Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #12

[twirlygirl]

While I'm fairly certain I would never buy such a book, I'm also fairly certain that if it were sitting around I might pick it up so I could pick it apart or at the very least test my own personal knowledge and beliefs about the events surrounding the case. JMHO. Just always trying to be aware of others and their opinions without sticking my head in the sand.

Absolutely!

IMO though this person theories might seem a bit more believable if they weren't peddling the mention of book throughout. That is where I feel it's simply someone trying to promote a book.

Conspiracy theories are great and definitely thought provoking. It allows a person to think outside the box and open your mind to other possibilities.

But for me plain and simple the book mention really turns me in a whole other direction as far as validity. Of course, not knowing what the theories are...can in a way seem unfair and biased.

So with that in mind...I will not say yeah or nay. But I for one will not jump so far deep in the pond when the preponderance of evidence in this case seems to be overwhelming on the surface that is. I am sure there is much we don't know and will probably never know.

 

[justus4all]

John Q Kelly stated on the Dateline interview tonight that he was in contact with Juran up until May 25th, 2010. So, yes, I would say there will definitely be correspondence of value on Joran's computer. JMHO.

bolded by me...If there is questionable correspondence found on it...and it would be further damming information that Joran wrote to JQK...Joran would quickly provide his "always handy" comment...."I was lying"........

all in my own opinion

 

[krowdkat]

bolded by me...If there is questionable correspondence found on it...and it would be further damming information that Joran wrote to JQK...Joran would quickly provide his "always handy" comment...."I was lying"........

all in my own opinion

Hahahaha. I couldn't have said what you just said, better myself! LOL

 

[LilJoePinto]

One of the questions for me now is this.......who is paying this lawyer of JVS? I suppose there is always somebody willing to step in and pay for someone to have an attorney....a private one at that.

Most likely his mother is paying for his attorney. I'm not seeing this as any big deal. Anyone in any country would find funds anywhere they could to have a private attorney so they aren't stuck with having to use a public defender. Not to desparage public defenders, but there's no question that they are over-worked, underpaid, and have no real incentive to do their utmost in protecting any one of their clients over any of their other clients. Their resources are minimal, and they simply don't have the time to research your case and often your case lands on their desk only minutes before having to represent you before a judge.

There is a theory that in a democracy no one person gets any better treatment in the justice system over another due to economic class, but in reality, there is no question that the more money you have, the better attorney you can buy who because of the incentive of how much they are paid will do a better job for you. Attorneys are not all created equal. The best one to represent you and more likely be able to win are the ones that are the most knowledgeable and experienced, which is why they are the most expensive. A poor person is not going to get the same quality representation as that of a wealthy one. That's just the way it is and no secret to anyone living in a democracy that works under the theory that everyone is entitled to representation and where the quality of that representation is going to depend on what the accused is able to afford.

No one here accused of a major crime would settle for using a public defender to represent them and would move heaven and earth to scrape together whatever money they could to buy themselves the best attorney that whatever funds are managed to obtain will purchase. Therefore, it would be hypocritical to desparage Joran for doing exactly that... scraping together whatever funds he can to buy himself the best attorney those funds will allow. If his mother is willing to spend all she has for the best attorney she can get for him, this is to be expected and exactly what any of us would likely do for any of our loved ones.

A private attorney is nothing special in a democratic justice system... it's just the alternative to a public defender. None of us would settle for a public defender if we had any money to purchase a private attorney, and every one of us would beg and borrow from everyone we could think of in order to get the most money we could to buy the best attorney we could.

While there are a stunning multitude of things to desparage Joran for, begging money from his mother or anyone else he knows to pay for the best representation he can get isn't one of them as that's exactly what any of us would do.

Joran disgusts me because of the kind of person he is and what he has done and how he has lived his life, but as much as he does disgust me, he is entitled in the justice system to pay for a private attorney if he is able. The irrational side of me would like him to be thrown in a dungeon for all eternity immediately and nevermind any investigation or trial or human/legal rights, but the rational side of me insists that everyone no matter how disgusting a person or how grotesquely they have behaved is deserving of a a genuine investigation, fair trial and human/legal rights. Sometimes it's difficult to listen to the rational side and tell the irrational side to get a grip... I think that's just part of being human.

 

[georger]

I keep hearing the rumor that Juran killed a dog when he was 13, but I have never seen one single article to support that. Can anyone PM me or provide a link for information inre to that event? Also, earlier today, someone posted that his mom had him in some sort of therapy after that event. I'd also appreciate the ability to read that article. Google is giving me nothing at this point, although I was able to see a naked Joran holding himself compliments of Google, today. Ack! I keep running my virus scanner because I heard you can get one from visiting sites such as that.

Im trying to recall the interview - seen so much Im a little numb and
havent kept a score-sheet. MY guess is CNN. They interviewed several
people from his past. Several things that stood out were: wasnt good in
sports, was interested in the arts, was a "ladies man", had many girlfiriends but didnt stick with any, lost intrest in school, HAD A
VERY BAD TEMPER AND WAS KNOWN FOR HAVING A BAD TEMPER.
That last part stood out.

Surely someone else (millions!) saw the intrerview Im referring to.

 

[georger]

I agree!

When I see someone try to convey some sort of conspiracy theory...Yes some of it to the reader might in fact be somewhat thought provoking to some. But where all it goes south for me. Is all the book preaching. It turns from a conspiracy to book peddling and nonsense! MOO

Hardly something I would ever really want to read let alone indulge the mindset of a person who's ulterior motives are questionable at best.

Just my two cents.

agree. I keep waiting for the UFO & Dizum.com linkage!

 

[georger]

I'm with you on this one, jwarner. No reason for her to take off her pants. I believe I've read/heard that one of Joran's confessions even state that Stephany told him she like girls. I don't think either of them layed down to rest. I think they struggled while he had his white shirt on and he knocked her out, took her pants and panties off. When he realized she was on her monthy he pulled the panties back up and smothered her with his blood stained shirt. Pure outrage and fury!

I don't even buy that she saw something about Natalie and his involvement on his computer! But that's just me thinking that Joran is a complete and utter BSer trying to make the victim the perp.

I dont buy the laptop story even if she was momentarily on his laptop - period.

The pattern of bruises and injuries suggest being tied up and battered.
Legs up at her chest in fetal positon exactly as she was found. This detail of her being in a fetal position was one of the first firm details that Police
gave. (This detail is everywhere in the early news reports of the crime scene).

But I am very suspicious there was a financial matter between them
and Joran decided to take it out on her maybe not even intending to
kill her at first. Punishment. The body wounds suggest a violent punishment with her disabled unable to defend herself (tied up?).

It will all come out - the Peruvians are doing a good job forensically.

 

[LilJoePinto]

We have a Media Thread now where all the latest that was reported today can be viewed.

Stephany Flores Ramirez Media Links and Images **NO DISCUSSION** - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Fantastic. I've been so busy the last couple of days I've not been able to even do more than glance at my email. Gads, I'm amazed that I'm several whole THREADS behind now! I'd never be able to catch up digging through all of that. It'll be much easier trying to get caught up going through the media thread. I'm sure I'd still be missing a lot and some good discussions, but at least it'll be easier to get the basics plowing through the media thread.

Great idea for the media thread. Phewwww... I feel better now.

 

[georger]

Gosh what started out as $5000 is now down to $104 US! :waitasec:

They are talking about $5000 pesos or whatever, not US Dollars. Their currency is
worth only ~1/3rd or less of the US dollar.

 

[SoCalSleuth]

Unreals, I could not quote your prior posts because the thread was closed. I respect anyone that is writing a book because it is quite an undertaking and I wish you success in that endeavor. However, I hope you realize that you will have to publish it as a work of fiction. I do not mean that in a snarky way. You cannot base a book on mere conjecture, speculation, conspiracy theories etc., especially when you are accusing people of being involved in the drug trade or engaging in other nefarious conduct. There could be a drug trade with officials involved in Aruba. Now tying that business venture and interests in with Natalee's disappearance is an entirely different matter. I am very familiar with the criminal and civil legal documents related to Natalee's disappearance. Due to my longstanding legal work for a forum devoted to Natalee it was my reponsibility to obtain certified copies of such documents. There is no question that Joran, and Joran alone is responsible for Natalee's disappearance. That is not just my view, that is the view of seasoned investigators and lawyers throughout the world. I would also suggest that you do your homework before you attempt to publish the book, I am assuming that your publisher has a fact-checker. Again, I do not mean this to be snarky, but rather some friendly and free advice. You have posted some things that are clearly mistaken and which you should know if you were remotely knowledgeable about the matter. You question why the FBI didn't arrest Joran on 5/10 if in fact he had comitted extortion. They couldn't because they were in Aruba--that's knowledge that should be elementary for someone writing a book on a case where the FBI is involved. You question why BH honed in on Joran. Well for someone writing a book on crime, you should know that's where the stats would lead an investigator--to the last person with her. That BH also thought that shows that it's also common sense. You question whether Joran really had psycological issues. Joran's parents were the ones that stated that Joran had psychological issues and that they had sent him to a psychiatrist. That was from their own mouths during their various media interviews at the time, interviews with which you should be familiar. I could go on but I think I've made my point. I also agree with you that there are problems with our justice system, however, it is the best system in the world.

 

[LadyL]

The only place I've seen mention of the family dog being killed was here. I've been looking, too, because I wanted to verify it for myself.

The other thing I haven't found is the FB Joran support group that was mentioned here.

 

[georger]

The only place I've seen mention of the family dog being killed was here. I've been looking, too, because I wanted to verify it for myself.

The other thing I haven't found is the FB Joran support group that was mentioned here.

Could you explain?
Support group for who, for what?

 

[FIND'HER]

Hi Folks,
Been a while since I posted here just been a reader since things have some what calm down some with the C Anthony case, until the trail begins. But this case has always bothered me. I do beleive Joran knows what happened to Miss Holloway.
But, I also beleive people are innonence until proven guilty. Something about this case has bugged me since the murder of this last young girl.
In the timeline it says that Joran had contacted Nat. Hollaway mother for $$$$. My question is how did he know how to find her and where she was living at???
My Second concern is on April 3, 2010[*]John Q. Kelly and Beth Holloway fly to Aruba to meet with Joran. After he contacted her on March 29th she flys to Aruba 4 or 5 days later. Then on May 10th a Contract is signed between Joran, Beth and John Q. Kelly as well as photographs taken of them signing contract. I REALLY beleive he killed N.Halloway or he knows what happened to her in Aruba. But I think when he went out for Coffee on May the 30th he returned to that room to find stepany already dead. I dont think he killed that girl for looking at his computer, and if he did then what info would she have to share. Surely he didnt save a file on there on how he or knew of how N.Hollaway was murdered. Plus when he checks in the motel it mighty funny he is staying in the room right beside the camera. I just think someone else is involved in this case.....JMO !!

 

[LadyL]

Could you explain?
Support group for who, for what?

Unreals had said that there was a FB group, consisting of several former girlfriends of Jorans, who believe in his innocence.

 

[krowdkat]

Hi Folks,
Been a while since I posted here just been a reader since things have some what calm down some with the C Anthony case, until the trail begins. But this case has always bothered me. I do beleive Joran knows what happened to Miss Holloway.
But, I also beleive people are innonence until proven guilty. Something about this case has bugged me since the murder of this last young girl.
In the timeline it says that Joran had contacted Nat. Hollaway mother for $$$$. My question is how did he know how to find her and where she was living at???
My Second concern is on April 3, 2010[*]John Q. Kelly and Beth Holloway fly to Aruba to meet with Joran. After he contacted her on March 29th she flys to Aruba 4 or 5 days later. Then on May 10th a Contract is signed between Joran, Beth and John Q. Kelly as well as photographs taken of them signing contract. I REALLY beleive he killed N.Halloway or he knows what happened to her in Aruba. But I think when he went out for Coffee on May the 30th he returned to that room to find stepany already dead. I dont think he killed that girl for looking at his computer, and if he did then what info would she have to share. Surely he didnt save a file on there on how he or knew of how N.Hollaway was murdered. Plus when he checks in the motel it mighty funny he is staying in the room right beside the camera. I just think someone else is involved in this case.....JMO !!

Seriously, you might want to go to this link and read up and watch the videos. Several things you just posted are way off the mark based on media coverage and documents that LE in PERU have released. Hope this link helps you get caught up to speed! Kind regards.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106482"]Stephany Flores Ramirez Media Links and Images **NO DISCUSSION** - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[IzzyBlanche]

[snipped]

...the rational side of me insists that everyone no matter how disgusting a person or how grotesquely they have behaved is undeserving of a a genuine investigation, fair trial and human/legal rights.

Freudian slip?


(Just funnin' with ya.)

 

[DollyPardonMe]

suzihawk and others,

I really don't mean to be coy, and I would be much more detailed about things, but I am bound by contractural obligations to save most of this stuff for the book. I also have to careful about anything I say regarding Beth and her family/friends, because I don't want to violate forum rules.

That being said, the powerful interests that covered up Natalee's death revolve around the drug trade in Aruba (and elsewhere, including Peru) and government officials who profit financially from it. I really don't know why Joran was targeted initially; it may just have been a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I still can't completely figure out why Beth focused so exclusively on him from the outset (and believe me, there is evidence to indicate there was no logical reason to do so). I believe, at some point, due to Joran's seeming lack of sympathy for her, and his ever changing stories, that it became personal for Beth.

I can only speculate about exactly what happened in Peru, but that speculation will naturally be influenced by the research I've conducted on the Holloway case. I can't help but strongly believe the two cases are connected, even without the incredible five year anniversary date "coincidence," and the sudden news about the "extortion" plot, breaking nationally on the exact day Joran was apprehended. I've tried to post a plausible scenario, but I fully realize that most of you will find it preposterous.

As for the coffee video, I respectfully question the dire interpretations about Joran appearing confounded in the hallway, weakly knocking on a door that isn't fully closed, etc. There is no question that it looks very weird, but I can't see as how it is an indication of guilt. And, of course, getting the hotel employee to open the door just makes no sense to me, if there is a dead body behind that door, unless you want it to be discovered, which obviously wasn't the case, since Joran didn't point it out.

Joran appears to lack the capacity to make sound judgments, and his morality clearly is impaired where money is involved. There are far too many young people now who share these unfortunate traits. If I were to mimic Kelly, and play armchair analyst, I'd say that Joran has some mild form of autism, which is reflected in the impassive look he often projects and the apparent lack of empathy he shows towards others. Of course, I could easily be wrong- this is just a guess to explain his habitual lying and failure to understand the seriousness of a situation.

I won't be on the forum again until tomorrow, but I thank those of you who are at least according my outlandish notions some respect.

BBM

Most autistic people have an inability to lie, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but is clearly unnatural. They don't even consider lying an option because they assume everyone knows the truth as they know it. And they are definitely NOT egocentric. I think Joran falls under the category of knowing exactly the seriousness of what he's doing, totally psycopathic, and narcissistic to the core!

 

[georger]

Unreals had said that there was a FB group, consisting of several former girlfriends of Jorans, who believe in his innocence.

Yes! Now that you explain I have heard of this too; have no idea
where but it is interesting. There is no question Joran has supporters
in Holland and elsewhere. *Everyone has to be somewhere.

Thanks.

 

[krowdkat]

BBM

Most autistic people have an inability to lie, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but is clearly unnatural. They don't even consider lying an option because they assume everyone knows the truth as they know it. And they are definitely NOT egocentric. I think Joran falls under the category of knowing exactly the seriousness of what he's doing, totally psycopathic, and narcissistic to the core!

Some children/people with autism and aspergers syndrome also have a keen ability to count cards and professionally surf, too. Doesn't seem to be so true with Joran.

 

[MCDRAW]

suzihawk and others,

I really don't mean to be coy, and I would be much more detailed about things, but I am bound by contractural obligations to save most of this stuff for the book. I also have to careful about anything I say regarding Beth and her family/friends, because I don't want to violate forum rules.

That being said, the powerful interests that covered up Natalee's death revolve around the drug trade in Aruba (and elsewhere, including Peru) and government officials who profit financially from it. I really don't know why Joran was targeted initially; it may just have been a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I still can't completely figure out why Beth focused so exclusively on him from the outset (and believe me, there is evidence to indicate there was no logical reason to do so). I believe, at some point, due to Joran's seeming lack of sympathy for her, and his ever changing stories, that it became personal for Beth.

I can only speculate about exactly what happened in Peru, but that speculation will naturally be influenced by the research I've conducted on the Holloway case. I can't help but strongly believe the two cases are connected, even without the incredible five year anniversary date "coincidence," and the sudden news about the "extortion" plot, breaking nationally on the exact day Joran was apprehended. I've tried to post a plausible scenario, but I fully realize that most of you will find it preposterous.

As for the coffee video, I respectfully question the dire interpretations about Joran appearing confounded in the hallway, weakly knocking on a door that isn't fully closed, etc. There is no question that it looks very weird, but I can't see as how it is an indication of guilt. And, of course, getting the hotel employee to open the door just makes no sense to me, if there is a dead body behind that door, unless you want it to be discovered, which obviously wasn't the case, since Joran didn't point it out.

Joran appears to lack the capacity to make sound judgments, and his morality clearly is impaired where money is involved. There are far too many young people now who share these unfortunate traits. If I were to mimic Kelly, and play armchair analyst, I'd say that Joran has some mild form of autism, which is reflected in the impassive look he often projects and the apparent lack of empathy he shows towards others. Of course, I could easily be wrong- this is just a guess to explain his habitual lying and failure to understand the seriousness of a situation.

I won't be on the forum again until tomorrow, but I thank those of you who are at least according my outlandish notions some respect.

Just because Joran doesn't have emphathy doesn't make him autistic. If this is all Beth Twitty's fault and Joran is so innocent why has he sold his story a ton of times? Why would he confess to killing her then say No I didn't? In my opinion, If somone is innocent they would never confess to killing someone to make money.