Parental rights vs. child safety (Was there any reason Josh was awarded visits?)

[wenwe4]

No one could possibly know whether those kids would have continued to be safe. The outcome could have been exactly the same even if the kids were left with him. Or they might all have disappeared to some other country. Or any number of things might have happened.

What we have to deal with is what actually happened - the man who was given visitation with his children turned around and killed his children. He didn't do it because he never saw them - he was able to do it because he had visitation in the place of his choice.

Therefore, Josh was able to kill his children and himself because the system was too lenient, not because they were too strict. :cow: Just my opinion only.



Those kids are dead at the hand of the own father.

Susan has been missing for years, and Josh was the last one to see her.

Those are facts. Why should anyone dismiss facts?



Because child *advertiser censored* is illegal? And people who keep that stuff on their computers are often a danger to children?

That seems like erring on the side of keeping children safe.


That's a good question, and I hope we get answers. However, it seems that Josh had lots of time when first Utah then Washington gave him the benefit of the doubt. As a suspect, he was very lucky for a long time. Unfortunately, his own psychology caught up with him - but not quickly enough to save those boys.



Nobody knows what he said or did to those children. They seem pretty traumatized about losing their mother. Should Josh get a pass on making their mother disappear? That's the only reason we are still talking about him after all these years (or was he before he practiced murder-suicide).

Well said Thoughtfox!!! Thank you for your calm and straightforward comments. I completely agree.

 

[cocomod]

The fact is that Josh brought the scrutiny upon himself by trying to tarnish Susan's image in public. LE basically had not "bothered" Josh for months. Yes, there were inuendos on the internet about him, but LE had not been to interview or talk to Josh in months. However, Josh and his father continued to wage a very personal battle with the Cox family by posting horrible things about them on the internet. The next battle was the childhood journals of Susan. When they decided to post those, LE came into the picture again. A search warrant was issued because of information provided to LE about Steven Powell having an obsession with Susan. His obsession included pictures and her "underwear" being in his bedroom in a locked cabinet.

When LE came to the home to get these items, they found MUCH more than they even bargained for. The fact that Josh lived in a home that had a picture on the wall of a naked woman with swords through her. The fact that Josh's brother answered the door naked. The fact that Steven Powell and Josh Powell had *advertiser censored* on his computer. These are the facts that made Josh Powell lose his kids. These are very real facts; and very real indicators that the children were in a harmful environment. These facts are what brought CPS into the picture. Josh Powell CHOSE to live with two very vulnerable children in this environment.

When Josh lost his children, the recommendation of the judge was that Josh was to receive counseling, move from the horrible environment, and have supervised visits with his kids. Josh still lived at SP's home and only staged a house. No clothing was found at the home where the children died. Josh only attended ONE therapy session. It is my understanding that the judge could have denied any further visitations with his children because of this fact alone. However, the judge was TOO lenient with Josh IMHO. He allowed the "supervised" visitation to continue. The CPS did not tell the Cox family that the supervised visits had become a bother at their offices, so they moved to Josh's home. This fact alone may have spurred additional changes to the visits.

Josh did this. He had NO reason to kill these beautiful boys. If he had NOTHING to hide, he could have worked through the system. There were too many eyes on this case to allow CPS to abuse Josh - IMHO. In this case, the rights of the parent - Josh - superceded the rights of the child's saftey. They did not take the kids completely away even though many believed that he killed his wife. But they did order evaluations when it was found that Josh had a very, very bad habit; and he brought his children from Utah to live in a very, very bad environment in WA.

 

[wenwe4]

The fact is that Josh brought the scrutiny upon himself by trying to tarnish Susan's image in public. LE basically had not "bothered" Josh for months. Yes, there were inuendos on the internet about him, but LE had not been to interview or talk to Josh in months. However, Josh and his father continued to wage a very personal battle with the Cox family by posting horrible things about them on the internet. The next battle was the childhood journals of Susan. When they decided to post those, LE came into the picture again. A search warrant was issued because of information provided to LE about Steven Powell having an obsession with Susan. His obsession included pictures and her "underwear" being in his bedroom in a locked cabinet.

When LE came to the home to get these items, they found MUCH more than they even bargained for. The fact that Josh lived in a home that had a picture on the wall of a naked woman with swords through her. The fact that Josh's brother answered the door naked. The fact that Steven Powell and Josh Powell had *advertiser censored* on his computer. These are the facts that made Josh Powell lose his kids. These are very real facts; and very real indicators that the children were in a harmful environment. These facts are what brought CPS into the picture. Josh Powell CHOSE to live with two very vulnerable children in this environment.

When Josh lost his children, the recommendation of the judge was that Josh was to receive counseling, move from the horrible environment, and have supervised visits with his kids. Josh still lived at SP's home and only staged a house. No clothing was found at the home where the children died. Josh only attended ONE therapy session. It is my understanding that the judge could have denied any further visitations with his children because of this fact alone. However, the judge was TOO lenient with Josh IMHO. He allowed the "supervised" visitation to continue. The CPS did not tell the Cox family that the supervised visits had become a bother at their offices, so they moved to Josh's home. This fact alone may have spurred additional changes to the visits.

Josh did this. He had NO reason to kill these beautiful boys. If he had NOTHING to hide, he could have worked through the system. There were too many eyes on this case to allow CPS to abuse Josh - IMHO. In this case, the rights of the parent - Josh - superceded the rights of the child's saftey. They did not take the kids completely away even though many believed that he killed his wife. But they did order evaluations when it was found that Josh had a very, very bad habit; and he brought his children from Utah to live in a very, very bad environment in WA.

You are absolutely right. I didn't know the timing of the brother answering the door naked, the pic on the wall, happened in Washington. The Judge ordered Supervised visits, and allowed them in a home that was "staged". What did the Guardian Ad Litem have say about the change calling for in-home visits after attending one counseling session?

Bottom line. . . . no matter what mistakes were made along the way, Josh Powell meticulously plotted, planned and carried out the brutal executions of his two young sons. He manipulated everyone to get his way. He is the cause of the children's deaths and things could have been done better, but not prevented. He was a disturbed man on a mission from the get go.

 

[cluciano63]

Susan Powell was in the (presumed) safety of her own home when she was (most likely) murdered and removed to be hidden away. JP felt comfortable operating from within his premises, apparently. He was the only POI/suspect in that crime. What more should it have taken for CPS to determine that IF any visitation must occur with the boys, that it should take place in a monitored, secure location inside a courthouse or police station, a place with video cameras, voice recorders, armed guards, etc....CPS does not have to meet the same standard of guilt beyond reasonable doubt and could have opted on the side of caution for the sake of the boys, but chose to "honor" the rights of the "father" instead. And here we are. JMO

 

[cocomod]

You are absolutely right. I didn't know the timing of the brother answering the door naked, the pic on the wall, happened in Washington. The Judge ordered Supervised visits, and allowed them in a home that was "staged". What did the Guardian Ad Litem have say about the change calling for in-home visits after attending one counseling session?

Bottom line. . . . no matter what mistakes were made along the way, Josh Powell meticulously plotted, planned and carried out the brutal executions of his two young sons. He manipulated everyone to get his way. He is the cause of the children's deaths and things could have been done better, but not prevented. He was a disturbed man on a mission from the get go.

The change for in-home vs at-station visits occurred because the CPS determined that Josh Powell and his boys were too high profile. The visits could be "disruptive" to other parents coming in for their supervised visits.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/josh-powells-computer-parent-child-incest-images-police/story?id=15555337

The picture of a naked woman with a sword through her body (very horrible picture) as well as a noose was found at Steven Powell's home in WA after a warrant was served for the personal diaries of Susan.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlin...l-takes-the-fifth-on-susan-cox-disappearance/

 

[DLT88]

I don't think the boys were safe with JP. Whether he engaged in the acts of his brother or father or not, he stayed in that house with all of that strange activity going on. That is not a healthy environment. I most certainly would NOT allow my children to be around that kind of atmosphere.

And there is no reason to kill your own children. None. This wasn't a mercy killing, this was a selfish murder.

I sometimes saw a sadness in little Charlie so I almost am worried he was abused by SP. Or it could be that he was more sensitive. I noticed him stepping back in all the photos where Braden was so open with affection for Grandpa Chuck. He's in the background in all of them looking tentative at the camera. So I think he was afraid of the contact. But he is sitting in Grandpa Chuck's lap lying back in one of them but in another under the blanket with Braden and Grandpa Chuck, he sits up and is moved forward. I so hope SP didn't abuse him but I just noticed little Charlie stepped back from that kind of affection not ready to trust it.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I sometimes saw a sadness in little Charlie so I almost am worried he was abused by SP. Or it could be that he was more sensitive. I noticed him stepping back in all the photos where Braden was so open with affection for Grandpa Chuck. He's in the background in all of them looking tentative at the camera. So I think he was afraid of the contact. But he is sitting in Grandpa Chuck's lap lying back in one of them but in another under the blanket with Braden and Grandpa Chuck, he sits up and is moved forward. I so hope SP didn't abuse him but I just noticed little Charlie stepped back from that kind of affection not ready to trust it.

I think it was clear that Susan Cox Powell loved her children. In every picture with them, she just glowed.

I also think that everything you observed could be explained by the fact that a little boy lost his mama. Braden was only two, too young to really remember Susan but Charlie was four and quite old enough to remember her.

And not just his mama--within a month of losing her, he was moved to a new house (major stressor) and lost touch with any friends he had or any other caregivers he may have had regular contact with (another major stressor).

Even if the boys were never abused in SP's household, I imagine it was chaotic and confusing to a small child. There may well have been a lot of yelling that was not directed at the children but small children often find adult yelling at, say, the TV stressful.

All that would be enough to stress out any four year old for years, let alone one who had a family like SP's household.

 

[Sulamith]

From every news source I have read these poor kids were not abused. If you want to read about horribly abused kids read: http://pysih.com/ Yes, Susan's husband killed them, but it does not seem that they lived through horrible abuse.

 

[gwenabob]

From every news source I have read these poor kids were not abused. If you want to read about horribly abused kids read: http://pysih.com/ Yes, Susan's husband killed them, but it does not seem that they lived through horrible abuse.

Personally, I think having your mother ripped suddenly and without explanation from your life at a tender age is abusive. I think not being allowed to look at photos or talk about your mother afterwards, and only refer to her by her given name, not "mommy" is also abusive. I think having your father and grandfather constantly lie about and slander your missing mother in front of you and the news media is also abusive. I think having your father and grandfather pick fights in public with your other grandfather is also abusive. I think these boys knew PLENTY of abuse over the last couple years.

 

[couggal]

From every news source I have read these poor kids were not abused. If you want to read about horribly abused kids read: http://pysih.com/ Yes, Susan's husband killed them, but it does not seem that they lived through horrible abuse.

Just because news outlets haven't reported abuse doesn't mean it didn't happen. There are a lot of clues in the media that point very strongly that these boys were abused emotionally, sexually, and physically. Love you and rest in peace Charlie and Braden.

 

[KatieLeigh]

As always, if someone gives me information that my facts are wrong I try to find it (when they won't provide it). Still haven't been able to find anything that JP refused to do ANYTHING that was asked of him, did find this. JP's statement made in court at his dependency hearing.

“Not only have I received a letter from CPS stating that the allegations against me are ‘unfounded,’ I have also received praise for my relationship with my sons and for my stability in the face of a very difficult circumstance beyond my control,” Powell wrote in Feb. 1 court filing. “Having demonstrated my fitness as a parent, it is time for my sons to come home. No child wants to be taken from their parents and it is not reasonable to continue this process. At this point, it is only by bending and breaking the rules that anyone even tries to keep it going.”

I'm quite certain there are at least a few state workers in WA that have trouble sleeping at night. But statistics show that the ones that end up leaving this field...are the ones that either recognize and try to stand up to the abuse of power, or simply can't live with the knowledge of what is done and move on to another career.

The more false facts that I read that simply add to the sensationalism of this case, the more convinced I am in my opinion. Quite sad (not to mention irresponsible) that facts aren't what convicts people anymore.

 

[gwenabob]

As always, if someone gives me information that my facts are wrong I try to find it (when they won't provide it). Still haven't been able to find anything that JP refused to do ANYTHING that was asked of him, did find this. JP's statement made in court at his dependency hearing.

“Not only have I received a letter from CPS stating that the allegations against me are ‘unfounded,’ I have also received praise for my relationship with my sons and for my stability in the face of a very difficult circumstance beyond my control,” Powell wrote in Feb. 1 court filing. “Having demonstrated my fitness as a parent, it is time for my sons to come home. No child wants to be taken from their parents and it is not reasonable to continue this process. At this point, it is only by bending and breaking the rules that anyone even tries to keep it going.”

I'm quite certain there are at least a few state workers in WA that have trouble sleeping at night. But statistics show that the ones that end up leaving this field...are the ones that either recognize and try to stand up to the abuse of power, or simply can't live with the knowledge of what is done and move on to another career.

The more false facts that I read that simply add to the sensationalism of this case, the more convinced I am in my opinion. Quite sad (not to mention irresponsible) that facts aren't what convicts people anymore.

Except that Josh was lying. He only went to ONE court ordered counseling session. The house he moved into was a sham. He never moved out of his father's house. Josh was trying to circumvent the safety system put in place for the good of his boys in order to get his way without having to toe the line.

 

[wenwe4]

As always, if someone gives me information that my facts are wrong I try to find it (when they won't provide it). Still haven't been able to find anything that JP refused to do ANYTHING that was asked of him, did find this. JP's statement made in court at his dependency hearing.

“Not only have I received a letter from CPS stating that the allegations against me are ‘unfounded,’ I have also received praise for my relationship with my sons and for my stability in the face of a very difficult circumstance beyond my control,” Powell wrote in Feb. 1 court filing. “Having demonstrated my fitness as a parent, it is time for my sons to come home. No child wants to be taken from their parents and it is not reasonable to continue this process. At this point, it is only by bending and breaking the rules that anyone even tries to keep it going.”

I'm quite certain there are at least a few state workers in WA that have trouble sleeping at night. But statistics show that the ones that end up leaving this field...are the ones that either recognize and try to stand up to the abuse of power, or simply can't live with the knowledge of what is done and move on to another career.

The more false facts that I read that simply add to the sensationalism of this case, the more convinced I am in my opinion. Quite sad (not to mention irresponsible) that facts aren't what convicts people anymore.

Link please?

a lot of us have trouble sleeping at night . . . knowing Josh manipulated and used his power of parental rights to brutally maim (sic?) and murder his own small children. (IMO)

KatieLeigh, respectfully I believe your arguements would be better argued for a case that the end result was not the death of the children at the hands of their Father. I do agree with some of what you have said, but this time . . . . I am just "not feeling the love" for standing up for Josh Powell as a loving, kind, and appropriate Father to these two young boys. You are correct about one thing . .. . Josh Powell will never be convicted on the facts of his own choices and behaviors. He died cowardly. MOO.

 

[x_files]

From every news source I have read these poor kids were not abused. If you want to read about horribly abused kids read: http://pysih.com/ Yes, Susan's husband killed them, but it does not seem that they lived through horrible abuse.

Having your mom "disappear" then be ripped from your mother and grandparents and not allowed to speak about her or them isn't abuse? It may not have been sexual or physical abuse (that we know of) but it was emotional, mental and verbal abuse.
This family was far from functional or normal. The environment was toxic and abusive.
He murdered his own children, that is the ultimate and final act of abuse/violence. There's no arguing who committed the crime. It was Josh.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

OLYMPIA, Wash. (AP) - Josh Powell had hundreds of images of disturbing cartoon sex and graphic depictions of incest on his home computer, something Utah authorities investigating his wife's disappearance kept private for more than two years.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Josh-Powell-had-400-cartoon-sex-and-incest-images-139539898.html

 

[gwenabob]

As always, if someone gives me information that my facts are wrong I try to find it (when they won't provide it). Still haven't been able to find anything that JP refused to do ANYTHING that was asked of him, did find this. JP's statement made in court at his dependency hearing.

“Not only have I received a letter from CPS stating that the allegations against me are ‘unfounded,’ I have also received praise for my relationship with my sons and for my stability in the face of a very difficult circumstance beyond my control,” Powell wrote in Feb. 1 court filing. “Having demonstrated my fitness as a parent, it is time for my sons to come home. No child wants to be taken from their parents and it is not reasonable to continue this process. At this point, it is only by bending and breaking the rules that anyone even tries to keep it going.”

I'm quite certain there are at least a few state workers in WA that have trouble sleeping at night. But statistics show that the ones that end up leaving this field...are the ones that either recognize and try to stand up to the abuse of power, or simply can't live with the knowledge of what is done and move on to another career.

The more false facts that I read that simply add to the sensationalism of this case, the more convinced I am in my opinion. Quite sad (not to mention irresponsible) that facts aren't what convicts people anymore.

I do hope you will read this article http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53...state.html.csp and re-think whether Josh was a fit parent for these two boys. Teaching bigotry and hate toward others is not my idea of a good parent.

 

[erynne936]

From every news source I have read these poor kids were not abused. If you want to read about horribly abused kids read: http://pysih.com/ Yes, Susan's husband killed them, but it does not seem that they lived through horrible abuse.

You do NOT know what goes on behind closed doors and we might never know. Abusers are skilled at portraying normalcy in public or in front of others to hide their true evil. Also, abusers are adept at brainwashing and intimidating their victims so that the victims hide the abuse to protect themselves and the abuser. "News sources" are not the final say on whether children have been abused. And not all abuse is physical or sexual. Even if Josh never laid a finger on those boys, which unfortunately I sincerely doubt, the emotional abuse would have been enough to scar them for life, based on some of the things we are hearing that they have said and how they observed Josh treating their mother and talking about his in-laws and the Mormon church. MOO.

 

[dovebar]

Teaching kids to hate is abuse. Lying to kids is abuse. Killing kids' mother is abuse.

What's next? Psychologists writing reports that say, "Jeffrey Dahmer would be an excellent father because he likes to cook." Or "Gacy would be an excellent father because he likes to dress up as a clown and make kids laugh." Or "Ted Bundy is an excellent father because he has shown efforts to improve himself by studying law and he likes to take the children on long trips."

Ugh, ugh, ugh. WHAT is wrong with people's ability to think and reason these days?

 

[cocomod]

The sad part is that taking Josh's word for it is nonsense. The ATTORNEY GENERAL has stated that the children needed to stay away from Josh for reasons known to the AG at the time of the hearing. The reason – animated *advertiser censored* between a father and their OWN child – on Josh’s personal computer!! How could anyone not think that *advertiser censored* depicting such an act rises to the level of risk for a child staying with that person?

Josh’s evaluations ordered during the first hearing, here is the link :
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...-children-to-their-maternal-grandparents.html

Josh will undergo a psychological evaluation including a "parental component."

Long also told the judge that Josh Powell has admitted that he takes photos of people's legs in public without their knowledge. Long also talked about a poster of a woman found inside the house with a knife stuck through her.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53422968-78/powell-nelson-court-coxes.html.csp

Long, who has viewed the images, defended the recommendations.

"It’s not a fishing expedition," Long said. "The content of those images ... is not something you would soon forget."

These images found on Josh’s computer could not be charged as criminal because they were not depicting “real” people, only cartoons. However, they could be determined to be not in the best interest of having a child around this person. CPS can and should determine that a person looking into this kind of *advertiser censored* might pose a threat to the children. The children were put into immediate counseling. We do NOT know what the boys told the counselor. However, everyone in the court during the second hearing said that Josh should NOT get custody back of his children.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=184...rtoon-sex-and-incest-images-&s_cid=featured-2

Police did not fabricate the images; and he did not download them "accidentally". Did anyone catch the latest article? 400 images - that is NOT curiosity and it is not accidental! Wow!

Again, I will reiterate, Josh brought the scrutiny upon himself. He is the one that brought LE's attention back to him and his father by trying to smear Susan's name and reputation. She was not even here to defend herself. Their attempts brought LE to their home again.

CPS had very good reasons to keep the children away from Josh and should have taken ALL visitation away from him until the evaluation was complete IMHO. Obviously the Cox family had very good reason to worry about his state of mind and his ability to harm innocent little children in his own sick attempt to keep the truth from coming out.

 

[CHERIE.T]

Yep, 400 images!!!!!!! Many of parents having sex with their children. waawaa

lease::what:

Anyone else wonder if Susan found out what ***** was downloading? Was she killed when she approached him about it?