Parental rights vs. child safety (Was there any reason Josh was awarded visits?)

[cocomod]

The children may very well have been abused based on the interviews by the CPS agent. These beautiful boys lived in the home of a sexual pervert - Steven Powell. IF the Powell family had stayed quiet and left things alone, the perverse pictures and videos in Steven Powell's possession may never have been found. However, these two horrible men had to continue to try to bash Susan Powell in the media. THEY are the ones that brought out the journals and said that they were going to put them on the internet no matter what. Those journals are what preempted the visit to the Powell home. During that visit, the perversion was found.

Sorry, but the Powell men are the ones to blame here. NOONE else is at fault. The boys did exhibit signs of being abused. They were "robots" as described by many. According to the court, they were beginning to act and behave in a much better way after being with the Coxes for those months.

I will still NEVER allow anyone to condone killing a child as a way of "getting back" at the system. There are many that have been wrongly accused and had to deal with CPS. They do NOT kill their children. By killing his children, I think that Josh Powell just made EVERYONE realize that the CPS concerns were justified.

 

[Kimster]

I don't think the boys were safe with JP. Whether he engaged in the acts of his brother or father or not, he stayed in that house with all of that strange activity going on. That is not a healthy environment. I most certainly would NOT allow my children to be around that kind of atmosphere.

And there is no reason to kill your own children. None. This wasn't a mercy killing, this was a selfish murder.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

Correct, they left the boys with him for TWO YEARS and when they couldn't make their case, they moved to that level. His children were completely safe with him for TWO YEARS and would have continued to be had they not done what they did.
"No, he hasn't been convicted, or even arrested, but anyone with a lick of sense knows he did it. And of course, all of the fears that everyone had about him were true. He is a murderer and his children were in danger with him. No one can argue that."
As I said, there's prison's full of people that "anyone with a lick of sense" put there because they KNOW they did it. Luckily there are still people in our country (though few in number obviously)who believe in innocent until proven guilty.
As I said, you can make anything be TRUE as you believe. They certainly did in this case and at the cost of two young boys lives. So, as I said, keep believing that way and continue using kids to "make yourself right". As other posters have said, there is really no way, short of locking JP up, that they could have prevented him from doing what he was going to do. And I will ALWAYS argue that those children were NOT in danger and should not have been removed You keep wanting to err on the safety of the children, well why didn't they then? I'm all for protecting children that have a need to be protected. I DO NOT condone LE or any other agency using children to try to prove their point or taking children from parents and THEN trying to build a case of abuse. For that matter, this whole sexual deviant testing thing, why wasn't that ordered as part of the plan when they were first removed and the children KEPT from him until it was completed? Because they knew damn good and well he didn't sexually or otherwise abuse his children. What they didn't know (but really should at this point)is some people push back.
So for all of you to be right, we need to just allow Govt to follow the Wade model of investigating. Mays well change our name to United States of Korea...

Welcome to WS KatieLeigh! :seeya:

I respectfully disagree with some of your points but hope more details will be revealed soon.

wm

 

[KatieLeigh]

"I am aware that CPS makes mistakes."

CPS does not make "mistakes". These are blatant, intentional violations of law, perjury, filing false reports and violating peoples civil rights in order to justify taking a child (or children)and then doing whatever they have to in order to be "right". Mistakes are something that happens, are admitted and corrected. This agency has no desire to change the way they do things because of the amount of money that is associated with it and the power that they enjoy having in unlimited amounts, mainly because society will not step up and do something. There are only 4 attorneys in the state of CA that will take on this agency and that's just been in the past 10 years. Call any one of them and they will tell you they get HUNDREDS of calls asking for help every month. One of them told me he has NO DOUBT that probably every single one of the calls are justified but he obviously can't handle that kind of caseload.
Just the INSANITY of their "policies" should be questioned. As in the Wade case, he is accused of violently, sexually abusing his daughter but his son can stay with him and his mother because he's safe? If a man could do what he supposedly did with his daughter then NO CHILD should be in his care. The fact is, they knew very well he didn't do a thing. And this case COULD have turned out just as badly, in fact his wife did attempt to commit suicide. And I don't have a case to compare to JP...other than the Florida one and, as we've seen, his children are perfectly fine. It's my belief that authorities in this case also knew very well that JP was not a sexual deviant. At the same time, they SHOULD have known, if that's the direction they wanted to take this, his children would be in danger. If anyone knows "a lick" about this agency, saw the look on his face when being told he was going to now be made out to be a sexual deviant...those children THEN needed protection. However, since they were well aware that this was just another tool for them to use to keep his children from him (NOT because he actually was sexually or otherwise abusing his children)of course they didn't take that into consideration.
So continue thinking these are just "mistakes". They have been allowed to abuse their authority UNCHECKED for years. A convicted murderer has more rights than a parent in Juvenile Dependency Court and that is a fact, not an opinion. I have no desire to be right. I've said in no uncertain terms that this agency is needed. But (I would hope)no one would try to defend out and out police brutality, perjury, planting information, filling false reports...and that can, AT THE VERY LEAST, be submitted for public opinion. So why does anyone condone that this agency should be able to do it?
Simply look at the lawsuits that ARE public information. They don't even try to deny that they do all of the above. They simply try to justify it. And they do so because of threads like this. Because public opinion is "they make mistakes, BUT..." There's more than enough facts to support what I'm saying. If no one wants to take the time to investigate it, it is (as I said before), a societal problem. Wade's address to Congress in 1995 AT THE VERY LEAST should have provided some oversight to this agency. Gov Schwarzenegger had to SHUT DOWN a town hall meeting because of the number of parents that showed up to demand something be done. There are numerous Grand Jury reports recommending oversight because of the abuses. So please don't dismiss what I'm saying as "mistakes" are made. That is simply irresponsible. And also what is pretty amazing to me about this situation. There is far more evidence to support what I'm saying than there is that JP killed his wife (which again, I'll give that to you all, he very well MAY have)yet it's just not important enough for anyone to even consider because that would make what I say true. That these two boys may still be alive today had it not been for what this agency did to their father. At the very LEAST, knowing what they were going to do, they had to consider the possibility that it would clearly affect JP's mental state and not allow him to see them at all. But again...they were well aware that he didn't abuse his kids.

 

[KatieLeigh]

Welcome to WS KatieLeigh! :seeya:

I respectfully disagree with some of your points but hope more details will be revealed soon.

wm

Thanks! Have seen a few happy ending stories here and can't wait to get to them...

 

[KatieLeigh]

PS...please don't accuse me of "condoning" what JP did. I obviously do not. This thread is about parental rights vs child safety. I am simply providing information to this group that, should they chose to investigate it, they will see that children being used by this agency is far more common that what people would like to believe. Whether it's by parents who are divorcing, angry neighbors, LE, WHOEVER doesn't matter to me. Children should not be used in any type of situation and this agency should not permit it, including when they should decide to simply because they CAN.
Nor am I "bashing" LE, or CPS specifically in this case. Hindsight is 20/20 as we all know, but when many, many situations are repeated over and over with the same results...it should be clear that the situation is what needs to be examined, not the sensationalism of the result. And you can be sure that many other children are suffering because of situations like this, they don't have to be murdered by their parents to cause them damage.
Being a retired Deputy Sheriff I'm all for using any method LEGALLY possible if it's clear that someone is suspected of a crime. But for people to simply close their eyes to the fact that the bar has slowly been moved so far out in order to "convict" people that we no longer have any respect for the law or courts simply because we "know" what is going on...it's simply irresponsible.

 

[Kimster]

Welcome to WS KatieLeigh! :seeya:

I respectfully disagree with some of your points but hope more details will be revealed soon.

wm

Where are my manners? :blush:

Welcome to Websleuths KatieLeigh! I'm glad you have another point of view! It makes me think.

:welcome:

:wagon:

 

[KatieLeigh]

"The boys did exhibit signs of being abused. They were "robots" as described by many. According to the court, they were beginning to act and behave in a much better way after being with the Coxes for those months."
Again, they were described as "robots" by Mr. Cox. Who are the "many"? And these boys weren't hidden from anyone, they were in school, JP allowed the media to interact with them on a FEW occasions and they acted like perfectly happy little guys. This is the type of "media sensation" that I'm referring to. And quite frankly I'll quit harping on this because I can't keep pointing out that people continually keep putting out sensation rather than facts just to prove they are right. If the school officials had concerns why weren't they reported prior to this? ANYTHING that anyone says about the boys showing signs of abuse at this point is suspect...I can guarantee that if there are any school officials that felt these boys were perfectly fine and well adjusted, there is no way they are going to speak out and say so. But many will be "convinced" at this point that they were abused. Sorry, again, you can't have it both ways.
There ARE other people that have killed their children OR other people because they have been falsely accused. And you can keep excusing the behavior of this agency or not. Again, a child or family doesn't have to die to be damaged. Justifying the blatant abuse of power simply isn't acceptable to me whether it's one child that dies or 100.
So....'nuff said If people want to keep sensationalizing the facts I'll be happy to take a job correcting them...since that's not a possibility I simply don't have the time...I'm trying to stop this from happening again and have to focus on that. As we've all seen, the media is done with it now, if there's ever solid evidence that JP (or someone else)killed his wife (which I hope for the Cox's sake they do find it)it'll pop up again in this case. Everyone will forget these boys and the ones that continue to suffer at the hands of this agency...I will not, nor will I EVER simply turn my head when they do it again.

 

[Irish_Eyes]

Just as it's impossible to say with any certainty that the Powell boys were abused, it's impossible to say with any certainty that they were not. However, given what IS known, at the very least there was reasonable cause for concern that they were at risk, and sadly, they WERE at risk.

Again, I think it all boils down to what your take is on the title of this thread. There is a very gray area where a child's right to safety intersects a parent's right to access to the child. When the system fails, the results are often tragic, whether in a case where a parent is wrongfully accused, or the opposite and at least equally common failure where a child is forced into unsupervised contact with (or even custody by) an abuser.

So if your take on this is that the children should have been left indefinitely with JP, because you believe the evidence against him was somehow fabricated, we will have to agree to disagree. Or if your thought is that despite the findings of CPS, JP should have been allowed to continue raising his children in that environment, again, we're not going to see eye to eye on that, and that's okay.

The only other thing I think it's worth mentioning is that nobody forced JP to kill his children. People are not driven to kill their children, it is a heinous and selfish choice made by a particular type of personality who think of their children as mere possessions and extensions of themselves rather than whole and separate individuals.

It reminds me of a case in California a few years ago where a man killed himself and his 2 year old daughter because he didn't get his way in custody proceedings. And his brother, who is an attorney no less, claimed he was bullied into it, and actually defended him saying he did the "right" thing!

Here's a link: http://www.abajournal.com/news/arti...-fought_custody_case_leads_to_call_for_disbar

As a society, we can't enable or make excuses for people who kill their children just to "win" and make sure the other parent/grandparent doesn't get them.

 

[cocomod]

Irish Eyes. :thankyou: :goodpost:

You worded your post perfectly!

 

[Linda7NJ]

"I am aware that CPS makes mistakes."

CPS does not make "mistakes". These are blatant, intentional violations of law, perjury, filing false reports and violating peoples civil rights in order to justify taking a child (or children)and then doing whatever they have to in order to be "right". Mistakes are something that happens, are admitted and corrected. This agency has no desire to change the way they do things because of the amount of money that is associated with it and the power that they enjoy having in unlimited amounts, mainly because society will not step up and do something. There are only 4 attorneys in the state of CA that will take on this agency and that's just been in the past 10 years. Call any one of them and they will tell you they get HUNDREDS of calls asking for help every month. One of them told me he has NO DOUBT that probably every single one of the calls are justified but he obviously can't handle that kind of caseload.
Just the INSANITY of their "policies" should be questioned. As in the Wade case, he is accused of violently, sexually abusing his daughter but his son can stay with him and his mother because he's safe? If a man could do what he supposedly did with his daughter then NO CHILD should be in his care. The fact is, they knew very well he didn't do a thing. And this case COULD have turned out just as badly, in fact his wife did attempt to commit suicide. And I don't have a case to compare to JP...other than the Florida one and, as we've seen, his children are perfectly fine. It's my belief that authorities in this case also knew very well that JP was not a sexual deviant. At the same time, they SHOULD have known, if that's the direction they wanted to take this, his children would be in danger. If anyone knows "a lick" about this agency, saw the look on his face when being told he was going to now be made out to be a sexual deviant...those children THEN needed protection. However, since they were well aware that this was just another tool for them to use to keep his children from him (NOT because he actually was sexually or otherwise abusing his children)of course they didn't take that into consideration.
So continue thinking these are just "mistakes". They have been allowed to abuse their authority UNCHECKED for years. A convicted murderer has more rights than a parent in Juvenile Dependency Court and that is a fact, not an opinion. I have no desire to be right. I've said in no uncertain terms that this agency is needed. But (I would hope)no one would try to defend out and out police brutality, perjury, planting information, filling false reports...and that can, AT THE VERY LEAST, be submitted for public opinion. So why does anyone condone that this agency should be able to do it?
Simply look at the lawsuits that ARE public information. They don't even try to deny that they do all of the above. They simply try to justify it. And they do so because of threads like this. Because public opinion is "they make mistakes, BUT..." There's more than enough facts to support what I'm saying. If no one wants to take the time to investigate it, it is (as I said before), a societal problem. Wade's address to Congress in 1995 AT THE VERY LEAST should have provided some oversight to this agency. Gov Schwarzenegger had to SHUT DOWN a town hall meeting because of the number of parents that showed up to demand something be done. There are numerous Grand Jury reports recommending oversight because of the abuses. So please don't dismiss what I'm saying as "mistakes" are made. That is simply irresponsible. And also what is pretty amazing to me about this situation. There is far more evidence to support what I'm saying than there is that JP killed his wife (which again, I'll give that to you all, he very well MAY have)yet it's just not important enough for anyone to even consider because that would make what I say true. That these two boys may still be alive today had it not been for what this agency did to their father. At the very LEAST, knowing what they were going to do, they had to consider the possibility that it would clearly affect JP's mental state and not allow him to see them at all. But again...they were well aware that he didn't abuse his kids.

I don't disagree with the majority of what you have said. You hit the nail on the head. CPS hides behind confidentiality, runs amok with no oversight, and filled with incompetence from the top down.

I do believe Josh felt backed he was backed into a corner by the upcoming psy eval and pending poly. IMO If he couldn't have the children no one could, that's why he murdered his wife. Everyone SHOULD have feared murder suicide. The judge should have suspended visitations until after the outcome of the exams or had ordered supervised visits be held at a visitation facility. It wasn't about keeping the children safe, that could have been easily done..it was about getting Josh.

 

[KatieLeigh]

Just as it's impossible to say with any certainty that the Powell boys were abused, it's impossible to say with any certainty that they were not. However, given what IS known, at the very least there was reasonable cause for concern that they were at risk, and sadly, they WERE at risk.

Again, I think it all boils down to what your take is on the title of this thread. There is a very gray area where a child's right to safety intersects a parent's right to access to the child. When the system fails, the results are often tragic, whether in a case where a parent is wrongfully accused, or the opposite and at least equally common failure where a child is forced into unsupervised contact with (or even custody by) an abuser.

So if your take on this is that the children should have been left indefinitely with JP, because you believe the evidence against him was somehow fabricated, we will have to agree to disagree. Or if your thought is that despite the findings of CPS, JP should have been allowed to continue raising his children in that environment, again, we're not going to see eye to eye on that, and that's okay.

The only other thing I think it's worth mentioning is that nobody forced JP to kill his children. People are not driven to kill their children, it is a heinous and selfish choice made by a particular type of personality who think of their children as mere possessions and extensions of themselves rather than whole and separate individuals.

It reminds me of a case in California a few years ago where a man killed himself and his 2 year old daughter because he didn't get his way in custody proceedings. And his brother, who is an attorney no less, claimed he was bullied into it, and actually defended him saying he did the "right" thing!

Here's a link: http://www.abajournal.com/news/arti...-fought_custody_case_leads_to_call_for_disbar

As a society, we can't enable or make excuses for people who kill their children just to "win" and make sure the other parent/grandparent doesn't get them.

Once again, I've never "enabled" OR "made excuses" for JP killing his children. And the evidence CPS had to take his children from him was *advertiser censored* on his computer. What I would like to see is the law followed, it's that simple. And the law states that they cannot remove a child unless there is risk of eminent danger or with a warrant. Having *advertiser censored* on a computer is NOT showing that the child was in eminent danger and I say again...everyone had access to those boys, they showed NO signs of abuse. Even to the very end the statements don't make sense. "The boys didn't want to go", yet they ran ahead of the social worker to greet their father. Does that sound like a couple of kids that were DREADING going on a visit? So yes, we'll agree to disagree but the facts show those children were not abused at the time they were taken. And clearly, if there were something to show that they were in eminent danger, absolutely take them. I really don't see what is so hard to understand about that.
Again...the Samaan-Fay case (which was just last August...shooting in Seal Beach was just October)wasn't simply a matter of "not getting his way". One person has a position of power and uses that in the courts and the courts allow it. People constantly complain about "dead beat dads" yet when a father wants to parent his child he's not allowed and for no good reason? He wasn't the one trying to deny the child access to her mother; he simply wanted to be a parent to his daughter and unless there is good reason why he shouldn't, why can't he? And I obviously don't agree with his brothers statement that he was right in what he did. I'm simply saying, AGAIN, quit using kids just because you can. And to ignore THAT fact is just as irresponsible as if I WERE to say that JP had every right to do what he did.
There's obviously fine line cases where hindsight is 20/20. Blatant abuse of power is what I am talking about. And when a child is placed with his abuser? Look at those situations and see who is the one in position of power. A child in the bay area sued the State just for that. Because her abuser was a high profile man and the court ignored everything but that.
If a stupid kid breaks into a house and the owner of the house shoots at him and kills someone walking in front of the house...the stupid kid is the one that gets charged with murder. He just wanted an Ipod, he would NEVER murder someone. But that's the law. Problem is, those IN CHARGE of the law have tweaked the bar to move in any direction they want simply because they can and no one will challenge it. To me, that is incredibly sad and dangerous. Show people that they have absolutely no chance for justice in a system that is SUPPOSED to be just...some will simply give up, others will push back. Neither is a good option but stopping the abuse is. I will be happy just to know that someone doesn't make a statement like "many people are falsely accused of child abuse and don't kill their kids" and thinks it's OKAY, by the time I'm gone. Change is slow and the abuse will never stop without the public demanding it. And for people to think it's okay for people to be falsely accused of child abuse just because the outcome isn't that they kill their children?; that's just sad. I will continue to stand by what my opinion is. Had this agency not abused their position of power those children would be alive today.
And to the poster that said JP didn't follow his parenting plan, if that's true, I apologize for posting untrue facts. I've never been able to find anything that says that.

 

[Irish_Eyes]

Maybe it depends then on your definition of the terms "abuse" and imminent harm. Did you actually read what was found on the computers? Not just adult *advertiser censored*, which I agree with you doesn't necessarily mean a child is at risk. Child *advertiser censored*, and specifically explicit images an adult living in the home allegedly recorded of other children. So I guess where the whole argument that they weren't in danger falls apart for me (aside from the fact that they were murdered) is the fact that someone who had already abused children by taking explicit images of them was residing in the home with free access to these children!

It's impossible - impossible - to state for a fact that these children were not abused. Mr. Cox, who impresses me as a basically decent and truthful person, has expressed his concern over behaviors and things the children said in his presence. That isn't beyond reasonable doubt proof, but at the same time, it can't just be entirely dismissed either.

I didn't say that it's okay when a parent faces wrong accusations. I said it's tragic, and it is, no question. But it would be equally tragic and irresponsible to ignore warning signs of abuse, there has to be a balance.

 

[CHICANA]

"I am aware that CPS makes mistakes."

CPS does not make "mistakes". These are blatant, intentional violations of law, perjury, filing false reports and violating peoples civil rights in order to justify taking a child (or children)and then doing whatever they have to in order to be "right". Mistakes are something that happens, are admitted and corrected. This agency has no desire to change the way they do things because of the amount of money that is associated with it and the power that they enjoy having in unlimited amounts, mainly because society will not step up and do something. There are only 4 attorneys in the state of CA that will take on this agency and that's just been in the past 10 years. Call any one of them and they will tell you they get HUNDREDS of calls asking for help every month. One of them told me he has NO DOUBT that probably every single one of the calls are justified but he obviously can't handle that kind of caseload.
Just the INSANITY of their "policies" should be questioned. As in the Wade case, he is accused of violently, sexually abusing his daughter but his son can stay with him and his mother because he's safe? If a man could do what he supposedly did with his daughter then NO CHILD should be in his care. The fact is, they knew very well he didn't do a thing. And this case COULD have turned out just as badly, in fact his wife did attempt to commit suicide. And I don't have a case to compare to JP...other than the Florida one and, as we've seen, his children are perfectly fine. It's my belief that authorities in this case also knew very well that JP was not a sexual deviant. At the same time, they SHOULD have known, if that's the direction they wanted to take this, his children would be in danger. If anyone knows "a lick" about this agency, saw the look on his face when being told he was going to now be made out to be a sexual deviant...those children THEN needed protection. However, since they were well aware that this was just another tool for them to use to keep his children from him (NOT because he actually was sexually or otherwise abusing his children)of course they didn't take that into consideration.
So continue thinking these are just "mistakes". They have been allowed to abuse their authority UNCHECKED for years. A convicted murderer has more rights than a parent in Juvenile Dependency Court and that is a fact, not an opinion. I have no desire to be right. I've said in no uncertain terms that this agency is needed. But (I would hope)no one would try to defend out and out police brutality, perjury, planting information, filling false reports...and that can, AT THE VERY LEAST, be submitted for public opinion. So why does anyone condone that this agency should be able to do it?
Simply look at the lawsuits that ARE public information. They don't even try to deny that they do all of the above. They simply try to justify it. And they do so because of threads like this. Because public opinion is "they make mistakes, BUT..." There's more than enough facts to support what I'm saying. If no one wants to take the time to investigate it, it is (as I said before), a societal problem. Wade's address to Congress in 1995 AT THE VERY LEAST should have provided some oversight to this agency. Gov Schwarzenegger had to SHUT DOWN a town hall meeting because of the number of parents that showed up to demand something be done. There are numerous Grand Jury reports recommending oversight because of the abuses. So please don't dismiss what I'm saying as "mistakes" are made. That is simply irresponsible. And also what is pretty amazing to me about this situation. There is far more evidence to support what I'm saying than there is that JP killed his wife (which again, I'll give that to you all, he very well MAY have)yet it's just not important enough for anyone to even consider because that would make what I say true. That these two boys may still be alive today had it not been for what this agency did to their father. At the very LEAST, knowing what they were going to do, they had to consider the possibility that it would clearly affect JP's mental state and not allow him to see them at all. But again...they were well aware that he didn't abuse his kids.

I agree with so much of what you are saying, but the blood is on Josh Powell's hands.
CPS can make a sane person crazy, I love how they can make a case by accusing a parent of being mentally unstable because they're depressed. DUH !! Losing your kid will cause depression, being told you're a bad parent is depressing. Of course a parent will be depressed when their kids are taken away from them and they have no idea if they're safe because they're under the supervision of a corrupt agency where many workers are totally lacking in common sense. I hate how kids that really need protection are ignored while others are taken from good parents for dumb reasons.
That said,there was something seriously wrong with Josh Powell. I believe he killed Susan and took his kids with him to dump her body. He was not a good person before this happened.
CPS didn't make Josh Powell a killer. His father might have.

 

[suzilight]

Pardon my ignorance, but I have just started following this case. I, like everyone else, am shocked to the core by the murder-suicide.

My question is, how did Josh get the boys alone if the visit was supervised?

 

[KatieLeigh]

Thanks Irish...guess that's my point, what you or I think doesn't matter, court law establishes what is imminent (and thank you for correcting my spelling!!)danger and in this case the minute SP was gone, so was the threat of imminent danger. But as I said, I have no problem agreeing to disagree...there is far too many other things involved with this to even attempt a discussion. I feel for the Coxes and hope desperately that they get some type of information about their daughter.
Just got a msg on my machine...2 more out of court settlements for 175,000, 182,000 and that is just for police/city liability...county (cps)hasn't even settled yet. I would just think that people would care that their tax dollars are being pissed away and their elected officials just sit and refuse to do a thing about it. To them, it's a numbers game...considering the lives of the children isn't even a thought. A dime doesn't come out of their pockets and the taxpayers don't know the half of it so as far as they're concerned, it's all good.

 

[Etilema]

Pardon my ignorance, but I have just started following this case. I, like everyone else, am shocked to the core by the murder-suicide.

My question is, how did Josh get the boys alone if the visit was supervised?

The children were walking in front of the social worker who was to supervise and they entered the house first, after which Josh shut and locked the door. Check out the threads about the social worker and Josh's saying he had a surprise, for more detail.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Pardon my ignorance, but I have just started following this case. I, like everyone else, am shocked to the core by the murder-suicide.

My question is, how did Josh get the boys alone if the visit was supervised?

The caseworker who was supervising the visits got the boys out of the car and walked with them up to the front door.

The three of them arrived at the front door with the two boys ahead of the CW. Josh Powell opened the door, pulled the two boys in and slammed the door in the CW's face. To paraphrase the CW's call to 911, he looked her right in the eye and closed the door.

The door was an ordinary width door, probably around 36 inches wide. With the space taken up by the door itself, there is usually only enough space in an ordinary doorway for one adult to enter at a time.

I remember, back when I was a young girl, my brother pulling this as a prank on me. He was only about five years old but with the advantage of going through the door first and me not expecting it, it was simple.

 

[wenwe4]

It occurs to me that the difference between this case and the Kyron Horman case and the Sky Metalwala case is the person that went missing and presumed dead is an adult. In the other two cases, a child went missing while the parent had care and custody of yet another child. The differentiation between the two is where CPS drew the line for allowing visitation with the POI parent. Ultimately, I still place significant blame on the Utah LE for not sharing the info about what they found on Josh's computer initially. I do understand that LE doesnt want CPS to compromise their murder case (CPS has done that before in other cases), but the law states in cases of child abuse - LE must make efforts to protect the child. Had Washington CPS have this info all along, this case would have been handled much differently IMO.

 

[ThoughtFox]

Correct, they left the boys with him for TWO YEARS and when they couldn't make their case, they moved to that level. His children were completely safe with him for TWO YEARS and would have continued to be had they not done what they did.

No one could possibly know whether those kids would have continued to be safe. The outcome could have been exactly the same even if the kids were left with him. Or they might all have disappeared to some other country. Or any number of things might have happened.

What we have to deal with is what actually happened - the man who was given visitation with his children turned around and killed his children. He didn't do it because he never saw them - he was able to do it because he had visitation in the place of his choice.

Therefore, Josh was able to kill his children and himself because the system was too lenient, not because they were too strict. :cow: Just my opinion only.

As I said, you can make anything be TRUE as you believe.

Those kids are dead at the hand of the own father.

Susan has been missing for years, and Josh was the last one to see her.

Those are facts. Why should anyone dismiss facts?

They certainly did in this case and at the cost of two young boys lives. So, as I said, keep believing that way and continue using kids to "make yourself right". As other posters have said, there is really no way, short of locking JP up, that they could have prevented him from doing what he was going to do. And I will ALWAYS argue that those children were NOT in danger and should not have been removed You keep wanting to err on the safety of the children, well why didn't they then?

Because child *advertiser censored* is illegal? And people who keep that stuff on their computers are often a danger to children?

That seems like erring on the side of keeping children safe.

I'm all for protecting children that have a need to be protected. I DO NOT condone LE or any other agency using children to try to prove their point or taking children from parents and THEN trying to build a case of abuse. For that matter, this whole sexual deviant testing thing, why wasn't that ordered as part of the plan when they were first removed and the children KEPT from him until it was completed?

That's a good question, and I hope we get answers. However, it seems that Josh had lots of time when first Utah then Washington gave him the benefit of the doubt. As a suspect, he was very lucky for a long time. Unfortunately, his own psychology caught up with him - but not quickly enough to save those boys.

Because they knew damn good and well he didn't sexually or otherwise abuse his children. What they didn't know (but really should at this point)is some people push back.

Nobody knows what he said or did to those children. They seem pretty traumatized about losing their mother. Should Josh get a pass on making their mother disappear? That's the only reason we are still talking about him after all these years (or was he before he practiced murder-suicide).