Identified! PA - White Haven, 'Beth Doe' & Unborn Baby 169UFPA, 16-22, Dec'76 - #1 - Evelyn Colon

[Cupcakeslayer]

How often are the hair/eye color wrong on the doe? I noticed that Jan has blue eyes and our doe has brown. I know they often get stuff wrong though.

My opinion of who it could be.

NANCY LYNN KIRKPATRICK
http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/PubCaseSearchServlet?act=viewPoster&caseNum=602231&orgPrefix=NCMC&searchLang=en_US
I'm using her missing kid poster since the photos are larger, something about the teeth draw me to her. and the way the bridge of er nose/ eyes are set.


i saw a few others but somehow always talked myself out of it.

 

[Billylee]

Just caught site of this thread. First thing that came to mind was how homes for unwed mothers used to be fairly abusive/steal the baby from its mother after birth( to make money off adopting it out) Wonder if they were still around in mid 70's and if something when sour there?
i think Betty Redmond looks allot like her but find it odd theres no talk of her being preg. on the poster

The newspaper on beth doe was " six sections of the New York Sunday News dated September 26, 1976. " according to the poster. Same day Betty when missing.

bbm

Authorities say that the JD was "Estimated time of death: 7 to 24 hours prior to being found" and she was found Dec. 20 1976. Does anyone know if someone were killed and dismembered put in suitcases and put in a deep freezer (say, in September as above) and then disposed of as in this case in December, would they be able to have an accurate date/time of death?

 

[CarlK90245]

bbm

Authorities say that the JD was "Estimated time of death: 7 to 24 hours prior to being found" and she was found Dec. 20 1976. Does anyone know if someone were killed and dismembered put in suitcases and put in a deep freezer (say, in September as above) and then disposed of as in this case in December, would they be able to have an accurate date/time of death?

Water expands when frozen. When a body is frozen, ice crystals form within the tissues, and burst the cell membranes, much like what happens to plastic bottle of water when placed in a freezer.

This would be easily detectable by the Medical Examiner.

 

[hmg]

Okay, I made a list of nearly every missing woman listed on Doe or Charley who was born between 1945 and 1962 and had brown or dark hair and brown or questionably colored eyes (hazel can appear brown, some pics looked like they possibly had brown eyes) and went missing between 1970-1976. I ruled out people who were clearly victims of a known killer (eg-- Bundy's victims), people with extensive dental work (eg- Amy Billig), and people who were much taller or heavier than Beth (people who were over 5'8", 180 pounds).

Clearly, this is intended to be a very general list of possibilities. I still didn't see anyone who fit Beth enough to make a match. There's quite a few though who struck me as people who probably weren't her but none the less need to be ruled out if they haven't been already. Sadly, there's so many girls who ran away during this time period or were abducted by motorcycle gangs or abusive boyfriends who were never reported missing. My feeling is that because of that Beth isn't on this list, but none the less it is worth investigating.

 

[Billylee]

I was just looking at Valarie Cuccia, it does say she has a scar on her left calf. But the height would be off, but that's listed as "approx" height" in Pennsylvania flyer. Does she look similar to the recon to you? Cuccia would be "Mediterranean" heritage, I think.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/138dfny.html

 

[hmg]

I was just looking at Valarie Cuccia, it does say she has a scar on her left calf. But the height would be off, but that's listed as "approx" height" in Pennsylvania flyer. Does she look similar to the recon to you? Cuccia would be "Mediterranean" heritage, I think.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/138dfny.html

Despite putting earlier on the thread that I didn't think it was Cuccia (I think I was thinking of Pena) I think she should be checked out. The scar is there, she has the right "look", and I think 5'6" is a negligible height difference.

 

[Billylee]

I am curious as to why it says Valerie may have been taken to MA?
Did someone spot her there? There doesn't seem to be much out there about her case. I can't find a news article for when she disappeared, which makes me wonder if LE at first thought it was voluntary. It says Valerie's hair is black, but in this picture it looks dark brown to me. So I don't know, but doing a side by side (I think) here.

 

[mtrooper]

I have to think that Betty Redmond is a good shot. I would be interested in knowing how they ruled her out. How ironic...Her car was found at the airport, but DOEs body was in suit cases. She had also taken her .22, and DOE was shot in the neck. I also think the news paper date is more than eerie.

 

[carbuff]

You could, but you'd probably be going out of your way (which the perp could have a reason to do) and you have to remember how many roads exist today which were not around in 1976.

Montreal: Back in 1976, I-87 existed but many of the routes to get from I-87 to I-80 did not. Today you'd probably use I-87 to I-88 to I-81 but that wasnt possible then. I-87 to I-287 was partially completed. That leaves the recently constructed I-87 to I-84 to I-380 to I-80 route possible.

Sherbrooke: I-91 to I-84 would be the likely access route. Difficult at the time due to the two not being connected so unless the perp knew the area why would he bother? The section of I-93 you're talking about would have been differently aligned at the time, the most northern part wasn't even built until 1983.

I-95 probably represents the best possibility but out of all the places in Canada she could be from its probably the least probable considering the ride with traffic would be quite long.

I'm not meaning to be difficult, just pointing out the facts. She could be from Canada, but I think it's less likely.

It's a good point about the roads not being in quite the same place. But northern NH and parts of Maine are heavily French-Canadian and there has always been a lot of traffic between the two areas. Lots of truck traffic.

Route 3 ran more or less where I-93 (just called "the four-lane" in northern NH) was built. Still does run parallel in many places. There was also a road along the Connecticut River where I-89 and I-91 were built, though I don't remember the numbers.

I certainly agree it's most likely she's from the NYC area (and for some reason I'm thinking Long Island/CT rather than NJ). But it doesn't seem to me like we should totally rule out those other areas.

 

[hmg]

I totally agree carbuff. Looking back at my last few posts I realize I sound argumentative and like I only feel she could be from NYC. I didn't mean for that to be the case.

My personal feeling on this is that Beth was possibly a run away who could have been from anywhere originally (which is why included cases back to 1970), I just feel like at some point she (or her killer) probably spent time in NYC. Looking at so many of these cases involving young girls it appears that perhaps they initially ran away but then became involved in a crime. If that's the case, Beth could be from anywhere or could have been a missing persons case from long before 1976.

 

[carbuff]

I totally agree carbuff. Looking back at my last few posts I realize I sound argumentative and like I only feel she could be from NYC. I didn't mean for that to be the case.

My personal feeling on this is that Beth was possibly a run away who could have been from anywhere originally (which is why included cases back to 1970), I just feel like at some point she (or her killer) probably spent time in NYC. Looking at so many of these cases involving young girls it appears that perhaps they initially ran away but then became involved in a crime. If that's the case, Beth could be from anywhere or could have been a missing persons case from long before 1976.

No problem -- it's good to rehash things, and I have a thick skin.

I agree about the runaway part, and your thinking makes sense to me. I also agree they probably spent time in or near NYC. But I'm more inclined to think she ran away (or was thrown out) because of her pregnancy. The reconstruction reminds me so much of the cute little Italian girls from Long Island I used to have in my freshman English class. Innocent, headstrong, and terribly afraid of their fathers -- one girl was a senior and still hadn't told her father she had flunked out of premed and was majoring in English instead.

 

[reasypeasy]

I think it is possible the perp is not the father, but someone whose relationship with the father was threatened by the impending birth. A wife, a lover, an overly involved and obsessive parent. I think cutting off a woman's ears and nose indicates a bitter resentment of her attractiveness. I think removing a well developed fetus from a corpse indicates curiostity about that fetus's looks and gender.

I think the shot to the neck could be, like the suitcases and attempt to put the body in the river, an attempt to throw off investigators. Beth gets strangled in a fit of rage, the murderer then as to work out what to do, and decides that using a gun he or she has access to but does not own (or owns but nobody knows about) will help throw police off the trail.

I think it is not impossible the perpetrator was a physically strong woman who possibly had worked somewhere like a meatworks at some stage of her life.

It is possible Beth is not being sought for simply because Beth was never as important to the father of her baby as the perpetrator assumed.

Just another perspective. You don't want to narrow things down too much.

 

[carbuff]

I think it is possible the perp is not the father, but someone whose relationship with the father was threatened by the impending birth. A wife, a lover, an overly involved and obsessive parent. I think cutting off a woman's ears and nose indicates a bitter resentment of her attractiveness. I think removing a well developed fetus from a corpse indicates curiostity about that fetus's looks and gender.

I think the shot to the neck could be, like the suitcases and attempt to put the body in the river, an attempt to throw off investigators. Beth gets strangled in a fit of rage, the murderer then as to work out what to do, and decides that using a gun he or she has access to but does not own (or owns but nobody knows about) will help throw police off the trail.

I think it is not impossible the perpetrator was a physically strong woman who possibly had worked somewhere like a meatworks at some stage of her life.

It is possible Beth is not being sought for simply because Beth was never as important to the father of her baby as the perpetrator assumed.

Just another perspective. You don't want to narrow things down too much.

Well, wait a minute here. You don't suppose somebody grabbed her because they wanted the baby? Shot her, tried to remove the baby, baby didn't survive, then disposed of the whole mess?

 

[reasypeasy]

Well, wait a minute here. You don't suppose somebody grabbed her because they wanted the baby? Shot her, tried to remove the baby, baby didn't survive, then disposed of the whole mess?

Possible, but I think the chopped off nose and ears indicate otherwise, unless the person stealing the baby also had an intense personal hatred of Beth that they'd been nurturing for quite a while. Removing ears and nose, that is really personal, y'know? A random baby theft is essentially a more brutal form of mugging in that the perp is after what they want and not concerned so much with the victim... a victim might get stabbed or whatever a few more times than the perp intends, but not something like nose removing. If a serial killer does it as a regular part of MO then it is part of having generalized some sort of personal resentment to an entire category of victim.

 

[carbuff]

Yes, I agree, the way Beth was thrown away does seem to have a personal element to it. Quite a number of the stolen-baby cases involve a woman's envious best friend, though, and the personal element might arise there. Especially if they were a same-sex couple. When your girlfriend is pregnant, you *know* she has been cheating on you.

Scenario:
murderer: You're pregnant. You've been cheating.
Beth: Yes, I guess I'm not as lesbian as I thought I was. (leaves)
murderer: simmers and broods
Beth, nearly ready to give birth: I'm back. I'm sorry. He left me.
murderer: pulls gun, etc.

 

[Billylee]

This site made a comment about the breasts being cut off.

http://peace4missing.ning.com/profiles/blogs/carbon-county-beth-doe

I hadn't seen that mentioned anywhere else before. I'm just wondering if they were at the scene also or missing like the nose & ears.

Assuming it's true - it kind of puts a different light on the nose/ears thing - in my mind.

This article is apparently from "The Morning Call", but I can't find it there. Supposedly written by a Bob Laylo, who does show up in archives searched there from 96-08. I just wonder why this particular article doesn't seem retrievable. The article says the coroner had ruled that she was[ strangled and that her breasts were cut off. The only date on the article says Oct 31, but it also says the body was exhumed 31 years later, so that would be October of 2007, that the body was exhumed?

JMO but the breasts being cut off as well screams psychopath.

 

[carbuff]

Yes, if the breasts were cut off as well, that would change my opinion about a number of things...

 

[hmg]

This article is apparently from "The Morning Call", but I can't find it there. Supposedly written by a Bob Laylo, who does show up in archives searched there from 96-08. I just wonder why this particular article doesn't seem retrievable. The article says the coroner had ruled that she was NOT strangled and that her breasts were cut off. The only date on the article says Oct 31, but it also says the body was exhumed 31 years later, so that would be October of 2007, that the body was exhumed?

JMO but the breasts being cut off as well screams psychopath.

Breasts being cut does lend itself to a different type of crime.

BTW the article does state she was strangled: "Three days later, Dr. Halbert Fillinger from the Philadelphia medical examiner's office did an autopsy and ruled the woman was strangled."

Another thing to note: "In addition to seeking a genetic identification, police plan to have two forensic dentists examine the woman. McAndrew said there were discrepancies between handwritten investigative notes and a dental chart."

I wonder if dentals on Doe, etc. are the correct ones? :waitasec:

 

[carbuff]

Breasts being cut does lend itself to a different type of crime.

BTW the article does state she was strangled: "Three days later, Dr. Halbert Fillinger from the Philadelphia medical examiner's office did an autopsy and ruled the woman was strangled."

Another thing to note: "In addition to seeking a genetic identification, police plan to have two forensic dentists examine the woman. McAndrew said there were discrepancies between handwritten investigative notes and a dental chart."

I wonder if dentals on Doe, etc. are the correct ones? :waitasec:

Here's the earlier post about the dental issue, from CCJD: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - PA PA - Beth & Baby Doe-Pregnant UID WF, Carbon Co. PA 1976

I am under the impression that Betty Redmond among others were ruled out on the basis of the bad dentals, but I don't know what's been done since then.

 

[Billylee]

Breasts being cut does lend itself to a different type of crime.

BTW the article does state she was strangled: "Three days later, Dr. Halbert Fillinger from the Philadelphia medical examiner's office did an autopsy and ruled the woman was strangled."

Another thing to note: "In addition to seeking a genetic identification, police plan to have two forensic dentists examine the woman. McAndrew said there were discrepancies between handwritten investigative notes and a dental chart."

I wonder if dentals on Doe, etc. are the correct ones? :waitasec:

Ooooh, my bad! I think I was seeing things this morning. I'm gonna delete that part from my post, so I don't confuse the issue! Thanks.