PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, former district attorney, Bellefonte, 15 Apr 2005 - #17

[J. J. in Phila]

I agree. DZ's cavalier attitude that Gricar was off on a bender or something did not help matters. Alarm bells for a sitting DA should have gone off loudly. Then later, the belief of possible suicide seemed to take over given his family history. It seems to me that foul play was never given the investigative attention of the other two possibilities.

The problem is that RFG did take off before and was gone overnight (after an argument with Emma).

This is what the police have (in the order they got it):

1. RFG can't be reached by phone and said he was driving in a remote area. (Accident)
2. Car found with phone, no damage, witness reports RFG with a woman who resembled old gf. Gf a smoker and Lewisburg is about halfway between her home and Bellefonte. Previously took off without telling anyone. (RFG is with old gf) RFG reportedly acting oddly (does not fit).
3. Gricars show up, note the similarities between Lewisburg and Roy's suicide site. (RFG is with old gf or he committed suicide).
That is where the evidence is going; DZ expected that, if it was the first, RFG would call and "shut things down." Whem Monday rolled around, the theory was abandoned.
I don't believe that voluntary departure was deeply investigated.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Is it possible what RG had on the computer drive was related to Grine and/or Fox and forcing Matt (and possibly others) into Sandusky's clutches?

Doubtful. At that point, when Matt was placed, nothing was digital.

 

[Trackergd]

Tracker, good to see you post.

Temp 4/16 ranged from 32-66 and humidity from 69% to 19% overnight.

Temp 4/17 until 2:00 PM 44-74 and humidity form 51% to 13% overnight. When the dog was there, humidity would be less than 20% and temp above 70.

Both of these were from the Williamsburg Airport, so the temps might be 1-2 degrees higher.

According to news reports, the dog was a bloodhound.

Ideal dog with ideal conditions. If the scent trail ended abruptly in the parking lot, RG exited the area in a vehicle, either by his own free will or by force. To me this would 90% preclude throwing himself into the river or walking off into the woods and committing suicide.

Glad to see others have put boots on the ground in Lewisburg. It gives you a new perspective as you can experience the location, traffic, interior of the SOS, etc. I think that is important to understanding the environmental influences on RG that day.

Having sat on the exact bench RG was seen "fiddling with something" which I am convinced was the laptop (removing the hard drive). I chose to buy into that particular sighting. The river was at the same height the day I was there as on the day RG was there. I might be able to accept throwing the hard drive by hand to where it was finally located, but not the laptop. To me, RG removed the hard drive and disposed of it in a different location than the laptop itself, not realizing that they would both end up in the same proximity. I think the laptop was tossed from the center of the bridge with the expectation that it would travel down stream a good ways, which it did not.

Crossing the rail bridge makes little sense as it would have been dangerous and walking across the car bridge would not have involved much risk and little chance of recognition, and what would have been the advantage of exiting from the far side of the river over exiting from the parking lot at the SOS? Not much that I can tell.

 

[Trackergd]

Respectfully snipped

3. Gricars show up, note the similarities between Lewisburg and Roy's suicide site. (RFG is with old gf or he committed suicide).
That is where the evidence is going; DZ expected that, if it was the first, RFG would call and "shut things down." Whem Monday rolled around, the theory was abandoned.
I don't believe that voluntary departure was deeply investigated.

Were any of the extended family members give a polygraph? Effective way to divert LE's attention from other scenario's to suicide, not that I think LE totally bought into that.

Currently being administrator for a family member estate has given me a new perspective on the "small estate" information. It totally does not make sense. There is a lot of money that went somewhere else.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Were any of the extended family members give a polygraph? Effective way to divert LE's attention from other scenario's to suicide, not that I think LE totally bought into that.

Currently being administrator for a family member estate has given me a new perspective on the "small estate" information. It totally does not make sense. There is a lot of money that went somewhere else.

The only polygraphs were for PEF and LAG.

I do not blame the Gricar brothers for reacting the way they did. While the genetics were not known at the time, it was known that suicide "ran in families," and they had gone through it with their father. TG said that, while driving to Lewisburg, they got the call that the car was parked just off Water Street. They both said in unison, "Suicide."

I give the odds on suicide as being 4.5% at this point.

RFG, based on his income and lifestyle, should have had more assets. We know that he had a possibly foreign bank account and that he was not doing estate planning. That points away from suicide.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Having sat on the exact bench RG was seen "fiddling with something" which I am convinced was the laptop (removing the hard drive). I chose to buy into that particular sighting. The river was at the same height the day I was there as on the day RG was there. I might be able to accept throwing the hard drive by hand to where it was finally located, but not the laptop. To me, RG removed the hard drive and disposed of it in a different location than the laptop itself, not realizing that they would both end up in the same proximity. I think the laptop was tossed from the center of the bridge with the expectation that it would travel down stream a good ways, which it did not.

Snipped for emphasis only.
The report I have is that RFG was fiddling with the laptop in the Mini. He appeared to holding something smallish in the park.

I think the laptop was tossed from the bridge, but not for that reason.

1. Whomever tossed it did not want people looking for the hard drive. Under any of the scenarios, the laptop, sans drive, would have remained. Anybody would have to deal with a laptop with the drive deliberately removed.

2. Somebody did not to be found with the laptop in his/her possession and needed to get rid of it quickly. He/she dropped it in the general area and drove off.

The evidence that RFG wanted to get rid of the drive and it is highly likely that he tossed it. However, that may not have been tied to his disappearance. Assume that RFG had wanted to destroy the drive and report to the county that he had accidentally dropped it in the Susquehanna. He could not have the computer, minus drive, sitting around.

 

[Black Diamond]

Ideal dog with ideal conditions. If the scent trail ended abruptly in the parking lot, RG exited the area in a vehicle, either by his own free will or by force. To me this would 90% preclude throwing himself into the river or walking off into the woods and committing suicide.

Glad to see others have put boots on the ground in Lewisburg. It gives you a new perspective as you can experience the location, traffic, interior of the SOS, etc. I think that is important to understanding the environmental influences on RG that day.

Having sat on the exact bench RG was seen "fiddling with something" which I am convinced was the laptop (removing the hard drive). I chose to buy into that particular sighting. The river was at the same height the day I was there as on the day RG was there. I might be able to accept throwing the hard drive by hand to where it was finally located, but not the laptop. To me, RG removed the hard drive and disposed of it in a different location than the laptop itself, not realizing that they would both end up in the same proximity. I think the laptop was tossed from the center of the bridge with the expectation that it would travel down stream a good ways, which it did not.

Crossing the rail bridge makes little sense as it would have been dangerous and walking across the car bridge would not have involved much risk and little chance of recognition, and what would have been the advantage of exiting from the far side of the river over exiting from the parking lot at the SOS? Not much that I can tell.

Going there in person definitely gave me the chills, knowing I was in the very places Ray was that day.

I haven’t bought into the bloodhound information being reliable, mainly because we know from credible eyewitnesses that Ray was outside his car in the park, and also had to have walked into one of the entrances to the SoS. Yet the bloodhound either wasnt taken out of the parking lot to check those locations or didn’t follow the trail at those locations.

Trackergd, do you have an opinion on it?

 

[Betty P]

Thinking about the bloodhound they brought in to investigate the SOS parking lot. They say Ray’s scent never left the lot. Well he was seen in the SOS by multiple witnesses. He got in there somehow. Even if he didn’t leave the lot when he parked the car the last time. He was spotted across from Packwood House and in SOS and they didn’t try or were unsuccessful getting the dog to follow any scent where he was spotted. I have also read somewhere that the time elapsed to when the dog was brought in was much too long to rely on it. Just sharing my thoughts and my opinion that the whole bloodhound thing is bad information and should be eliminated from consideration.

It could mean that Ray’s scent never left that area back there around the lot and SOS. Does anyone have a more detailed description of the report on the tracker dog?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It could mean that Ray’s scent never left that area back there around the lot and SOS. Does anyone have a more detailed description of the report on the tracker dog?

The report in the press was the bloodhound tracked the scent from where the car was to the street, and then circled. The handler said that could indicate RFG got into a vehicle.

 

[Trackergd]

Going there in person definitely gave me the chills, knowing I was in the very places Ray was that day.

I haven’t bought into the bloodhound information being reliable, mainly because we know from credible eyewitnesses that Ray was outside his car in the park, and also had to have walked into one of the entrances to the SoS. Yet the bloodhound either wasnt taken out of the parking lot to check those locations or didn’t follow the trail at those locations.

Trackergd, do you have an opinion on it?

The entrance to the SOS is problematic as the quantity of the other scents and scents from the SOS itself, coupled with the experience of the dog and and handler could have been a factor. I would have advised the handler to take the dog outside, clean out it's nose (they do this in a bucket of water), go back inside and re-imprint the dog from the scent article. Then let the dog walk around inside the SOS to see if it alerted on any specific area.

 

[Trackergd]

The report in the press was the bloodhound tracked the scent from where the car was to the street, and then circled. The handler said that could indicate RFG got into a vehicle.

This is the most probable scenario. The issue is that the dog can alert that the subject was in that spot, but cannot share with the handler if anyone else was in that spot as well. If I had a talking bloodhound, I would be richer than Elon Musk.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

This is the most probable scenario. The issue is that the dog can alert that the subject was in that spot, but cannot share with the handler if anyone else was in that spot as well. If I had a talking bloodhound, I would be richer than Elon Musk.

I thought you comment was quite funny.

The question is that, if he got into a vehicle, was it one of a helper, or a murderer?

 

[Betty P]

The report in the press was the bloodhound tracked the scent from where the car was to the street, and then circled. The handler said that could indicate RFG got into a vehicle.

According to witness reports, he was walking around that area near the museum at the end of the street. It appeared he was waiting for someone, they said. JMO, he was waiting for someone he planned to meet with, but it didn't turn out as expected.

I still believe if he "walked away", he would have been found by now. In these times, it's very difficult for someone to disappear that way without leaving any trace of their ongoing movements, activities, etc.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

According to witness reports, he was walking around that area near the museum at the end of the street. It appeared he was waiting for someone, they said. JMO, he was waiting for someone he planned to meet with, but it didn't turn out as expected.

I still believe if he "walked away", he would have been found by now. In these times, it's very difficult for someone to disappear that way without leaving any trace of their ongoing movements, activities, etc.

I didn't know you were interested in the case. As I've seen elsewhere, we're on the same page. I rarely visit the Gricar threads because the "walkaway" scenario is absurd in my view and I can't waste my time wrangling about that when their is zero evidence that Gricar is alive or committed suicide. Some people don't want this case to be solved--my opinion only.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I didn't know you were interested in the case. As I've seen elsewhere, we're on the same page. I rarely visit the Gricar threads because the "walkaway" scenario is absurd in my view and I can't waste my time wrangling about that when their is zero evidence that Gricar is alive or committed suicide. Some people don't want this case to be solved--my opinion only.

 

[Betty P]

I didn't know you were interested in the case. As I've seen elsewhere, we're on the same page. I rarely visit the Gricar threads because the "walkaway" scenario is absurd in my view and I can't waste my time wrangling about that when their is zero evidence that Gricar is alive or committed suicide. Some people don't want this case to be solved--my opinion only.

I visit now and again. JJ has done a great job. I recently listened to the podcast mentioned above about the case and went back to re-familiarize myself with it. It always seemed such a mystery, but all of a sudden, the part about the Sandusky investigation clicked. That may not be the reason this happened, but I'm leaning towards someone linked to a case he was or had prosecuted lured him there. The interviews with the women witnesses who worked at the museum provided more detail about his meanderings around there that day.

JMO, he was meeting with someone that day and he needed the laptop to show them something or share the hard drive. IDK exactly. It seemed important that his girlfriend/partner said he never took his laptop with him when he was on personal travel, trips, etc. The only time he'd done that was on a vacation back east.

The way local LE resisted help with the case and the way the replacement prosecutor and others rebuffed other prosecutors help via a task force was also odd.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

According to witness reports, he was walking around that area near the museum at the end of the street. It appeared he was waiting for someone, they said. JMO, he was waiting for someone he planned to meet with, but it didn't turn out as expected.

I still believe if he "walked away", he would have been found by now. In these times, it's very difficult for someone to disappear that way without leaving any trace of their ongoing movements, activities, etc.

The only guy that said that RFG looked like was waiting for someone was Bennett, who saw RFG on the morning of 4/16. Other people saw him, but didn't characterize him as looking like he was waiting for someone.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Tracker's post got me thinking about something we might be able to rule out.

Suppose that someone in the parking lot wanted to grab RFG and force him into a car. Why park the car 20 yards away when you could just pull up.

Assume that RFG is about to get into the Mini and someone comes up behind him. The person, or persons, stick a gun in his back ant tells him,"Come with me." The lot is across the street of a business with lot of foot traffic; the road is fairly heavily traveled. Houses look out on the parking lot.

Further, why wouldn't RFG make a lot of noise and/or resist, especially if he was being herded into a vehicle?

I can see several murder scenarios where RFG would exit the Mini, after locking it, and walk 20 yards to another vehicle and get in, voluntarily. I cannot see a scenario where he would be forced and he would go quietly.

 

[Betty P]

The only guy that said that RFG looked like was waiting for someone was Bennett, who saw RFG on the morning of 4/16. Other people saw him, but didn't characterize him as looking like he was waiting for someone.

Yes, true. I'd say their descriptions of his actions - walking around, pacing back and forth by the park, possibly talking to someone using bluetooth headphones, etc. - gave me the impression he was waiting to meet someone.

 

[Trackergd]

I thought you comment was quite funny.

The question is that, if he got into a vehicle, was it one of a helper, or a murderer?

If RG got into another vehicle on his own or by force, that would lower the odds on the suicide scenario. It raises them on abduction. Disposing of the laptop and hard drive in the river pretty much rules out that what was on the hard drive was mundane and unimportant. I'm still hung up on the cigarette ash and smell in the mini. Wondering if it could have been an unknown actor searching the mini looking for the computer?