Patsy Ramsey

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I've never really thought PDI. I've always been more of her helping to stage. I think she wrote the note. But I've been putting a lot of thought into what bluebottle and dedee are saying trying to understand their theories.
 
I've never really thought PDI. I've always been more of her helping to stage. I think she wrote the note. But I've been putting a lot of thought into what bluebottle and dedee are saying trying to understand their theories.

Yes. Very interesting discussion

IA with you regarding PDI, however, those acts are criminal, and the GJ detailed her crimes in horrifying detail.
 
He had nothing to do with anything until Patsy screamed and showed him the note.

He found the body before 11 am and kept quiet. He fake found it a 1 pm and self deluded that Patsy did not do it in favor of victimhood.

He is driven by a sense of guilt; he feels responsible for Beth's death and JohnBenet's and Patsy's mental state probably for using her for his gratification at the cost of looking past her obvious oddities/pathology.

All of this is my opinion.

Gotta go walk the dog.

Thanks for the great questions you two.

Blue Bottle, this is new to me and interesting. Why would he/does he feel responsible for Beth's death? And, what have you observed that persuades you of this? TIA.
 
Blue Bottle, this is new to me and interesting. Why would he/does he feel responsible for Beth's death? And, what have you observed that persuades you of this? TIA.

That is just a typical generality. There is no rhyme or reason to the guilt other than the willing gift of the protected child to another man that fails to protect is resented inward or outward or both. Beseaching a God for answers that does not return a suitable answer leaves the burden with the father. He took it hard, it appears much of his life stopped with her death. An achiever has a failure shadow always.
 
I can see the explanation for John's role, but not Patsy's, according to these theories. How many cases are there where a parent kills a child either for media attention or in a religious frenzy? The obvious ones - Susan Smith and Andrea Yates come to mind. But Andrea was clearly extremely psychotic, and Susan Smith's aim didn't seem to be the media attention so much as freedom. Patsy may have had her oddities, but she didn't seem nearly unstable enough to become that frenzied. Mothers who kill their children in a religious frenzy seem to have been noticeably crazy for some time, even if no one suspected them of violence. That's not the kind of crazy you can hide, even if you try. And I don't think she could even have conceived of the fame that resulted if that was the motive.

Thinking about this, I actually find it shocking that more parents have not been found to have killed their children purely for the attention of the story (a fake kidnapping or missing child, or a staged murder). The media has so changed since then, and the JonBenet story really changed the coverage of such cases. I could see someone looking at that story and deciding to do something similar, because now it's guaranteed to garner attention. But for all the parents who kill children out there, it almost always seems to be negligence, psychosis, rage, or total depression mixed with the desire for freedom. As much as people crave fame and will do the worst things to accomplish it, no one has tried this tactic, or at least none I can think of.

ETA: There have been a few cases where parents, usually men, kill the whole family for fame, sympathy, or money, but not one child or without targeting the spouse/ex-spouse.
 
Patsy was not in a religious frenzy. You invented a scenario and criticized your own invention. Her motive wasn't fame either. IMO.
 
I can see the explanation for John's role, but not Patsy's, according to these theories. How many cases are there where a parent kills a child either for media attention or in a religious frenzy? The obvious ones - Susan Smith and Andrea Yates come to mind. But Andrea was clearly extremely psychotic, and Susan Smith's aim didn't seem to be the media attention so much as freedom. Patsy may have had her oddities, but she didn't seem nearly unstable enough to become that frenzied. Mothers who kill their children in a religious frenzy seem to have been noticeably crazy for some time, even if no one suspected them of violence. That's not the kind of crazy you can hide, even if you try. And I don't think she could even have conceived of the fame that resulted if that was the motive.

Thinking about this, I actually find it shocking that more parents have not been found to have killed their children purely for the attention of the story (a fake kidnapping or missing child, or a staged murder). The media has so changed since then, and the JonBenet story really changed the coverage of such cases. I could see someone looking at that story and deciding to do something similar, because now it's guaranteed to garner attention. But for all the parents who kill children out there, it almost always seems to be negligence, psychosis, rage, or total depression mixed with the desire for freedom. As much as people crave fame and will do the worst things to accomplish it, no one has tried this tactic, or at least none I can think of.

ETA: There have been a few cases where parents, usually men, kill the whole family for fame, sympathy, or money, but not one child or without targeting the spouse/ex-spouse.

What do you mean by "JonBenet's case changed the coverage of these cases"? Do you have any examples?

I find it interesting that the only high-profile missing/murdered children cases between 1997 and 2000 are Sabrina Aisenberg and the British Nanny case. It doesn't seem like JonBenet's case sparked an immediate trend, and the media was running around, trying to figure out other similar cases to make into a circus. It would not surprise me if JonBenet's case prevented other cases in the late 90s from getting more national attention.

ETA: For example, there were two little girls who went missing after getting off their bus in 1997. The case barely got national coverage. The day it happened? The same day the Ramseys held their May 1st press conference.
 
I feel the same. although I don't think she committed this crime purposely for the drama & attention, more like once the spotlight was turned on she saw it as the performance of a lifetime, and through it, she could convience us she was innocent.

ITA. With her narcissistic personality she took the spotlight ultimately offered her. And went to her grave believing she had convinced us all.
 
I've never really thought PDI. I've always been more of her helping to stage. I think she wrote the note. But I've been putting a lot of thought into what bluebottle and dedee are saying trying to understand their theories.

I always thought PDI or BDI. I have never been a JDI. I'm not sure I can articulate all the reasons. Like this case overall, we can only weigh the evidence, both forensic and circumstantial, and some of us find great weight in areas others do not. .

As an example, I have never found the fact that Patsy wore the same clothes again to mean anything, one way or the other. Others find that to be part of the circumstantial evidence. OTOH, I have always believed that the behavior of John and Patsy to one another that morning to be almost as strong as their failure to cooperate. Others write it off as not important.

We all look at the evidence through our own prisms and I think that is what may fascinate so much about this case after all these years.

I generally find good arguments in most RDI's theories, including those that favor JDI. There are many very well informed and interesting arguments on this board, IMO.
 
I can see the explanation for John's role, but not Patsy's, according to these theories. How many cases are there where a parent kills a child either for media attention or in a religious frenzy? The obvious ones - Susan Smith and Andrea Yates come to mind. But Andrea was clearly extremely psychotic, and Susan Smith's aim didn't seem to be the media attention so much as freedom. Patsy may have had her oddities, but she didn't seem nearly unstable enough to become that frenzied. Mothers who kill their children in a religious frenzy seem to have been noticeably crazy for some time, even if no one suspected them of violence. That's not the kind of crazy you can hide, even if you try. And I don't think she could even have conceived of the fame that resulted if that was the motive
ETA: There have been a few cases where parents, usually men, kill the whole family for fame, sympathy, or money, but not one child or without targeting the spouse/ex-spouse.

Also those who kill for a weirdo religious frenzy or some sort of reality break tend to confess...can't stay quiet. I think it's something else...though I still don't have a theory that works for me.
 
What do you mean by "JonBenet's case changed the coverage of these cases"? Do you have any examples?

I find it interesting that the only high-profile missing/murdered children cases between 1997 and 2000 are Sabrina Aisenberg and the British Nanny case. It doesn't seem like JonBenet's case sparked an immediate trend, and the media was running around, trying to figure out other similar cases to make into a circus. It would not surprise me if JonBenet's case prevented other cases in the late 90s from getting more national attention.

ETA: For example, there were two little girls who went missing after getting off their bus in 1997. The case barely got national coverage. The day it happened? The same day the Ramseys held their May 1st press conference.

I think the comment about "changed the coverage of these cases," is about how this became instant national news, with long-term, ongoing sensationalized coverage.

Of course it wasn't the first case to do this, but it is one of the more recent ones. Her death happened right before the explosion of the internet, and the 24 hour news cycle, which began to emphasize "tabloid" type journalism.

The fact that the main suspects pushed themselves before the national spotlight, and that it has never been solved have also influenced the way similar cases are now covered.

As for the "doing it for fame", concept, I don't think that's what was meant in a literal sense. Like I posted earlier, it was more a result of given the "opportunity for fame," the Rs grabbed at it with both hands.

How many other cases have there been where the parents made going before a national audience a priority over cooperating with LE, while dramatizing their daughter's death by labeling her "America's Princess," and intentionally fudging her date of death to make a statement?

That's my belief anyway :)
 
I can see the explanation for John's role, but not Patsy's, according to these theories. How many cases are there where a parent kills a child either for media attention or in a religious frenzy? The obvious ones - Susan Smith and Andrea Yates come to mind. But Andrea was clearly extremely psychotic, and Susan Smith's aim didn't seem to be the media attention so much as freedom. Patsy may have had her oddities, but she didn't seem nearly unstable enough to become that frenzied. Mothers who kill their children in a religious frenzy seem to have been noticeably crazy for some time, even if no one suspected them of violence. That's not the kind of crazy you can hide, even if you try. And I don't think she could even have conceived of the fame that resulted if that was the motive.

Thinking about this, I actually find it shocking that more parents have not been found to have killed their children purely for the attention of the story (a fake kidnapping or missing child, or a staged murder). The media has so changed since then, and the JonBenet story really changed the coverage of such cases. I could see someone looking at that story and deciding to do something similar, because now it's guaranteed to garner attention. But for all the parents who kill children out there, it almost always seems to be negligence, psychosis, rage, or total depression mixed with the desire for freedom. As much as people crave fame and will do the worst things to accomplish it, no one has tried this tactic, or at least none I can think of.

ETA: There have been a few cases where parents, usually men, kill the whole family for fame, sympathy, or money, but not one child or without targeting the spouse/ex-spouse.

There's no way to know which of these cases the media will pick up on and make a spectacle of. I don't think Patsy Ramsey, for example, really wanted attention for being a murder suspect. The guy that killed Versace was looking for fame.
 
There's no way to know which of these cases the media will pick up on and make a spectacle of. I don't think Patsy Ramsey, for example, really wanted attention for being a murder suspect. The guy that killed Versace was looking for fame.

I agree. There are so many cases that seem to fit what the media looks for, are very sensational, and never become a huge circus.
 
The presumption is that trace evidence found in incriminating locations are the result of transfer during the most recent contact with those areas. Presumption is that which must be disproved, it is that which is assumed to be true because in most cases it is true. If your DNA is found commingled in the blood and on the inside crotch of a sexual assault victim’s panties then you are the one who is going to have some explaining to do!

IDI don’t; use the DNA as proof that an intruder committed this crime. We use it as one piece of a body of evidence that excludes the Ramseys and includes an intruder.
...

AK

And what is the other evidence in the "body of evidence" that the rest of IDI's use? Not to be facetious, but it seems as though the rest of the evidence by IDIs is explained away by theory.
 
Reporters follow the Big Stories wherever it may take them.

IE, Greta Van Susteren became friends with Beth Holloway in the summer of 2005 when Beth's daughter, Natalee, went missing on May 31 while visiting the island of Aruba with fellow AL classmates.

Greta's desk was a beach chair parked in the sand in Aruba for weeks while the intensive search was conducted for Natalee.

Greta's Fox News team, and many others, did extensive research for the purpose of locating the missing Miss Natalee Holloway.

Beth was overjoyed with the media's exposure and showed much appreciation and participated in searches herself in hopes of leaving the island with her daughter.

Greta told Beth: One day, I will leave. The media will go on to the next story.

On July 7, 2005, Greta made that call to Beth to inform her that there was a bombing in London's subway and her news team was being sent to London asap.


Interview w/Greta posted 5/17/14 at 11:03 am

http://gretawire.foxnewsinsider.com/video/video-what-i-saw-in-natalee-holloways-hotel-room/


Something that never made sense to me was in June of 2007, Beth Holloway was dating John Ramsey.

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20041390,00.html
 
And what is the other evidence in the "body of evidence" that the rest of IDI's use? Not to be facetious, but it seems as though the rest of the evidence by IDIs is explained away by theory.

Sorry, I missed this post.

Some of the body of evidence that supports the IDI position:
the ransom note. Yes, that’s right. I realize that you and many RDI are convinced that Mrs Ramsey wrote the note, but some RDI think that Mr Ramsey wrote the note. You guys can’t even convince each other, you’re certainly not going to convince me, and, neither belief has been confirmed by any of the credible experts. As far as we are concerned the author remains unidentified.

The ransom note contradicts the body in the house. People report (fake) kidnappings only after a body has been disposed of. In fact, it is the disposal that causes the killer to make such a report – they need to explain why so-and-so is missing. In such a case a ransom note would make sense and a ransom note would point suspicion elsewhere. But, Jonbenet was not missing; she had not been disposed of.

If RDI, the ransom note becomes nonsensical, contradictory, and unnecessarily self-incriminating.

The nature of the crime and cause(s) of death. There are some people who are capable of committing these acts upon a child; some of those people are parents. However, we have no evidence (behavioral, familial, etc), despite massive investigation, to show that these parents were capable of performing these acts upon this child. In fact, the evidence (behavioral, familial, etc) contradicts the claim.

No identified motivation to explain the nature of the crime and the cause(s) of death.

No evidence of forcible entry; locked doors. If the Ramseys wanted investigators to believe that someone came into their home and murdered their child then they needed to provide an entry/exit point – an unlocked door, at least. Instead, they made their imaginary intruder’s entry appear a mystery; more than a mystery: unlikely. This contradicts their supposed intent.

The body is hidden in the basement and not disposed of, nor in a place that might indicate that it was going to be disposed of (trunk of car; garage, etc) which contradicts the (fake) kidnapping.

There is trace evidence. Trace evidence of the exact kind and in the exact locations that we might expect to find if an intruder had committed this crime (fibers, hair – on the tape, the ligatures, in the hands, in the genital area, etc). Could they have innocent explanations? Sure. Was effort put into finding those innocent explanations? Yes. Were any found? So far: no.

There are items seemingly brought into the home, and there are items seemingly removed from the home (but, items that could incriminate the parents were not removed!!!).

There is more, but the point is made; now we can add tDNA and the CODIS DNA – three matched samples on two pieces of clothing.

Yes, you can try to explain away what you like by theory, but so can I.
...

AK
 
Sorry, I missed this post.

Some of the body of evidence that supports the IDI position:
the ransom note. Yes, that’s right. I realize that you and many RDI are convinced that Mrs Ramsey wrote the note, but some RDI think that Mr Ramsey wrote the note. You guys can’t even convince each other, you’re certainly not going to convince me, and, neither belief has been confirmed by any of the credible experts. As far as we are concerned the author remains unidentified.

The ransom note contradicts the body in the house. People report (fake) kidnappings only after a body has been disposed of. In fact, it is the disposal that causes the killer to make such a report – they need to explain why so-and-so is missing. In such a case a ransom note would make sense and a ransom note would point suspicion elsewhere. But, Jonbenet was not missing; she had not been disposed of.

If RDI, the ransom note becomes nonsensical, contradictory, and unnecessarily self-incriminating.

The nature of the crime and cause(s) of death. There are some people who are capable of committing these acts upon a child; some of those people are parents. However, we have no evidence (behavioral, familial, etc), despite massive investigation, to show that these parents were capable of performing these acts upon this child. In fact, the evidence (behavioral, familial, etc) contradicts the claim.

No identified motivation to explain the nature of the crime and the cause(s) of death.

No evidence of forcible entry; locked doors. If the Ramseys wanted investigators to believe that someone came into their home and murdered their child then they needed to provide an entry/exit point – an unlocked door, at least. Instead, they made their imaginary intruder’s entry appear a mystery; more than a mystery: unlikely. This contradicts their supposed intent.

The body is hidden in the basement and not disposed of, nor in a place that might indicate that it was going to be disposed of (trunk of car; garage, etc) which contradicts the (fake) kidnapping.

There is trace evidence. Trace evidence of the exact kind and in the exact locations that we might expect to find if an intruder had committed this crime (fibers, hair – on the tape, the ligatures, in the hands, in the genital area, etc). Could they have innocent explanations? Sure. Was effort put into finding those innocent explanations? Yes. Were any found? So far: no.

There are items seemingly brought into the home, and there are items seemingly removed from the home (but, items that could incriminate the parents were not removed!!!).

There is more, but the point is made; now we can add tDNA and the CODIS DNA – three matched samples on two pieces of clothing.

Yes, you can try to explain away what you like by theory, but so can I.
...

AK

RANSOM NOTE: Ubowski stated there were indications that PR wrote the note. He is a certified member of the American Board of Forensic Document Examiners and was the CBI lab agent in charge on the case. Speckin couldn't rule her out as the author and stated "there was only an infinitesimal chance that some random intruder would have handwriting characteristics so remarkably similar to those of a parent sleeping upstairs." He is forensic document analyst and is also a certified member of the American Board of Forensic Document Examiners. Epstein claimed he was "absolutely certain" that PR was the author of the note. He served as president for the American Society of Questioned Document Examiners and was deemed qualified by the court to testify. Both Rile and Cunningham (hired by the Ramseys) couldn't eliminate her either. Experts disagree on whether or not she wrote the note. Therefore, you are incorrect. The belief HAS been confirmed by experts deemed credible by the court.

CONTRADICTION OF NOTE: The ransom note was an explanation for their missing daughter. It gave the parents the incentive to point the finger outside of the home. Without the RN you'd be left with 3 family members in the home with a dead child in their basement and no where to cast suspicion. The way the Ramsey's repeatedly bounced around "who done it" only proves my point further. If IDI, why would the Ramsey's call over the Whites the second they found their daughter missing when they would soon turn them in as suspects? These were people they called after finding their daughter "kidnapped by a foreign fraction" yet, they would soon turn their backs on the friends they trusted enough to ignore the ransom notes warning? Where would they dispose of her? I couldn't see anyone logically risking that when living in such close proximities to neighbors and dogs.

If an intruder wrote the note, what was the motivation? Not money. Not kidnapping. So what's the point of the note? It would be nonsensical for an intruder to write the note. Obviously the note wasn't "self incriminating" considering you just said no credible experts could identify her as the author...

BEHAVIOR OF PARENTS: Actually, Linda (Housekeeper) said she believed PR suffered from "multiple personalities" and stated "She'd be in a good mood and then she'd be cranky. She got into arguments with JonBenet about wearing a dress or about a friend coming over. I had never seen Patsy so upset." This finding in addition to the extreme amount of stress that the holidays cause is significant. John also had his fair share of oddity. When Beth died in a car accident he was reported to have been heard "crying and wailing" in the middle of the night and kept pictures of her everywhere. But when his young daughter is murdered in his own home he tells CNN that he is not angry with the killer and believes they deserve forgiveness. I've never read anything about the parents that contradicted the idea that they either had a part in the murder or covered it up. Care to elaborate?

MOTIVATION: I don't believe it was premeditated. I think Patsy snapped and attempted to cover it up. The repeated religious affirmations are striking as well IMO. I believe that she convinced herself that she had done nothing wrong by her religion and relied on faith throughout her life to fix problems. I'm in no way saying that's the wrong way to live, I just think she found comfort in her sins through the faith she had depended on for healing. In addition, many IDI's have tried to ignore the fact that PR answered the door wearing the same clothes from the night before as normal. But, in DOI she said "I remember my mothers words, Never leave the house without your makeup. Plus we are going to be with Melinda's fiancé, Stewart, so I want to make a good impression." So she decided to apply a fresh face of makeup that morning, but put on the same dirty clothes and not shower in preparation to meet with Melinda's finace? This is just an example of her statements contradicting one another.

POINT OF ENTRY: Early on the window was deemed the point of entry by the Ramseys, Smit, etc... When that fell through, attention turned to various points of entry like the butler door or someone with a key. John Ramsey told police on the morning of December 26th that he had checked the locks on the doors and windows the previous night. Later he denied ever saying this and claimed he didn't check the locks. Why the change in story? He also later claimed to have found the window in the basement open and that he had pulled it closed. JR: I said, you know, this window’s broken, but I think I broke it last summer. It just hasn’t been fixed. And it was opened, but I closed it earlier and we got down on the floor and looked around for some glass just to be sure that it hadn’t been broken again. They came up with numerous possible points of entry, but none that were deemed the definite way the intruder entered the home. But boy did they try!

Again where would they dispose of the body at? Where would they have gotten a spare car trunk that wouldn't be linked back to them? They lived close enough to neighbors that they reported seeing the lights on in the home. How would anyone have taken a body (or entered the home for that matter) without being seen or heard? Not to mention there were dogs in the neighborhood. How would anyone have gotten past them as well without alerting them?

I won't get into the trace evidence argument because you already know where I stand on that, but I will say something I was thinking about earlier. The duct tape on JB's mouth had her lips imprinted leading us to believe that she was already passed when it was placed on her. The tape would have more than likely been torn off of the roll and placed directly on her mouth without problem which leaving little room for innocent fiber transfer from the floor, JB's clothing, etc... This only furthers my problem with the fact that fibers from the sweater PR wore the night of the murder ended up on the sticky side of the tape innocently.

That's true, however I think it's important to include that black duct tape was found on the backside of paintings in the home and a receipt was found from December with items matching the cost of the duct tape. In Thomas's book he discusses the discovery that the cord used in the murder could have been bought from a store close to JR. I don't have my book on me, but feel free to look it up!

Both IDI and RDI have their theories and explanations. I hope you don't take anything I've said as mean! I enjoy discussion about the case because it helps point out holes I've left in my own theory and opens my eyes to others thoughts surrounding the case.
 

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