Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #14

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
It's very likely that JVS learned that it was okay to be a liar, but not necessarily because he witnessed express (blatant) lies in his home. At birth, our brains are relatively undeveloped save a few reflexive instincts. At birth, neurons number a little over 100 billion, but they are not connected up for the most part ("wired together"). At that time, there are ONLY about 2,500 connections per neuron. From the moment of birth up to three years of age, our brains are on a mad mission to form these neural connections. They are ONLY formed by activity (and NON activity, as in neglect) and interaction. That is to say that the day-to-day environment that they are in "wires up" the brain.

By age 3, there are 15,000 connections per neuron, or about 1,000 trillion total. But this is an over abundance. The brain does this to ensure that it is *first* making all the connections it will need *to survive* in its environment (once we survive, only then will we need higher functions). The area of the brain where these connections are rapidly being formed is the limbic system. Because it's our "survival" center, it is of course the area of the brain responsible for our "fight or flight" response (danger evaluation), our instincts (facial expression interpretation...friend or foe, or sometimes friend, sometimes not), emotional memory, etc.

When the brain feels it has all of the necessary connections (is fully programmed to at least survive), the brain starts pruning the connections. It keeps connections that were used often (for better or worse), and rids itself of the ones that were not used often, so that the ones that were used often can strengthen and "firm up."

At 2 & 3 yrs of age, you don't have a firm grasp on what "lying" or "honesty" really is. What your brain learns, or not, is if it can RELY on other people to provide what it needs to survive. Or, does it have to devise ways to trick others into getting or taking what it needs. The brain learns if this is a world where you could be attacked at random (so that you're brain better on constant alert...not so focused on a task that it can't react...i.e. ADD or ADHD, which is often co-morbid with a couple of personality disorders), and so it goes.

The development of the limbic system is by-and-large completed at this point never to be re-developed. The brain goes on to developing higher functions (language skills, reasoning, etc.). Those "skills" and other functions, like sight, also have these "windows of opportunity" that close if you do not learn them by a certain age.

So for pathological liars then, yes, they "learned" that lying was okay, but, perhaps, again, not because they were expressly lied to in the home, but because that was one of the strategies their brain learned in order to survive in their environment. For example, they could not get comforted (protection) by Mom or Dad when they were simply crying because they skinned fell and bumped their toe, so they said they hit their head too. That got Mom's attention, who only then picked up junior and rubbed his head...

That, of course, is a simplified picture. And the mild example above would be pruned away if Mom was just having a bad hair day & normally responded to Junior in a concerned & caring manner. But at the other end of the spectrum is extreme neglect, like the babies in Romanian & Chinese orphanages that just stopped crying when they were hungry because it got them nothing. If the extreme neglect continues, they'll begin banging their heads for stimulation (these were normal babies at birth and up until orphaned, mind you).

Somewhere in between these examples are children that somewhat regularly or unpredictably neglected and/or emotionally abused. Their brains learn to respond with whatever tricks work to get them by (and high, or at least some feeling...that's the head banging, or later the drugs, or the high that psychopaths get from having dominion over another human being's life).

I've taken to looking at family pictures, if they are available, for clues into childhoods of dysfunctional people. There is a couple of pictures of PVS & JVS together that look odd to me. For example there is one where JVS is a teen & the family is around a dinner table. JVS has one arm around PVS and the other hand touching/underneath his dad's hand and JVS also leaned his head over to touch his dad's head. PVS is not reciprocating in his body language at all. Normally, a teenage boy would not be all over his dad like that, unless he was just goofing. But that's not what was going on in this photo. The picture seems to suggest a relationship that is not healthy (e.g. a JVS enmeshed relationship or a wanna-be relationship, not a healthy love-respect relationship). Another photo on a couch portrays a similar image of JVS feigning/wanting a loving relationship with PVS while PVS is just looking at the camera with his hands in his lap.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/popup?id=1586267

Another oddity is, perhaps, that I've noticed in listening to dsyfunctional people (i.e. criminals or the mentally ill) rather than use the term "I was afraid", they often use the term "I was in fear," as if they were *in a place,* not experiencing an emotion. Some day I'm going to delve into that further as I don't have the time in my life now, but it's quite interesting, especially if there is something to it.

Thanks for the post. Very informative and I find your observations in the pictures and the thoughts on dysfunctional statements food for thought.

I've read where certain studies show and therefore believed that among "some groups" the response to fear, arousal, (emotions/hormones) go directly from the amygdala to the brain, instead of from the amygdala to the hippocampus or hypothalamus for processing. The amygdala more or less being the primal function of fight or flight with the negation of thought/rationalization per se of the other. (Sorry, I read this over 15 years ago and am not in the med profession, so I can't remember if it was the hippo or hypo that supposedly makes for the rationalization.):crazy:

I can't remember if it was The Mask of Sanity, The Father of the Lie, or maybe another book that was breaking it down physiologically. Now I'm going to go nuts trying to remember and will surly find myself going through my library today till I find it!!! Not good.:waitasec:
 
I'm beginning to think that maybe Natalee's body is buried on the VDS property. That would explain why the elder VDS's did not sell the property and go with Joran to the Netherlands. I had always thought it would be best for all of them to leave Aruba far behind. I am trying to remember if the property was ever searched. I think that initially the VDS's fought this, but eventually the property was searched, but maybe not in its entirety. Does anyone remember?
 
Blessings to you too shorty! I was just watching Greta and she was talking to a reporter from Peru. He made it sound like Joran got the 1st installment from BH for the extortion and went straight to Peru arriving around May 13th, I think he said. THEN, he went to Columbia and went back to Peru for the Poker tournament were he met Stephany around the 27th of May!

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4241298/joran-timeline-key-to-peru-murder-motive

Joran went from Aruba, to Columbia (this could just be a layover) and then to Peru.
 
Quite possible. (Human trafficking?) He was known to gamble quite a bit as well. Maybe he was better at it than his son.

I was thinking the same thing. Joran had to get all his "bright" ideas from someone, somewhere. What could possibly lead someone to believe that human trafficiking wwas an acceptable career path?????
 
I was thinking the same thing. Joran had to get all his "bright" ideas from someone, somewhere. What could possibly lead someone to believe that human trafficiking wwas an acceptable career path?????

Money.
 
Yeah, reminds me of the old saying, "Be careful what you wish for because you may get it". 5 years Joran & friends wished that he wouldn't go to an Aruban prison & sure enough, he didn't. That one wish which was granted left him free to kill again & he landed in one of the worst prisons in the world.

In my younger years, I read a lot about Ted Bundy. I was in college at Auburn University in Alabama when he snuck into a dormitory at a University in Florida (Tallahassee-- if my memory is correct) and attacked/killed some of the co-eds. I remember that criminologists noted how interesting it was that, out of 49 states he could have gone to after breaking out of jail (in Colorado, I believe), that he ended up in Florida -- a state where he would almost be guaranteed to get the death penalty if he committed another murder while there. Some people believed that he may have had a subconscious desire to get caught. Ultimately, Bundy was put to death in Florida's electric chair -- and I for one felt like he got what he deserved.

In some ways, JVDS's actions mirror Bundy's in that he ended up allegedly committing another murder in a country whose penal system is one of the worst he could be in. He may not get the death penalty, but he will certainly suffer more in jail in Peru than if he was incarcerated in Aruba, the Netherlands or the US. A subconscious choice on his part, or just carelessness and stupidity?
 
In my younger years, I read a lot about Ted Bundy. I was in college at Auburn University in Alabama when he snuck into a dormitory at a University in Florida (Tallahassee-- if my memory is correct) and attacked/killed some of the co-eds. I remember that criminologists noted how interesting it was that, out of 49 states he could have gone to after breaking out of jail (in Colorado, I believe), that he ended up in Florida -- a state where he would almost be guaranteed to get the death penalty if he committed another murder while there. Some people believed that he may have had a subconscious desire to get caught. Ultimately, Bundy was put to death in Florida's electric chair -- and I for one felt like he got what he deserved.

In some ways, JVDS's actions mirror Bundy's in that he ended up allegedly committing another murder in a country whose penal system is one of the worst he could be in. He may not get the death penalty, but he will certainly suffer more in jail in Peru than if he was incarcerated in Aruba, the Netherlands or the US. A subconscious choice on his part, or just carelessness and stupidity?

I'm glad you brought up the Ted Bundy/subconscious angle. I had thought of that also.
 
In my younger years, I read a lot about Ted Bundy. I was in college at Auburn University in Alabama when he snuck into a dormitory at a University in Florida (Tallahassee-- if my memory is correct) and attacked/killed some of the co-eds. I remember that criminologists noted how interesting it was that, out of 49 states he could have gone to after breaking out of jail (in Colorado, I believe), that he ended up in Florida -- a state where he would almost be guaranteed to get the death penalty if he committed another murder while there. Some people believed that he may have had a subconscious desire to get caught. Ultimately, Bundy was put to death in Florida's electric chair -- and I for one felt like he got what he deserved.

In some ways, JVDS's actions mirror Bundy's in that he ended up allegedly committing another murder in a country whose penal system is one of the worst he could be in. He may not get the death penalty, but he will certainly suffer more in jail in Peru than if he was incarcerated in Aruba, the Netherlands or the US. A subconscious choice on his part, or just carelessness and stupidity?


The only reason IMO that Joran ended up in Peru is because he wanted to follow the LAPT and participate for the big payout prizes. That's why he hatched the plan to extort money from BH to finance this "adventure". Ironically, the LAPT stop in Chile at Vin De Mar, where Joran ran to after the murder, was supposed to take place prior to the tournament in Peru but it was cancelled. It's interesting that he fled to that area anyway after the murder. Some early reports indicated that he might be heading towards Argentina. The final tournament for the LAPT is going to be held there. So every move he made in SA seemed to be connected to that tour.

At the time of the murder, it seems that Joran was fully involved in his poker addiction and was doing anything and everything to feed this. When he blew through his extortion money in Peru before the tournament even started he got desperate. I'm sure it didn't even occur to him where he was when he murdered Stephany. And IMO, it was all about money to finance his addiction. I don't think he ever intended, even in his subconcious, to "get caught" doing anything. He was thinking like an addict...minute to minute...to get his fix in any way possible without thinking or caring about the consequences and the devastation he was leaving in his wake. MOO
 
In some ways, JVDS's actions mirror Bundy's in that he ended up allegedly committing another murder in a country whose penal system is one of the worst he could be in. He may not get the death penalty, but he will certainly suffer more in jail in Peru than if he was incarcerated in Aruba, the Netherlands or the US. A subconscious choice on his part, or just carelessness and stupidity?

Interesting point you raised makes me wonder if it is something to do with the perverse ''rush'' of adrenaline that made the choice more irresistable?
 

And not having to actually work too hard to get it. Other people's suffering mean nothing to him. Even before his father's death we have read they were not in contact, once he was helped to get out of responsibility for his crime, he had no further use for them. Until now, he needs the help from Mama and any influence she may still have. I understand her trying to get a lawyer for him, everyone deserves that. He hates Beth, she never cut him any slack for Natalie as everyone else in his life had done - it is ironic that he is using Natalie as a life line.
 
I was thinking the same thing. Joran had to get all his "bright" ideas from someone, somewhere. What could possibly lead someone to believe that human trafficiking wwas an acceptable career path?????


Yes, money...AND testing the quality of the goods.
 
http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/joran’s-lawyer-decides-stay

Joran van der Sloot’s lawyer, Máximo Altez, has decided he will continue to defend his client. Earlier he announced he was quitting because of “numerous family problems”, but Radio Netherlands Worldwide has learned that he has now decided to go ahead regardless. He has, however, moved to a secret location since the windows of his office were smashed.

A prominent Peruvian lawyer has informed RNW that Joran’s mother wants the trial moved to the Netherlands. He says this is theoretically possible in legal terms, but only if the Peruvian authorities agree and that seems unlikely.
 
http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/joran’s-lawyer-decides-stay

Joran van der Sloot’s lawyer, Máximo Altez, has decided he will continue to defend his client. Earlier he announced he was quitting because of “numerous family problems”, but Radio Netherlands Worldwide has learned that he has now decided to go ahead regardless. He has, however, moved to a secret location since the windows of his office were smashed.

A prominent Peruvian lawyer has informed RNW that Joran’s mother wants the trial moved to the Netherlands. He says this is theoretically possible in legal terms, but only if the Peruvian authorities agree and that seems unlikely.

I guess I could understand his mother's reasoning but good Lord that would take some nerve to even request this.....never mind...too early and not enough coffee yet
 
http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/joran’s-lawyer-decides-stay

Joran van der Sloot’s lawyer, Máximo Altez, has decided he will continue to defend his client. Earlier he announced he was quitting because of “numerous family problems”, but Radio Netherlands Worldwide has learned that he has now decided to go ahead regardless. He has, however, moved to a secret location since the windows of his office were smashed.

A prominent Peruvian lawyer has informed RNW that Joran’s mother wants the trial moved to the Netherlands. He says this is theoretically possible in legal terms, but only if the Peruvian authorities agree and that seems unlikely.


gggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Thanks for the link---It's pretty frustrating to see that the enlightened folks in the Netherlands deem that JVDS needs a shrink more than a lawyer and that he won't get a fair trial in Peru as a result of the mass hysteria ((the trial is judicial NOT a jury so I don't see how that fits)). I would hope that their request for a change of venue is denied (for the sake of the Flores family).
 
I guess I could understand his mother's reasoning but good Lord that would take some nerve to even request this.....never mind...too early and not enough coffee yet


Is that maybe where Joran got his sense of entitlement? What jurisdiction does the Netherlands have?
 
gggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Thanks for the link---It's pretty frustrating to see that the enlightened folks in the Netherlands deem that JVDS needs a shrink more than a lawyer and that he won't get a fair trial in Peru as a result of the mass hysteria ((the trial is judicial NOT a jury so I don't see how that fits)). I would hope that their request for a change of venue is denied (for the sake of the Flores family).

Oh, by all means, let the trial be moved to the Netherlands. In their infinite mercy they can then release him so he can kill again. Makes perfect sense to me. We definitly want a stone cold killer to have every advantage possible. Can anyone tell I'm into heavy sarcasim this morning?
 
This article is from yesterday and more or less describes what is expected to happen when Joran goes before the judge on Friday.

In this article, they speculated that the defense lawyer would be César Nakazaki. We're still not certain if that's the case due to conflicting reports re: his current lawyer not resigning as originally stated. Dutch news today says he's not; Peru news says he is.

But, the most interesting part is in the Comments section with all the bad remarks re: Nakazaki....summarized by one: "César Nakazaki is the attorney for the corrupt and [worst] criminals and the worst part is that [he] always loses. You have to be stupid to hire him."


http://peru21.pe/noticia/495292/joran-van-der-sloot-declararia-viernes

MOO
 
In my younger years, I read a lot about Ted Bundy. I was in college at Auburn University in Alabama when he snuck into a dormitory at a University in Florida (Tallahassee-- if my memory is correct) and attacked/killed some of the co-eds. I remember that criminologists noted how interesting it was that, out of 49 states he could have gone to after breaking out of jail (in Colorado, I believe), that he ended up in Florida -- a state where he would almost be guaranteed to get the death penalty if he committed another murder while there. Some people believed that he may have had a subconscious desire to get caught. Ultimately, Bundy was put to death in Florida's electric chair -- and I for one felt like he got what he deserved.

In some ways, JVDS's actions mirror Bundy's in that he ended up allegedly committing another murder in a country whose penal system is one of the worst he could be in. He may not get the death penalty, but he will certainly suffer more in jail in Peru than if he was incarcerated in Aruba, the Netherlands or the US. A subconscious choice on his part, or just carelessness and stupidity?

Interesting you should say that. I read, on the boards here somewhere last week or so, that is exactly what he did. He had ask someone before breaking out what state would surely give him the DP and they said FL. Yep, that's where he went.
 
Thank you for posting the video. I applaud the Peruvian court system for moving this right along ((no wasting time or money unlike some other big cases that are sooo expensive for the state))
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
220
Guests online
3,638
Total visitors
3,858

Forum statistics

Threads
604,488
Messages
18,172,898
Members
232,622
Latest member
YouthSleuth98
Back
Top