Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #21

[selena]

I just have to ask. You mentioned your grandmother's generation and
ivory buttons from longjohns, used to gamble as children?. I have a similar
background but it was clam shell pearl bottons off all old clothing. The
older folks horded them. We used to shine them up and collect them
as currency 5 for a penny! Was it the same with ivory buttons? I would
suppose ivory is worth a lot more than our old pearl buttons? We had tin cans full of them to sell at church bizarres etc ... but today many years later they are worth something!

You know I never thought of that, but they may have been pearl shell. They have yellowed with age and it was before plastic so I know for sure they aren't modern- Grandma was born in 1902. Someone suggested ivory and I always stuck with that but she never told us specifically.
I have to keep them, I won them all playing Crazy 8's!

 

[georger]

They looked to be at ease in the casino. She was comfortable enough to sit at a table with him after meeting him initially on the 27th. He wasn't a great poker player, she probably wasn't worried about him because she looked like an athletic type and was also a soccer player. I don't know what else could have happened that would have tipped her off. He must have been an exquisite actor to pull off losing and still smile that the vat that ate the canary in the hostel video where he gets his key.
Look at his right hand twitch before he gets the key. He was amped.

Are you saying you think he knew what he was going to do?

 

[selena]

Are you saying you think he knew what he was going to do?

In my humble opinion he knew what he was going to do. She was a big winner, she had a car, she was a woman going up to his private hotel room. The walls were soundproof. His moves were lethal. ( My ex husband, a cop taught me one move to kill a person- shove their nose into their forehead with your palm, cartilage goes straight to the brain ) He has opportunity, motive and ability. And this time there is evidence of him staring like a lost puppy at the camera.
Yes.

 

[georger]

You know I never thought of that, but they may have been pearl shell. They have yellowed with age and it was before plastic so I know for sure they aren't modern- Grandma was born in 1902. Someone suggested ivory and I always stuck with that but she never told us specifically.
I have to keep them, I won them all playing Crazy 8's!

Keep them. Polish them and look at the surface. The cellular structure,
colour, and lustre of ivory is totally different from clam shell. The clam
shells buttons polished will actually reflect and diffuse light off its upper
5 micron surface to produce a mirror like reflection with a rainbow ...
ivory wont/cant do that because of its different cell structure. But I am betting ivory buttons (true ivory) are far more valuable than clam shell.

 

[georger]

In my humble opinion he knew what he was going to do. She was a big winner, she had a car, she was a woman going up to his private hotel room. The walls were soundproof. His moves were lethal. ( My ex husband, a cop taught me one move to kill a person- shove their nose into their forehead with your palm, cartilage goes straight to the brain ) He has opportunity, motive and ability. And this time there is evidence of him staring like a lost puppy at the camera.
Yes.

Yes. I fear you are right. True psychopath.

 

[selena]

Keep them. Polish them and look at the surface. The cellular structure,
colour, and lustre of ivory is totally different from clam shell. The clam
shells buttons polished will actually reflect and diffuse light off its upper
5 micron surface to produce a mirror like reflection with a rainbow ...
ivory wont/cant do that because of its different cell structure. But I am betting ivory buttons (true ivory) are far more valuable than clam shell.

LOL, I am looking for them now, They're in my crafting stuff!
and on that note I am signing off
thanks for the tip!

 

[georger]

LOL, I am looking for them now, They're in my crafting stuff!
and on that note I am signing off
thanks for the tip!

Take care.

 

[hollyblue]

they could have been noted as hers if Joran brought them up to the room to use after he moved her car, and the fingerprints on them are from her and an unidentified person ( g/f).

She could have had one and then found one somewhere that evening that someone had left or lost. Person at table, restroom, or on the floor/ground. You never have too many lighters. I know if I find one, I pick it up to see if it works and then pocket it.:angel:

 

[hollyblue]

They looked to be at ease in the casino. She was comfortable enough to sit at a table with him after meeting him initially on the 27th. He wasn't a great poker player, she probably wasn't worried about him because she looked like an athletic type and was also a soccer player. I don't know what else could have happened that would have tipped her off. He must have been an exquisite actor to pull off losing and still smile that the vat that ate the canary in the hostel video where he gets his key.
Look at his right hand twitch before he gets the key. He was amped.

Yep, he certainly was and then that smirk followed by a look at the other attendent like "Score". Ugh.

 

[hollyblue]

Keep them. Polish them and look at the surface. The cellular structure,
colour, and lustre of ivory is totally different from clam shell. The clam
shells buttons polished will actually reflect and diffuse light off its upper
5 micron surface to produce a mirror like reflection with a rainbow ...
ivory wont/cant do that because of its different cell structure. But I am betting ivory buttons (true ivory) are far more valuable than clam shell.

I think the pj buttons were prolly celluloid or plastic (bakelite was an early plastic). Celluloid and bakelite...especially jewelry is very collectable now.
Here's article:

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic[/ame]

ETA: Celluloid is very fragile, so it would be almost like clam shell; where Bakelite was a very heavy/durable first plastic.

 

[hollyblue]

Yes. I fear you are right. True psychopath.

It's late so I hope I can get away with this. Let your girls know. Most of the time... the more dangerous ones are like the worst of farts.....silent but deadly.

 

[nervous_nellie]

well, i can tell you that i have boatloads of lighters...big ones, little ones - you name it i got it. i leave lighters everywhere i go in cars and houses - everywhere. and i dont carry a purse either so i have to agree that for her to have had TWO lighters in her pockets is odd. even one lighter is odd if she doesnt smoke something...

the video of her and him in the lobby waiting for his key is odd too. she does look to be hanging her head, but i dont think she is trying to not be identified - i think if she was doing that she would have let her hair down to help hide her face. i have to agree that she was only intending to stay for a short time and also why she was parked in the temp. parking. is there any outdoor video from the tac? not the one where it shows her walking into the casino but anything that shows them arriving at the hostel?

the text to the friend saying she was on her way upstairs to HER room sounds like to me that she may have been leading the friend to believe that she was at home and not still out gambling. all the reports of sf from friends and family have been glowing - the only contention pointed out early on was about her gambling habits and that her father was not happy with these habits...so i have to suspect that this is what she was trying to hide from the friend and what she may have felt ashamed of (if she did) and why she was with jvds...
since she was the superior gambler maybe he wanted her to win him some money online because we know he was low on funds,etc. this is what is really niggling at me the most is WHY did she go there with him? probably never know now ... but WHY did she have to go there?

 

[hollyblue]

well, i can tell you that i have boatloads of lighters...big ones, little ones - you name it i got it. i leave lighters everywhere i go in cars and houses - everywhere. and i dont carry a purse either so i have to agree that for her to have had TWO lighters in her pockets is odd. even one lighter is odd if she doesnt smoke something...

the video of her and him in the lobby waiting for his key is odd too. she does look to be hanging her head, but i dont think she is trying to not be identified - i think if she was doing that she would have let her hair down to help hide her face. i have to agree that she was only intending to stay for a short time and also why she was parked in the temp. parking. is there any outdoor video from the tac? not the one where it shows her walking into the casino but anything that shows them arriving at the hostel?

the text to the friend saying she was on her way upstairs to HER room sounds like to me that she may have been leading the friend to believe that she was at home and not still out gambling. all the reports of sf from friends and family have been glowing - the only contention pointed out early on was about her gambling habits and that her father was not happy with these habits...so i have to suspect that this is what she was trying to hide from the friend and what she may have felt ashamed of (if she did) and why she was with jvds...
since she was the superior gambler maybe he wanted her to win him some money online because we know he was low on funds,etc. this is what is really niggling at me the most is WHY did she go there with him? probably never know now ... but WHY did she have to go there?

I think you make a good point for her going there. He would never admit he was going to sell the puter for money (needed it=guilty of motive) and the same with him conniving her to use her skills to win at poker on line. Never admit that.....toooo big of an ego....a poker "instructor" needing help?????

He didn't kill her? Just so happened he had her money, bank cards, etc; dyed his hair and ran a taxi marathon--almost 1500 miles into Chile. Just normal every day activities...................................:loser:

 

[nervous_nellie]

I think you make a good point for her going there. He would never admit he was going to sell the puter for money (needed it=guilty of motive) and the same with him conniving her to use her skills to win at poker on line. Never admit that.....toooo big of an ego....a poker "instructor" needing help?????

He didn't kill her? Just so happened he had her money, bank cards, etc; dyed his hair and ran a taxi marathon--almost 1500 miles into Chile. Just normal every day activities...................................:loser:

it was mentioned that he had had one of his online poker accounts frozen earlier in the year (dont remember when?? anyone??) so possibly he needed her to sign him on under her name or her sign on as him or something weird like that and get him out of debt on one of these sites(not necessarily the site that was talked about earlier) ?? who knows - just trying to think of what he could have needed her for that she would have agreed to...

eta: i know it was said that he was frozen for suspicion of cheating - but since it has come to light that he really wasnt a very good poker player maybe he was negative on funds from losing or owed the site money.... i have never played on any of these sorta things so i have no idea how they work...

 

[hollyblue]

OT: LMAO..Just turned on TV to TMC...1934 The Show Off..1st scene: Spencer Tracy talking about the invention of the................lighter.

 

[suzihawk]

Like everyone else, I've given a lot of thought to why Stephany went to his room in the first place and I keep coming up empty. A lot of well thought out and possible theories, but we'll never know, IMO.

We know he had the capability of being 'charming' and I'm sure he was able to disarm her if she initially felt uncomfortable with the idea of going to a 'stranger's' room so that she'd have no reason to feel she was in any danger.

Her odd demeanor in following him to the room can be explained by any number of things. Maybe it was simply fatigue? They'd been gambling all night, after all. She laid her head on the table and looked very tired at one point.

We've all been in the position at one time or another of going into a situation thinking everything was okay while simultaneously your subconcious knows better. We only realize these subconcious warnings afterwards when we've escaped some sort of disaster. "Wow, I shouldn't have done that. I knew something was wrong." Maybe her body language was reflecting her subconcious and inate feelings of danger ?

As to her purpose for going to his room and how he convinced to go with him? Again, we'll never really know. To attempt a guess, I'd have to first know if he lured her there with the expressed intent of killing her or whether it was the result of his rage over something that occurred once he got her in the room. I haven't decided which that is.

 

[Peliman]

My guess is they were a little chummy at the casino and Joran talked her into giving him a ride to TAC and enticing her into his room while telling her about how to win poker online. He knew she had money and tried to obtain a loan and was denied. His ego couldn't take rejection so he overpowered her, killed her brutally and took what he thought he wanted.

Being somewhat drunk he didn't realize his mistakes until afterward and fled.

End of story for Joran, hello Lurigancho.

 

[hollyblue]

My guess is they were a little chummy at the casino and Joran talked her into giving him a ride to TAC and enticing her into his room while telling her about how to win poker online. He knew she had money and tried to obtain a loan and was denied. His ego couldn't take rejection so he overpowered her, killed her brutally and took what he thought he wanted.

Being somewhat drunk he didn't realize his mistakes until afterward and fled.

End of story for Joran, hello Lurigancho.

Agree with one minor adjustment: was entitled.

 

[FLNY]

well, i can tell you that i have boatloads of lighters...big ones, little ones - you name it i got it. i leave lighters everywhere i go in cars and houses - everywhere. and i dont carry a purse either so i have to agree that for her to have had TWO lighters in her pockets is odd. even one lighter is odd if she doesnt smoke something...

the video of her and him in the lobby waiting for his key is odd too. she does look to be hanging her head, but i dont think she is trying to not be identified - i think if she was doing that she would have let her hair down to help hide her face. i have to agree that she was only intending to stay for a short time and also why she was parked in the temp. parking. is there any outdoor video from the tac? not the one where it shows her walking into the casino but anything that shows them arriving at the hostel?

the text to the friend saying she was on her way upstairs to HER room sounds like to me that she may have been leading the friend to believe that she was at home and not still out gambling. all the reports of sf from friends and family have been glowing - the only contention pointed out early on was about her gambling habits and that her father was not happy with these habits...so i have to suspect that this is what she was trying to hide from the friend and what she may have felt ashamed of (if she did) and why she was with jvds...
since she was the superior gambler maybe he wanted her to win him some money online because we know he was low on funds,etc. this is what is really niggling at me the most is WHY did she go there with him? probably never know now ... but WHY did she have to go there?

You know, we haven't seen any mention of the others at the poker table that night with JVDS and Stephany. Not their names or any statements. I'm sure they all must have been questionned thoroughly by now. So, unless none of them spoke English...and if Joran and Stephany were only speaking in English....then someone at that table must have overheard their conversation and have a clue as to why they were leaving together. Maybe this is significant information that the police are withholding at this point.

JMOO

 

[faw720]

In my humble opinion he knew what he was going to do. She was a big winner, she had a car, she was a woman going up to his private hotel room. The walls were soundproof. His moves were lethal. ( My ex husband, a cop taught me one move to kill a person- shove their nose into their forehead with your palm, cartilage goes straight to the brain ) He has opportunity, motive and ability. And this time there is evidence of him staring like a lost puppy at the camera.
Yes.

I agree. I also think Joran was well aware of the anniversary of Natalee's disappearance & decided to have himself a little celebration. For several years I worked in a facility(office person/not counselor) that treated emotionally troubled youngsters. There was an commonly accepted belief that anniversaries hold great significance for those whose lives have been radically altered by a specific event. I am assuming that those of us here on this forum are "normal", but I'm sure that many of you remember significant dates in your life such as birth, marriage & deaths.

As for why Stephanie went to Joran's room...............I'm guessing that he probably borrowed money from her at the casino & told her that he had a hidden stash in his room & that he would re-pay her. Since they both loved playing poker they probably had earlier established a rapport some time during the tournament. Trusting a stranger would be much easier if you had something in common.