point, possibly talking with a Bluetooth connection.

Bellefonte: 4/15/05

3:00 PM:

Ms Fenton sees Mr. Gricar in a metallic colored car behind the Centre County Courthouse. (Judge Grine is unsure of the day). Not on tape. (Police said it did not fit the timeline)

Lewisburg: 4/15/05 (After 4:00 PM)

4:00 PM-5:00 PM:

McKnight’s witness, Donald Houser, saw Mr. Gricar, driving the Mini, driving south on Route 15 near the Country Cupboard.

Circa 5:30 PM:

At least two witnesses saw Mr. Gricar moving the Mini in the parking lot across from the Street of Shops. The Mini was seen parked there later.

At least two people, Mr. Alvey and another person saw Mr. Gricar in the Street of Shops at about the same time; at least two people saw him with the “Mystery Woman.”



Lewisburg: 4/16/05

11:00 AM to Noon: Two employees, Mr. Bennett see Mr. Gricar in Street of Shops.

6:30 PM

State Police Trooper spots the Mini Cooper in the parking lot across from the Street of Shops.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped for emphasis:

I just still get a spooky feeling on how this all went down, and the computer drives me batship crazy. A DA destroying state property is a serious breach in my mind. I mean I get it..victims all kinds of stuff on there..so you say..but seems like he didn't use it that much and kept it locked in a closet...which again, makes sense as his work is highly sensitive.

He was considering purchasing the laptop, which used and was a very old model. It would not have cost a lot and if he reported it lost or destroyed, he would just have to reimburse the county for a near worthless laptop. I do not agree that it would be an issue, especially since he used it as his home computer.

With some of things involving the AG's Office under Kane, I can easily see why RFG might not want it turned over to the IT department.

 

[minazoe]

yes, anyone can easily see why, however as a matter of law , this was seriously wrong.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

yes, anyone can easily see why, however as a matter of law , this was seriously wrong.

The thing is, he could just reimburse the county, for probably less than $200, and there is no issue. They would have to prove that it was deliberately destroyed.

Let's say RFG tossed it and went back into the office Monday and said, "I was using it in Lewisburg and dropped it by accident. There was not anything important on it. I'll reimburse Centre County for it." There would be no criminal charges, even if it was later found.

 

[Black Diamond]

If you want to allow far-out theories, then the possibilities become endless. For instance, it's possible that Ray committed suicide and that his body was found by someone who chose to harvest it for his own purposes instead of turning it over to law enforcement. If you can't rule out alien abduction, then you can't rule out anything.

When an investigation starts, the possibilities ARE endless. Then as evidence is collected, possibilities are dismissed. In this case, there is not much evidence that facilitates dismissing possibilities, so we are left with a lot of options to look at.

The less likely a scenario, the less time we spend thinking about it. The more likely a scenario, based on the information we have available, the more time we spend thinking about it. Alien abduction or falling into an inter dimensional portal are one end of this spectrum, Ray prancing off to Slovenia or being whacked by someone with a grudge are on the other end of it (in my opinion, of course.)

If we dismiss every possibility that could involve a fluke, then the circle you see here will always be just that, a circle with no end.

 

[minazoe]

I just don't trust the timeline. I just don't trust he never went home. I don't trust the eye witnesses.
I don't trust that Ray moved the car and then disappeared..what if he was just turning around in that parking lot? I don't think it was Ray because they left a cig ash in the car. I think someone who smokes moved the car, not Ray. Some major BS is being covered up.

Did Ray eat that day? PF already calling police at what 9:30?

it's so suspicious and yet they just dropped it all. mOO

 

[Black Diamond]

I just don't trust the timeline. I just don't trust he never went home. I don't trust the eye witnesses.
I don't trust that Ray moved the car and then disappeared..what if he was just turning around in that parking lot? I don't think it was Ray because they left a cig ash in the car. I think someone who smokes moved the car, not Ray. Some major BS is being covered up.

Did Ray eat that day? PF already calling police at what 9:30?

it's so suspicious and yet they just dropped it all. mOO

According to the Final Argument podcast, the cig ash never happened. Wasn’t ash in the red mini. A red herring she says. If that is true then you are right that a lot of what we “know” should not be trusted unless verified in some tangible way.