Penn State Sandusky Trial #10

[jabberwocky]

:rocker: Sums it up quite nicely....the showers, the basement and the hotels could be the one line in closing argument that trumps everything else.

Let's not forget in addition to the "showers,"the basement", "the hotels"..........
the "blowing on the stomach", the "love letters", the "stalking", the "gifts", the "threats", the "back cracking", the "sleepovers"

 

[PHB]

Very good article posted by Reader.
I was thinking today about how many people's lives have been effected by Jerry Sandusky. Firstly, his victims, of course. Then the parents/gaurdians and social workers of the victims, who thought they were sending their boys off to someone who would be a good male role model, something lacking from their lives. They, along with the staff at The Second Mile, must be sick with grief over this. I read somewhere, I don't remember if it was here or in the press, someone referring to The Second Mile as a "victim factory".
Also the paid employess who were laid off when the charity closed. Then we have the Paterno and Sandusky families (except Dottie; I don't buy that she had no idea her husband of 46 years liked little boys), Joe and Jerry both have sons involved in colleigate or professional sports; I can't see this helping thier careers. Curley and Schultz, even if they avoid prison, their names will be mud in Pennsylvania for the rest of their lives. And let's not forget Mike Mcqueary, who will forever be known as the guy who walked in on a little boy getting raped, and didn't try to stop it.
That's a lot of wreckage.
JMO

 

[ChickenPants]

Sandusky trial testimony of boys without fathers in their lives strikes nerve on Father’s Day

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/sports/54318682-68/sandusky-alleged-testified-victim.html.csp

..........The young men who testified last week said Sandusky started out by taking them to work out on Penn State’s campus and that their mothers gave their permission, thinking it’d be good for their sons to spend some time with a man who was well-respected in the community as both an activist for kids through The Second Mile and a popular defensive coach for the Nittany Lions.

Experts say predators work to groom the families of their victims as much as they work to groom their victims for abuse.

"These single mothers, these parents, were essentially conditioned to believe that they were making good parenting decisions by turning their children over to The Second Mile and Jerry," said State College attorney Andrew Shubin, who is representing alleged victims No. 3 and No. 7 with another local attorney, Justine Andronici..............

"They want to speak out and tell someone, but they don’t know who to turn to, and if the abuser is the only person in their life who is giving them any form of positive attention, oftentimes the options appear to the child to be put up with the pain, or walk away and suffer even worse deprivation and loneliness," said Chris Anderson, the executive director of the sex abuse survivor advocacy organization Male Survivor.

More at link.....

Thanks a lot for this. I have the knee-jerk reaction against parents and caregivers, and had never considered this aspect. It's so tragic in this case that no professional expert testimony is allowed regarding these things. A victory for these young men IN SPITE OF that will be even better.

Are people going to learn from this or not, I wonder? Even if parents become hyper-vigilant, the pervasiveness of this kind of crime seems almost uncontrollable because it seeps everywhere that a child would be. You can't go around suspecting everybody but it is like terrorisim....what is the best way to deal with it? I do with the government (state and federal) would get involved and PUSH to have more punitive measures taken against child abusers and pedophiles. Since they are everywhere.

 

[ChickenPants]

Very good article posted by Reader.
I was thinking today about how many people's lives have been effected by Jerry Sandusky. Firstly, his victims, of course. Then the parents/gaurdians and social workers of the victims, who thought they were sending their boys off to someone who would be a good male role model, something lacking from their lives. They, along with the staff at The Second Mile, must be sick with grief over this. I read somewhere, I don't remember if it was here or in the press, someone referring to The Second Mile as a "victim factory".
Also the paid employess who were laid off when the charity closed. Then we have the Paterno and Sandusky families (except Dottie; I don't buy that she had no idea her husband of 46 years liked little boys), Joe and Jerry both have sons involved in colleigate or professional sports; I can't see this helping thier careers. Curley and Schultz, even if they avoid prison, their names will be mud in Pennsylvania for the rest of their lives. And let's not forget Mike Mcqueary, who will forever be known as the guy who walked in on a little boy getting raped, and didn't try to stop it.
That's a lot of wreckage.
JMO

GREAT POINT. I'm thinking also...all of the above is precisely why, IMO, none of these people had the courage to go the "extra mile" (how sad is that term now relative to "Second Mile") in reporting or stopping it...because each was afraid that this would happen to them. That's exactly why mandatory reporting should extend to anybody who is with a child anywhere. It must be changed so that the benefit of the doubt is always given to the child.

So much is debated about right to privacy, right to this and right to that. Interesting that the people screaming for their "rights" are usually offenders of some kind, IMO. Generally, if people are law-abiding and have nothing to hide, they don't worry about the possibiliites of being scrutinized.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Defense's motion for expert rebuttal:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/120615_Sandusky_Disorder_Motion.pdf


Judge John Cleland ordered that Sandusky would also have to be available for a psychiatric examination by a prosecution expert. It wasn't immediately clear whether the examination would delay the trial, but as of late Friday afternoon, court was still scheduled to resume Monday at 9 a.m. ET after prosecutors presented their case this week.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...has-psychiatric-disorder?lite&ocid=ansmsnbc11

I think this can only be offered in rebuttal. If Amendola doesn't call an expert, the AG's Office can't use it.

 

[BigCat]

Thanks a lot for this. I have the knee-jerk reaction against parents and caregivers, and had never considered this aspect. It's so tragic in this case that no professional expert testimony is allowed regarding these things. A victory for these young men IN SPITE OF that will be even better.

Are people going to learn from this or not, I wonder? Even if parents become hyper-vigilant, the pervasiveness of this kind of crime seems almost uncontrollable because it seeps everywhere that a child would be. You can't go around suspecting everybody but it is like terrorisim....what is the best way to deal with it? I do with the government (state and federal) would get involved and PUSH to have more punitive measures taken against child abusers and pedophiles. Since they are everywhere.

Actually children with hyper-vigilant fathers are safe. In nature, a gazelle doesn't have to be the fastest to survive. He only needs to be faster than the slowest gazelle because predators target the weakest prey. In cases of pedophilia, predators target children with absent or inattentive fathers.

Now a single mother could be hyper-vigilant and her child is not safe, I would agree with that statement. Children naturally desire a father figure. We can pass all the laws we want but we can't change human nature.

 

[ChickenPants]

Actually children with hyper-vigilant fathers are safe. In nature, a gazelle doesn't have to be the fastest to survive. He only needs to be faster than the slowest gazelle because predators target the weakest prey. In cases of pedophilia, predators target children with absent or inattentive fathers.

Now a single mother could be hyper-vigilant and her child is not safe, I would agree with that statement. Children naturally desire a father figure. We can pass all the laws we want but we can't change human nature.

I raised 2 boys with the father absent, and I was a panther....and very lucky. But even in the perfect family situation I think the key is communication. First you have to be involved and then be vigilant.

 

[Reader]

Jerry Sandusky Trial:[Prosecution] Psychologist Will Examine Sandusky, According To Report

http://pittsburgh.sbnation.com/penn...ychologist-will-examine-sandusky-according-to

CNN is reporting that Jerry Sandusky will be undergoing an examination from a prosecution psychologist on Sunday. The examination comes after a court order issued Friday that allows the defense to use testimony on whether Sandusky suffers from a psychological disorder.

Sandusky's lawyers claim that the content of letters sent to some of the alleged victims comes from a Histronic Personality Disorder,...................

The prosecution claims that the letters were used as "grooming techniques" that are frequently used by sexual predators.

Little more at link....

 

[Reader]

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/06/17/justice/pennsylvania-sandusky-trial/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

Judge John Cleland issued an order on Friday granting the defense motion, under one condition: that Sandusky "make himself available to (prosecutors) for the purpose of preparing rebuttal psychological/psychiatric testimony."

More at link....

 

[Quiche]

Summarily, as disgusting and reprehensible as it is, there are more that 2 potential body fluids involved here...

respectfully snipped

I count three. Hygiene indeed.

Let's not forget in addition to the "showers,"the basement", "the hotels"..........
the "blowing on the stomach", the "love letters", the "stalking", the "gifts", the "threats", the "back cracking", the "sleepovers"

...and "the front seat of the car," and "swimming," and "soap," and "wrestling."

Shoot, how many more that we're not aware of? Probably tons. Oh, let's not forget the "asterisks" next to their names! grrrrr

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Article on what the defense can do:

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/06/jerry_sandusky_trial_prosecuti_1.html

 

[Quiche]

Jerry Sandusky Trial:[Prosecution] Psychologist Will Examine Sandusky, According To Report

http://pittsburgh.sbnation.com/penn...ychologist-will-examine-sandusky-according-to

CNN is reporting that Jerry Sandusky will be undergoing an examination from a prosecution psychologist on Sunday. The examination comes after a court order issued Friday that allows the defense to use testimony on whether Sandusky suffers from a psychological disorder.

Sandusky's lawyers claim that the content of letters sent to some of the alleged victims comes from a Histronic Personality Disorder,...................

The prosecution claims that the letters were used as "grooming techniques" that are frequently used by sexual predators.

Little more at link....

Ha! Enjoy your last Father's Day at home, Jerry! After you attempt to snow the professional for a few hours, I'm sure Dottie will have baked you a cake or something.

Remember Casey A.'s impromptu psyche evaluation? I think these "get a diagnosis during a criminal court procedure" moves are as transparent as they can be... but, I full on approve of Sandusky spending this Sunday trying to get around the incredible damage is "fathering" style inflicted on so many.

Go for it, Jer, you're not as accomplished as you've been made to believe. They were all looking the other way, that's what allowed you this perversion, now, however, everyone is looking directly at you... and you're sunk. imo

:jail:

 

[ThoughtFox]

Growing up, my father was definitely the over-protective "constant vigilance" type. I actually hated him for it and thought he was too strict because I was convinced that everyone else in the world was having more fun. But I was innocent and knew nothing about evil, and my father was wise.

For instance, my aunt was always dropping her grandchildren off at the rollerskate rink on Saturday afternoon and my Dad wouldn't let us go, which caused more than one tantrum at our house. Of course years later I realized that that's where my cousins probably took their first drugs and learned how to smoke, and met their boyfriends from hell. Now I look back and realize how much trouble we could have gotten into if our father hadn't been strict! He's no longer with us *sniff* but I often wish I could be that wise.

And my husband is just as protective of his children, so I'm lucky that way, too. You can't be too careful these days. Some parents invite kids to stay over at their homes for days at a time, but we were always suspicious of that. We had a policy that we needed to know a family for at least a year before we'd let our kids spend the night, and even then things can happen.

My heart breaks for these victims who just wanted a father-figure - anyone who would take an interest in them. That's the evil of Jerry, the predatory father-substitute. He's every parents' nightmare!

 

[jabberwocky]

"It’s yet unclear if Sandusky will meet the criteria for diagnosis and if it will help his defense at all. Carol Bernstein, a psychiatry professor at New York University’s Langone Medical Center, who isn’t involved with the Sandusky trial, told ABC News that “if someone exhibits sexually inappropriate behavior and that’s all they have out of the several characteristics, that’s not a personality disorder. Any sexual predator exhibits sexually inappropriate behavior.”

Another challenge for the defense may be that the validity of the disorder itself is suspect. The DSM is undergoing an overhaul, and experts working on the manual’s revision have recommended that histrionic personality disorder be eliminated as a standalone diagnosis." :waitasec:


http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2012/06/15/sandusky-defense-looks-to-histrionic-disorder/

 

[ChickenPants]

"It’s yet unclear if Sandusky will meet the criteria for diagnosis and if it will help his defense at all. Carol Bernstein, a psychiatry professor at New York University’s Langone Medical Center, who isn’t involved with the Sandusky trial, told ABC News that “if someone exhibits sexually inappropriate behavior and that’s all they have out of the several characteristics, that’s not a personality disorder. Any sexual predator exhibits sexually inappropriate behavior.”

Another challenge for the defense may be that the validity of the disorder itself is suspect. The DSM is undergoing an overhaul, and experts working on the manual’s revision have recommended that histrionic personality disorder be eliminated as a standalone diagnosis." :waitasec:


http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2012/06/15/sandusky-defense-looks-to-histrionic-disorder/

What is SO FRUSTRATING is that prosecution cannot use the expert testimony which clears so much up....or can they.....because defense is opening that door by introducing the Histrionic card in the first place. So, does prohibition against defense using "expert WITNESSES" also include rebutting by using statistics or information related? One possible thing they can do is get a backlog of case laws where previous pedophiles were convicted and tried to use this disorder (or a similar one) and were shot down?

But then I don't know if they can reference case law during testimony, can they? Certainly they can use a whole arsenal at the closing argument.

I'm hoping also that some, or a lot, of the jurors aren't deaf, dumb and blind to information about pedophiles. Pedophilia is so rampant now that more people than ever are aware of the "grooming" aspects and what victims have endured and so on....they may not need an expert to inform what they know already. I can't believe that any of them will really think those boys were in a normal frame of mind to keep going back. There's usually some speculation about witnesses who cry and get emotional, etc., whether it is faked or not. Every commentator I have heard is adamnant that the behaviors of these witnesses was real and was very uncomfortable to watch. The jury members are their own "commentators" but they are just quiet until deliberations. Then we shall see.

 

[ChickenPants]

Growing up, my father was definitely the over-protective "constant vigilance" type. I actually hated him for it and thought he was too strict because I was convinced that everyone else in the world was having more fun. But I was innocent and knew nothing about evil, and my father was wise.

For instance, my aunt was always dropping her grandchildren off at the rollerskate rink on Saturday afternoon and my Dad wouldn't let us go, which caused more than one tantrum at our house. Of course years later I realized that that's where my cousins probably took their first drugs and learned how to smoke, and met their boyfriends from hell. Now I look back and realize how much trouble we could have gotten into if our father hadn't been strict! He's no longer with us *sniff* but I often wish I could be that wise.

And my husband is just as protective of his children, so I'm lucky that way, too. You can't be too careful these days. Some parents invite kids to stay over at their homes for days at a time, but we were always suspicious of that. We had a policy that we needed to know a family for at least a year before we'd let our kids spend the night, and even then things can happen.

My heart breaks for these victims who just wanted a father-figure - anyone who would take an interest in them. That's the evil of Jerry, the predatory father-substitute. He's every parents' nightmare!

Same situation with my parents but I grew up in the more liberal culture, and for me, things were filed away for future use. I was willing to accompany sons to roller rink but at the same time knew they didn't necessarily want mom tagging along. So I had to work on badgering them and educating them about the specifics of dangers, how they would occur, and what it could do to them for life.

Of course every young person thinks it will never happen to them. The strict vs. reasonable has to have a middle ground. What I tried to do was stress that they were intelligent, could make informed choices, and that I really, really trusted they would not make the wrong ones. Nothing gives a guarantee.

Ideally you will have a strong father-figure to guard them. The sick thing is that as you say, Sandusky himself was literally THE father figure to these kids. I am still upset about the mother who told the victim to go back when he didn't want to go. Let's face it, in today's society there are more than enough mothers - or parents - who are anxious for everybody to raise their kids except themselves.

 

[ChickenPants]

Ha! Enjoy your last Father's Day at home, Jerry! After you attempt to snow the professional for a few hours, I'm sure Dottie will have baked you a cake or something.

Remember Casey A.'s impromptu psyche evaluation? I think these "get a diagnosis during a criminal court procedure" moves are as transparent as they can be... but, I full on approve of Sandusky spending this Sunday trying to get around the incredible damage is "fathering" style inflicted on so many.

Go for it, Jer, you're not as accomplished as you've been made to believe. They were all looking the other way, that's what allowed you this perversion, now, however, everyone is looking directly at you... and you're sunk. imo

:jail:

We can imagine the jury will be wise to these maneuvers, but they are compelled to take EVERYTHING they see and hear into deliberations. I keep reminding myself that it is the defense's responsibility to mount a vigorous defense, even if it seems ridiculous. If a Judge lets it in, there it is.

 

[Reader]

We can imagine the jury will be wise to these maneuvers, but they are compelled to take EVERYTHING they see and hear into deliberations. I keep reminding myself that it is the defense's responsibility to mount a vigorous defense, even if it seems ridiculous. If a Judge lets it in, there it is.

If the defense does use the testimony/evidence from their expert, the prosecution will be able to rebut with their own....JS is being examined by the prosecution expert today in preparation for this.

 

[Reader]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/06/1...oxnews/national+(Internal+-+US+Latest+-+Text)

............The defense has sought to show how the stories of accusers have changed over time, that they were prodded and coached by investigators and prosecutors, that some are motivated to lie by the hopes of a civil lawsuit jackpot, and to paint Sandusky's interactions with children as misunderstood and part of a lifelong effort to help, rather than victimize them.

............"This is all standard procedure for building a reasonable doubt defense," said Harris, who has worked as a defense lawyer and prosecutor. "What they don't have here is any way to say, 'OK, these kids have been molested, but somebody else did it.'"

...........During jury selection Sandusky's lawyers asked potential jurors about ties to a list of people who might be witnesses, including members of Joe Paterno's family and Sandusky's wife Dottie. It is unclear, however, which of them will take the stand, whether Sandusky himself will testify or whether the defense will call any witnesses at all.

It can be difficult for any defendant to hold up under the questions of a skilled cross-examiner, said Harris, the Pitt law professor, and defense attorneys are normally reluctant to play that card.

"If they put him on, that's really a sign that they think they cannot succeed unless they put him on," Harris said. "Because it's a huge risk."

And remember JS had trouble answering questions from Bob Costas in a friendly setting with his lawyer holding his hand....just guess how he would respond to a grilling from the prosecutor with all the facts at hand that he has no answers for. But personally, I wanna see it...I want to see him destroyed on the stand. I think the boys deserve seeing it also after the crap that they went through from Amendola.

 

[Reader]

Jerry Sandusky Trial a Reminder to Us All (6/15/12)

http://voices.yahoo.com/jerry-sandusky-trial-reminder-us-all-11456896.html?cat=14

..........The Jerry Sandusky trial, however, is a reminder that for all that we celebrate about sports, there is also a truly dark side of them to which we cannot turn a blind eye...........

Since Sandusky's guilt or innocence hasn't been formally established by the jury, all I'm going to say further about the trial is although the defense lawyer tried to do his job and suggest in his openiing statement that Sandusky's accusers are all lying and/or have financial motives, the first two witnesses sure came across as credible to me.

..........It seems to me that team sports fandom can leave children especially vulnerable to predators because of how much we adults invest in the teams we follow. We need to show our children we draw the appropriate line between being parents and fans.............

Predators prey on the reluctance of victims or others to speak up about abuse or suspected abuse. There cannot be a culture of shame around being abused. The Sandusky case is a reminder that we cannot stay silent.