Patsy Ramsey

[noneareworthy]

I think that the Ramseys will always be suspect due to the fact that they went to elaborate extremes to hide information, kept themselves from the types of interrogations all of us would've been required to participate in, were questioned together with prepared questions (isn't the first rule of interrogation to separate the witnesses?), etc etc. had they come clean with whatever it was they were concealing, the case may have been solved years ago--either way (one of them did it or an intruder did it).

 

[DeDee]

That info from Maikai (who promoted an IDI theory) was intriguing.

Had to locate the photo from the film in order to see for myself how this may have related to the brochure photo of JR and his competitors for the Entrepreneur Award. Conjecture here, but it strikes me as very similar to the photo from the 1991 film Ricochet. As noted by DeDee, this photo was being used by a psycho to frame the good guy.

Moo, I also detect the hand of PR in this. Was this an attempt by PR to point to a psycho who was attempting to frame JR? Or was PR attempting to implicate JR in some way? In the interview of JR http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm Lou Smit begins questioning JR about the brochure and then leads into the heart on JB’s hand. JR seems genuinely confused about both the brochure clue and the heart drawn on JB.

My puzzlement about this includes 1) when this marked up brochure was created and placed in the basement, 2) if it was intended to be a “clue”, and 3) if it was some kind of strange “clue”, what the “no, no, no” written upon the photo, plus the heart around JR’s photo, meant to the person who put this “clue” together.

MHO.

Good job on locating Ricochet's image that coincides with the brochure of JR. Only, iirc, the brochure was not found by LE in the basement but it was in John's upstairs bedroom office near his desk.
When asked by LE if JB or PR could have written the message, JR replied emphatically, No! JB could not write it because it was in cursive writing.

Quotes or phrases from these movies may have been [subliminally] referenced in the Ransom Note.

- 1977 - Dirty Harry
- 1986 - Ruthless People
- 1991 - Ricochet
- 1994 - Speed
- 1995 - Nick of Time
- 1995 - Seven
- 1996 - Ransom
- 1996 - Star Trek - First Contact

In days gone by, I adored and will recommend reading O Henry's delightful short story, "The Ransom of Red Chief". The RN was signed "TWO DESPERATE MEN."

http://www.acandyrose.com/ransom-redchief-ransomnote.txt

The Leopold/Loeb/Franks RN was written and mailed after Bobby Franks was killed making the 2nd line a lie: "Allow us to assure you that he is at present well and safe."

http://www.acandyrose.com/leopold-loeb-ransomnote.txt

PMPT; Page 83:

"A bookshelf contained such titles as 'Children at Risk,' 'Children All Wide World Straight Talk,' Tom Clancy's 'Red Storm Rising,' 'It Ain't As Easy As It Looks,' and 'The National Geographic Society Index.' On another shelf; 'The Cancer Conqueror,' 'Incredible Journey to Wellness,' 'New Cures for Almost every Major Disease' and FBI profiler John Douglas's 1995 memoir, 'Mind Hunter.'

On a night table were 'When Goodbye is Forever'; 'How to deal with the Death of a Child' and 'Learning to Live Again after the loss of a Child,' by John Bramblet."

Dr. Seuss' book was inside the Samsonite luggage in the basement.

PR is closely tied to The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie via pageants.

The garrote was formed from Patsy's paintbrush.

It is abundantly clear that, creatively, art, movie scripts and literature were woven into the CS by the mind of the killer. Patsy agreed that whoever wrote the RN also killed her daughter.

 

[Meara]

That quote was taken out of context. IMO

John Ramsey was a Navy Seal??

Why didn't I know that?

"Former FBI agent and expert criminal profiler, Robert Ressler believes that:

JonBenet knew her killer
the killer could have come from a small circle of friends around the Ramsey home in Boulder
the circle would include family, neighbors, and employees of the Ramseys."


http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/it_5.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

"Navy Seal" made me sit up, too, but I don't think it's correct, actually. The article has (other) minor errors, and I cannot find anything online to confirm. Subic Bay was primarily used for military supply, transport and repair..... although if it also had a Seal training and deployment operation, I don't suppose the Navy wouldn't be noising it about! Not factual at all, but JR is not the obvious commando, IMO....

 

[Venom]

Does anyone know if PR was a movie buff?

 

[questfortrue]

Does anyone know if PR was a movie buff?

PR’s reply to Tom Haney (http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-ransomnote.htm)

Tom Haney: "Okay. Now, at our house I am getting the 'Dirty Harry," the James Bond, all of those, and my wife wants to watch 'Sleepless in Seattle." She gets that and I fall asleep. So do you put John to sleep with some of your choices?"

Patsy Ramsey: "No, because I never - I don't think I picked them very much. He and Burke would get them."

Tom Haney: "Where did they get them?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Blockbuster."

Tom Haney: "You know that as far as 'Speed' and 'Dirty Harry,' and i think there is some other movies that even john Andrew had made some mention about the different words, phrases....that some of that stuff seems to come into the ransom note."

Patsy Ramsey: "...I have never seen 'Dirty Harry,' so I don't know."

 

[DeDee]

John graduated Michigan State University, where he received a bachelor's in electrical engineering in 1966 and a master's degree in marketing in 1971.

John enrolled in Officer Cadet School [OCS] in Rhode Island where he left an Ensign. [Reminiscent of an "Officer and a Gentleman"]

"Over the 12 weeks they are immersed in Leadership, Physical and Military training as well as Academics ranging from Navigation to Shipboard Engineering and Damage Control. Their every action is scrutinized and any shortcoming rigorously corrected. There is a strict Code of Honor that is expected; violators are removed."

That's rigorous mental and physical training; not intended for the weak. From OCS in RI, John goes to CA for more training before becoming stationed in the Philippines at Subic Bay for two years working in radio and electronics.

That is a great deal of specialized training but may fall short of being qualified as a Navy Seal.

 

[DeDee]

Does anyone know if PR was a movie buff?

Patsy denies reading books often, denies viewing movies on their home theatre and denies watching television.


TT: All righty. Um, tell me about some of the TV shows you guys watch. You specifically. Uh, say in recent history, last, the last year. What kind of TV shows do you guys watch?


PR: I don’t watch TV much.
 [Deny anything related to the RN.]
TT: Okay.


PR: You guys, who guys?
 [Patsy repeats.]

TT: You, John, Burke.


PR: Burke likes Discovery.
 [Since she already told them she did not watch tv, she tells about BR.]

TT: Okay. Discovery Channel?


PR: He likes the Discovery Channel.


TT: Okay.


PR: And John likes the Weather Channel.


TT: Okay.


PR: He’s a pilot.


TT: Is this a, is that because he’s a pilot?


PR: Yeah. And he watches that, whatever the, you know the thing that runs across the bottom with the stock market . . .


TT: Um hum.


PR: I don’t know what that is.


TT: Okay. What’s the. . .


PR: And he likes old movies.


TT: Okay. What’s the last book you read?


PR: Last book I read?
 [Patsy repeats the question.]

TT: Um hum.


PR: I am reading right now um, “At Home in Medford” by Jan Carran.


TT: Okay. What other kind of books do like to read?


PR: You know, I don’t read a whole lot, because I’m usually so tired by the time I go to bed.


TT: Okay.


PR: Um, uh, I’m just drawing a blank.


TT: Okay. Do you, do you get to the movies at all? Have you been out to see any shows at all?


PR: Oh, I have . . .


TT: I, I know it’s difficult in the last couple of months. . .


PR: Right.


TT: . . .because of, of what’s (inaudible).


PR: Right.


TT: Let’s say before December, what kind of movies have you and John gone out to see?


PR: Well, actually we didn’t go out to movies very much, because we had a home theatre . . .


TT: Okay.


PR: . . .so we would usually we’d see everything about a year after it came out.


TT: Once it came out on video.


PR: Yeah, but we, you know, the kids liked to watch movies up there . . .


TT: Um hum.


PR: . . .we watched “Forrest Gump” and . . .


TT: Do you and John watch movies at all up there?


PR: Uh, yeah, but I usually fall asleep. He, he usually goes, gets the movies and they’re not my favorites and I usually fall asleep.


 

[Meara]

John graduated Michigan State University, where he received a bachelor's in electrical engineering in 1966 and a master's degree in marketing in 1971.

John enrolled in Officer Cadet School [OCS] in Rhode Island where he left an Ensign. [Reminiscent of an "Officer and a Gentleman"]

"Over the 12 weeks they are immersed in Leadership, Physical and Military training as well as Academics ranging from Navigation to Shipboard Engineering and Damage Control. Their every action is scrutinized and any shortcoming rigorously corrected. There is a strict Code of Honor that is expected; violators are removed."

That's rigorous mental and physical training; not intended for the weak. From OCS in RI, John goes to CA for more training before becoming stationed in the Philippines at Subic Bay for two years working in radio and electronics.

That is a great deal of specialized training but may fall short of being qualified as a Navy Seal.

I think you are right, DeDee. SEAL training starts at Warfare Preparatory School in Great Lakes, IL, a location and time frame that doesn't turn up in the JR bios. I'm guessing his engineering degree was more valuable to the USN.

United States Navy SEAL selection and training - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[redheadedgal]

I think you are right, DeDee. SEAL training starts at Warfare Preparatory School in Great Lakes, IL, a location and time frame that doesn't turn up in the JR bios. I'm guessing his engineering degree was more valuable to the USN.

United States Navy SEAL selection and training - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

training evolves over time... the prep school referred to above only opened in 2008: http://usmilitary.about.com/b/2009/03/15/seal-prep-school.htm

i've seen no other reference to his being a seal so i'm of the opinion the reporter got it wrong too.

 

[redheadedgal]

When the FBI allegedly agrees with part of favored theory, then the find FBI credible. When FBI disagrees with pet theory, then FBI not credible.

yes, totally agree. i'm following another case where 3-4 ex-FBI special agents, after studying the evidence, agree wongful convictions have occurred, yet their opinions mean nothing to those who support guilt, but in other cases here on WS, FBI opinions are without a doubt correct.

 

[DeeDee249]

Didn't JonBenet's pediatrician also prescribe medication for Patsy?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes- on more than one occasion. The first was right after JB's death. When police tried to question Patsy at the Fernie's (where they went directly to after leaving their own home on the 26th) Dr. Boef was there administering sedation to Patsy and police were told she was in no shape to speak to them.

 

[redheadedgal]

I thought that a police officer or a DA would request a subpoena from a Judge and it would be up to the Judge to grant the subpoena.

a DA can issue subpoenas -- check google.

the reason ST/BPD did not seek a judge out was answered here: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - phone records

 

[Meara]

training evolves over time... the prep school referred to above only opened in 2008: http://usmilitary.about.com/b/2009/03/15/seal-prep-school.htm

i've seen no other reference to his being a seal so i'm of the opinion the reporter got it wrong too.

Thanks for improving upon my research!

 

[Anti-K]

Hi, AK,
The use of the word assume or presume in your post is the key here. Some here have pointed out a common tendency to interpret clues or behavior to support one’s previously-arrived-at conclusions about the case. Based on individual experiences with psychology, sad exposure to narcissistic parents, or other experiences which help define views, perhaps we all arrive at suppositions not solely on the basis of “reason. “

Here’s a take from Lars-Erik Björklund, a neuroscientist, on something called “tacit knowledge” or disparagingly termed “intuition.”
“A few years ago neuroscientists discovered that the human brain has dual systems for receiving and analyzing sensory impressions, one conscious and one unconscious. In the unconscious, that is the non-declarative system, our sensory impressions are compared with previously stored images. We all have an inner picture book of stored experiences based on what has happened to us previously in life. We also remember the outcome -¬ did it end well or badly? With the aid of these stored sensory impressions, we unconsciously assess the situation at hand and can predict the outcome. This capacity is especially helpful in complex and information-rich situations with a great deal of noise.”

If one presumes a single outside perp, then the experiment from Simons and Chabris and the gorilla won’t carry any significance. OTOH, if one interprets that 2 or 3 Rs were involved in the cause and/or concealment of JB’s death, then the video message about attention becomes very interesting. (E.g., John Douglas focusing only on JR arrives at the conclusion he wasn’t involved. Douglas then does not separately interview or consider Ms. West Virginia or her young son. Douglas’ conclusion is the Rs weren’t involved.)

Since I hadn’t seen the Simons and Chabris video before, I had to try it. While I did witness the correct number of passes, I totally missed the man in the hairy suit. It’s one of the reasons I continue to visit the forum, I keep thinking maybe I didn’t see the guy in the hairy suit (something obvious), and it would point me to more understanding.

In a next post I’ll provide something additional which will, for sure, be interpreted according to one’s perspective. moo

I guess that in the beginning – the first few hours – the presumption should have been that this was a genuine kidnapping, and that more than one person was involved. But, I think the body in the basement, the note written in the house, etc should have gone some ways towards disproving that presumption; so, yes presumption number 2: a single perpetrator. Presumption 2 could also be untrue, but so far it has not been disproven.
Douglas, like everyone is fallible.
.

I don’t know if I would have noticed the gorilla as I had not, ‘til now, seen the video; I’d read of the experiment and I’d seen still photographs and realized what I was going to see as soon as the video started to play.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

Please. Let us remain polite or at least respectful to one another. What information in the Bonita Papers is rumor and not based on fact?

I’m not being rude at all. Everyone should know that The Bonita Papers are controversial and of suspect origin. And, please note that I did not say that they were “based on rumor.”
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

Some interesting comments, most noteably:



I could swear someone recently strongly dismissed another LEOs statement stating the Rs did it b/c they used similar language?



Also IIRC' Douglas also had admitted he had based his decision about the parents based solely on the info provided by the Rs defense team.



I think it's safe to say that RDI believe this completely.



Pretty much sums up how I feel.

Actually what I wrote was: And that Dr. Rau said, “In my heart, this is chronic abuse.” In her heart; please....

But, I have the same response to Douglas saying “in my heart...” Good grief.
.

I think Douglas “decision” was influenced by his expertise and experience as well as by the information provided by the attorneys and the meeting with the Ramseys (however slight it may have been with the Mrs, etc).
.

I agree with McCrary that the evidence does not support an IDI theory of “disgruntled Ramsey employee/revenge on the father.”
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

Remember it had to be the DA who issued the subpoenas, not the BPD. The DA refused. He also refused to get a warrant for the school records, specifically the school nurse, who JB frequently visited on Mondays.
As far as I know, LE has not had access to either set of records. The Rs asked for (and the DA allowed) what their lawyers called "an island of privacy" as to the children's medical records.
The pediatrician also said that he would burn the records rather than turn them over to police. If this doesn't SCREAM "something to hide" I don't know what does. The pediatrician was a personal friend of the Rs, and belonged to the same Country Club. He was said to be very admiring of them and in awe of their wealth and clout. Had there been anything in those records indicating sexual molestation of JB by her brother, he would have been required to report it to police, so if the records had been turned over and police had seen that, the doctor would be liable - could have been prosecuted or even lost his license. So there was a LOT to hide.

Please source the claim that Dr Beuf said that he would burn the records before he would hand them over to the police.
.

A careful review of Dr Beuf’s medical records [by BPD] had given no indication of prior abuse. PMPT; 873

Denver attorney Larry Pozner, president-elect of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, confirmed for the media that the Ramseys had given Hunter’s office medical records and confidential documents that even a grand jury would not be able to obtain. PMPT; p. 1423

BPD’s Det. Harmer interviewed Dr Beuf, his staff and the nurse who had last seen Jonbenet. Beuf appeared before the grand jury.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

That quote was taken out of context. IMO

John Ramsey was a Navy Seal??

Why didn't I know that?

"Former FBI agent and expert criminal profiler, Robert Ressler believes that:

JonBenet knew her killer
the killer could have come from a small circle of friends around the Ramsey home in Boulder
the circle would include family, neighbors, and employees of the Ramseys."


http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/it_5.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, the quote wasn’t taken out of context, but here it is in ever more complete fashion than you provided:

<quote>
the killer could have come from a small circle of friends around the Ramsey home in Boulder
the circle would include family, neighbors, and employees of the Ramseys.
Ressler's analysis is further strengthened by an excerpt from a letter of resignation that Detective Lou Smits, a veteran investigator of 32 years' experience, sent to District Attorney Alex Hunter:
"The case tells me that there is substantial, credible, evidence of an intruder and lack of evidence that the parents are involved." <end quote>

Anyway, Ressler isn’t telling us anything new here. You start your investigation with the parents, then other family, then friends, employees, neighbors, etc...
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

thanks deedee249!
i simply had no idea about the doctor's attitude, he should have been in a lot of trouble with that attitude and the threat to burn his records; seems that he forgot that part of his oath"do not do harm" and that he was meant to report any suspicion of child abuse
another adult who failed JB


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Maybe his attitude is myth. Maybe he locked the records away to keep them from ending up like the autopsy photos. Maybe BPD, and/or the DA and/or the grand jury all saw those records. Without subpoena.
...

AK

 

[pukasonqo2]

what are the "bonita papers" and why are they so controversial?



lupus est homini *advertiser censored*, non *advertiser censored*, non quom qualis sit novit