PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, former district attorney, Bellefonte, 15 Apr 2005 - #17

[J. J. in Phila]

when i think about dog tracking. I think about a sweating fugitive, on a trail with no other humans- and then I think of a freshly washed man in clean clothing with socks, shoes, aftershave?, on pavement.... so I read this:

How Long Can a Dog Follow a Scent: Understanding Your Dogs Nose

It is well known that dogs can be great at tracking down a scent. Their nose is their biggest weapon and they constantly use it. It seems like a dog can sniff around forever, but how long can a dog follow a scent.

pathwaypooch.com

not sure what they teach official K9 handlers....and I do not know if it rained around 4/15-16/05?

We do have someone with experience here, TrackerGD. It had not rained in Lewisburg between 4/14 and 4/17. at least.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The closest that I could get data for was Williamsport Airport. The last rain 4/3 and the next rain was 4/22.

The lot used pea sized gravel over dirt, surrounded by paved roads and paved sidewalks. The parking lot was a less smooth surface; that could have had a bearing on why the dog detected the scent in the lot but not beyond it.

Further, one site notes: "Make sure all officers turn off their vehicles and keep exhaust fumes clear of the area to be searched by the bloodhounds as exhaust fumes can destroy scent." Guidelines —
It was a parking lot with cars coming in and out, surrounded by streets with traffic.

 

[Black Diamond]

I visited Lewisburg a few days ago. Observations:
-walking across the bridge and looking at the river, it’s super shallow. Probably 3 feet or shallower the whole way across when I visited.
-you can walk right up to the railroad trestle, and someone wanting to walk out on it wouldn’t have to go to much trouble to bypass the fence, but would need to walk on a beam a ways before getting on railroad ties. Someone wanting to pitch a laptop, pitch a hard drive, get to the other side, or commit could get out on the trestle. Obviously things probably looked better in ‘05 than they do now.
- inside the Street of Shops there are some security cameras. I wondered if there were any in there back in ‘05.
- still 3 parking spots across from packwood house. Only a few minutes walk to the river, to the trestle, to the market street bridge, and to Street of Shops from there.
- the little parking lot where the Mini Cooper was found is a good out of the way location to park a car if you wouldn’t want it noticed awhile. But even better would have been the dirt lot behind Street of Shops which isn’t visible from any public street.
- from Centre hall to Lewisburg on 192 is a long haul through lots of farms and woods. It seems like a really long ride even driving fast

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I visited Lewisburg a few days ago. Observations:
-walking across the bridge and looking at the river, it’s super shallow. Probably 3 feet or shallower the whole way across when I visited.
-you can walk right up to the railroad trestle, and someone wanting to walk out on it wouldn’t have to go to much trouble to bypass the fence, but would need to walk on a beam a ways before getting on railroad ties. Someone wanting to pitch a laptop, pitch a hard drive, get to the other side, or commit could get out on the trestle. Obviously things probably looked better in ‘05 than they do now.
- inside the Street of Shops there are some security cameras. I wondered if there were any in there back in ‘05.
- still 3 parking spots across from packwood house. Only a few minutes walk to the river, to the trestle, to the market street bridge, and to Street of Shops from there.
- the little parking lot where the Mini Cooper was found is a good out of the way location to park a car if you wouldn’t want it noticed awhile. But even better would have been the dirt lot behind Street of Shops which isn’t visible from any public street.
- from Centre hall to Lewisburg on 192 is a long haul through lots of farms and woods. It seems like a really long ride even driving fast

The level of the river fluctuates. It was higher when I was there, which was lower that 4/16/05.

The railroad bridge burnt in the 2010's.

There were no security cameras in the SoS in 2005 (or in 2008, when I was there).

There was no parking area behind the SoS in 2005.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The level of the river fluctuates. It was higher when I was there, which was lower that 4/16/05.

The railroad bridge burnt in the 2010's.

There were no security cameras in the SoS in 2005 (or in 2008, when I was there).

There was no parking area behind the SoS in 2005.

I just want to be clear on the railroad bridge. It had components, e.g. ties and possibly walkways, that were wooden. That is what burnt. The metal did not and is still there. It would have been easier to cross it on foot in 2005.

At least on the Lewisburg end, there was a barrier at least 4-6 feet high to prevent traffic from crossing it. It would have been possible for someone on foot to crawl over top of it. I think the barrier was made up of dirt and railroad ties.

 

[Black Diamond]

Re Final Argument podcast, she must be running out of or totally be out of things to talk about. The podcasts so far were good, but waiting 6 months between episodes really makes it seem like she doesn’t have much left on her agenda. Maybe soon she’ll wrap it up saying Ray was taken out by the mob, to cover up the second mile, a conspiracy involving Corbett, Smith, Petito, and Corman.

A theory I have is that she’s waiting for one of those “second mile mothers” to hear her podcast and contact her with their story about meeting with Ray about Sandusky. Without one of those her theory will run into a dead end. Never know, maybe she has one or more of them lined up for future podcasts and will make earth shattering revelations. I wouldn’t put money on it though.

 

[Betty P]

Re Final Argument podcast, she must be running out of or totally be out of things to talk about. The podcasts so far were good, but waiting 6 months between episodes really makes it seem like she doesn’t have much left on her agenda. Maybe soon she’ll wrap it up saying Ray was taken out by the mob, to cover up the second mile, a conspiracy involving Corbett, Smith, Petito, and Corman.

A theory I have is that she’s waiting for one of those “second mile mothers” to hear her podcast and contact her with their story about meeting with Ray about Sandusky. Without one of those her theory will run into a dead end. Never know, maybe she has one or more of them lined up for future podcasts and will make earth shattering revelations. I wouldn’t put money on it though.

It's sad to think it's possible there's a second mile mom out there with a story of abuse, but too afraid to come forward. I'm not a big sports fan and its incredible to me that a perv coach on a football team could be so vigorously defended by the locals. Though I know its fact, its hard to believe that people are forced to live in fear of retribution because of a sport? Crazy.

 

[Ozoner]

Re Final Argument podcast, she must be running out of or totally be out of things to talk about. The podcasts so far were good, but waiting 6 months between episodes really makes it seem like she doesn’t have much left on her agenda. Maybe soon she’ll wrap it up saying Ray was taken out by the mob, to cover up the second mile, a conspiracy involving Corbett, Smith, Petito, and Corman.

A theory I have is that she’s waiting for one of those “second mile mothers” to hear her podcast and contact her with their story about meeting with Ray about Sandusky. Without one of those her theory will run into a dead end. Never know, maybe she has one or more of them lined up for future podcasts and will make earth shattering revelations. I wouldn’t put money on it though.

It's sad to think it's possible there's a second mile mom out there with a story of abuse, but too afraid to come forward. I'm not a big sports fan and its incredible to me that a perv coach on a football team could be so vigorously defended by the locals. Though I know its fact, its hard to believe that people are forced to live in fear of retribution because of a sport? Crazy.

I don't put any stock in that podcast. The Sandusky talk is much ado about nothing.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It's sad to think it's possible there's a second mile mom out there with a story of abuse, but too afraid to come forward. I'm not a big sports fan and its incredible to me that a perv coach on a football team could be so vigorously defended by the locals. Though I know its fact, its hard to believe that people are forced to live in fear of retribution because of a sport? Crazy.

After Sandusky and the PSU 3 were convicted/plead guilty, there should be no fear. Heck, McQueary is crying all the way to the bank.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I don't put any stock in that podcast. The Sandusky talk is much ado about nothing.

I will say this, RK got access to the documentation.

 

[Eddie99]

I didn't listen to the podcast. So I cant speak directly to that, but I sound like it is linking RGs disappearance to Penn State.

All I can say is that nothing would shock me about that. What happened there is utterly evil. And people not only ignored it, they were rewarded for doing so.

Who knows what else was going on with these animals.

 

[Black Diamond]

I didn't listen to the podcast. So I cant speak directly to that, but I sound like it is linking RGs disappearance to Penn State.

All I can say is that nothing would shock me about that. What happened there is utterly evil. And people not only ignored it, they were rewarded for doing so.

Who knows what else was going on with these animals.

If you’re interested in the disappearance the podcast is definitely worth the time to listen. She has provided a thorough description of the publicly known information and also some new information. That said, she hasn’t provided anything convincing enough yet to support her theory. Maybe future episodes will.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I didn't listen to the podcast. So I cant speak directly to that, but I sound like it is linking RGs disappearance to Penn State.

All I can say is that nothing would shock me about that. What happened there is utterly evil. And people not only ignored it, they were rewarded for doing so.

Who knows what else was going on with these animals.

Based on the information we have, it would be more likely RFG was paid off to keep silent about Sandusky and was either killed because he wanted too much money or left with his ill gotten gains. After 17 years, there has yet to be any evidence that RFG was ever paid off or tried to shake anyone down.

Across the Commonwealth of PA, for decades, prosecutor swept CSA cases under the rug if it involved a major institution. In many counties that was the Catholic Church; in Centre County, it was Penn State. Abusers in those cases didn't have to pay anyone off.

 

[OddOneOut]

Based on the information we have, it would be more likely RFG was paid off to keep silent about Sandusky and was either killed because he wanted too much money or left with his ill gotten gains. After 17 years, there has yet to be any evidence that RFG was ever paid off or tried to shake anyone down.

Across the Commonwealth of PA, for decades, prosecutor swept CSA cases under the rug if it involved a major institution. In many counties that was the Catholic Church; in Centre County, it was Penn State. Abusers in those cases didn't have to pay anyone off.

Another possibility is that he wouldn't/couldn't be paid off.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Another possibility is that he wouldn't/couldn't be paid off.

That becomes unlikely, for several reasons:

1. There is the untraceable bank account.

2. RFG had no Sandusky file.

 

[Trackergd]

We do have someone with experience here, TrackerGD. It had not rained in Lewisburg between 4/14 and 4/17. at least.

Weather conditions like temperature, humidity as well as environmental conditions such as chemicals, auto exhaust, etc. all can influence a dog's ability to follow a scent trail. Also the training level and breed of dog needs to be taken into account. A Police bite dog is useless as a tracking dog in most cases. A bloodhound is a ground scent dog. Most other breeds are air scent dogs. A ground scent dog vacuums up dead skin cells from the surface and compares them to the scent he/she was imprinted with by the handler from a scent article from the victim. An air scent dog picks up human scents carried on the air and must work from downwind of the subject upwind to them. I don't think an air scent dog would have been useful in an initial search of the SOS area, possibly later in wooded areas. The ground scent dog would have been ideal if the temperature was moderate, humidity was average and wind was low. Rain will impact the scent trail for a ground scent dog, however as J.J, noted, this was not a factor. Conditions should have been ideal for a bloodhound or skilled ground scent dog and handler. When a scent trail ends abruptly along a road, driveway or parking lot, it is a high probability that the subject was transported out of the area in a vehicle.

 

[Trackergd]

Complete failure of an investigation by law enforcement.

On many levels. FBI was not called in that I am aware of. For a sitting DA? Why not? The investigation smacks of a half hearted attempt for the sake of the media and part of a bigger coverup.

 

[Trackergd]

Grine court-ordered Matt into the Sandusky household in 1996. Prior to that Matt had visited and spent a lot of time with the Sanduskys but still lived with his biological mother. It was Matt's decision to live with the Sanduskys but his mother (Debra Long) protested and a parole officer also gave a report that listed concerns regarding Matt's relationship with Jerry (although nothing about abuse). A psychologist (John Fox) said it would be beneficial for Matt to live with Jerry.

Grine's never explained his ruling and repeatedly declined interviews about it. It may be he was persuaded by Fox's testimony but several foster care experts felt it was unusual to remove him from Long given there was no evidence she was abusing or otherwise negatively influencing Matt's life.

Interestingly John Fox (who had since moved to North Carolina) had his practice raided by the Feds in 2012 and was charged with illegal drug prescriptions.

Is it possible what RG had on the computer drive was related to Grine and/or Fox and forcing Matt (and possibly others) into Sandusky's clutches?

 

[Kittybunny]

On many levels. FBI was not called in that I am aware of. For a sitting DA? Why not? The investigation smacks of a half hearted attempt for the sake of the media and part of a bigger coverup.

I agree. DZ's cavalier attitude that Gricar was off on a bender or something did not help matters. Alarm bells for a sitting DA should have gone off loudly. Then later, the belief of possible suicide seemed to take over given his family history. It seems to me that foul play was never given the investigative attention of the other two possibilities.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Tracker, good to see you post.

Temp 4/16 ranged from 32-66 and humidity from 69% to 19% overnight.

Temp 4/17 until 2:00 PM 44-74 and humidity form 51% to 13% overnight. When the dog was there, humidity would be less than 20% and temp above 70.

Both of these were from the Williamsburg Airport, so the temps might be 1-2 degrees higher.

According to news reports, the dog was a bloodhound.