Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #5

[md89]

I will be honest and say that I wasn't comfortable with the way the Dutch (Aruba) media protrayed Natalee. I can't figure out what the Dutch see in Joran or what the family connections are but they insist that the world see Joran as a good boy when he has continually proved otherwise.

I can say from my own experience (as I live in the Netherlands) that most of the people here are disgusted with Jorans behaviour and that they would love to see him behind bars. Most of the people here are convinced he had something to do with Natalees disappearance and they can't understand (just like the rest of the world) why he remains unpunished for that.

The Dutch criminal law is ridiculous in my opinion. When you rape someone here, chances are that you spend only 2 years (!!) in prison where you have your own private cell with tv and sometimes even a playstation. Prisoners can cook their own food and can call someone every day. It's like sleeping at the Hilton only the pool is missing.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

No, that is not true. The defendant certainly can, and should, provide a defense for himself, but the Public Prosecutor's Office must meet the burden of proof in order to secure a conviction. In fact, there are layers of supervisory oversight in place to ensure the PPO meets its burden of proof, and that they follow proper procedure, just like in the US and other nations.

I think in practice the legal system runs roughshod over citizens who do not have the means or the money to fight (just like in the good ole USA), but it's certainly not legal.

Isn't their "burden of proof" alot more lienent though? Like - they have both of them going into the room together; and only he ever comes back out and no one else ever goes in. At that point the "burden of proof" shifts to Joran's defense to "prove" or show that someone else did go in there and kill her (while he was getting coffee).

Plus we just don't know all they have. If they have HIS clothes with HER blood on them - its over. The end.

 

[MCDRAW]

I'm going to respond to your post by simply saying that what you have written about Anita Van der Sloot is far from the truth. I know Anita and have corresponded with her many times throughout the Holloway case and I can assure you that you will not find a kinder person anywhere. I'm really offended that people here are blaming her for what Joran has done. I've hesitated to post in this forum because my opinion differs greatly than the majority of this board and also because of the respect that I do have for Anita but to set the record straight, I can assure all of you that Anita is not a person that insists that Joran lie, cheat, steal, or whatever the case may be.

I don't know Anita Vandersloot. I only know how she presented herself in the Holloway case. In my opinion, she tried to make Beth Holloway out to be some terrible monster for wanting answers in her daughter's disappearance. She showed no compassion for Natalee's family. She showed only concern for her family. So I can't see her as a nice person. I don't think she would insist that Joran lie or coverup but I don't know that she would insist that he tell the truth either. My heart goes out to her and Joran's younger sibilings. He alone is responsible.

 

[jilly]

I think a lot of the misinformation is coming from translation errors and ignorance of decomp. The ME was clear that the injuries to Stephany were in the areas of the back of her head, neck, and back. He opines that those regions struck the edge of the exposed wood bedframe with sufficient force to kill her. That is straightforward and plausible.

The account her brother gave is that Stephany was covered in blood and wounds and was unrecognizable and missing an eye - leading to the impression she was brutally beaten. I think what the brother saw was 72 hours of decomp. I doubt he'd ever seen a decomposed body at 72 hours (most are frozen or embalmed to prevent this event). What he would have seen was a body that was grossly distended and discolored with the early gases of decomp and yes, she would have likely been extremely swollen and discolored and probably leaking decomp fluids (sorry).

After hearing the brother's account, the mistranslation of "raquet" into "bat" lead to the obvious thought she'd been beaten severely with a bat, which is not the case at all. She was killed by a blow to the back of her head that caused hemmorhage (according to the ME).

It's likely he didn't plan to kill her at all (at least not openly in that room). Even he is not stupid enough to purposely parade his victim into the lobby in front of clerks, kill her less than 3 hours later, then run. I think something happened that pissed him off and he either flung her across the room onto the bed frame, or deliberately bashed her head into the bedframe in a moment of extreme irritation or anger.

Excellent post! ITA! Just would add that Fuhrman spoke to 2 MEs.

 

[justus4all]

IMO...Joran is going to have a HARD time CONVINCING.....SOME ONE ELSE...killed her.....when the video shows him and her...ENTERING his room and ONLY himself LEAVING...and no other persons entering and leaving at the estimated time of her death...and THEN him telling the staff "not to disturb his guest"...KNOWING she was dead...to give him time to place himself far from the scene..

Leaves NO ROOM for argument...all in my own opinion

 

[Wise Old Owl]

IMO...Joran is going to have a HARD time CONVINCING.....SOME ONE ELSE...killed her.....when the video shows him and her...ENTERING his room and ONLY himself LEAVING...and no other persons entering and leaving at the estimated time of her death...and THEN him telling the staff "not to disturb his guest"...KNOWING she was dead...to give him time to place himself far from the scene..

Leaves NO ROOM for argument...all in my own opinion

ITA then add in that he fled over 2500 miles; no one had any contact from Stephany AFTER that day.

We are only talking about 4 - 5 hours at the very most. They enter at 5:30ish and he leaves for coffee around 8:30ish - then he leaves again for good 9:00ish.

Even though she wasn't found until Wedneday doesn't matter. ME's can give a window of TOD - especially since it wasn't that long.

 

[CharlestonGal]

Isn't their "burden of proof" alot more lienent though? Like - they have both of them going into the room together; and only he ever comes back out and no one else ever goes in. At that point the "burden of proof" shifts to Joran's defense to "prove" or show that someone else did go in there and kill her (while he was getting coffee).

Plus we just don't know all they have. If they have HIS clothes with HER blood on them - its over. The end.

Oh no, don't get me wrong - I don't think the prosecution is going to have any problem meeting its burden of proof or securing a conviction in this case.

I'm just saying the rules and procedures of the Peruvian legal system are not much different than ours, despite common perceptions. There is corruption certainly, but the laws and constitution are very similar in structure to the US and rest of the western world.

I think the Peruvians will follow procedure in this case and I'm becoming more confident that the trial will be fair, and I think he'll be convicted in the end. Fair and square.

 

[suzihawk]

I'm going to respond to your post by simply saying that what you have written about Anita Van der Sloot is far from the truth. I know Anita and have corresponded with her many times throughout the Holloway case and I can assure you that you will not find a kinder person anywhere. I'm really offended that people here are blaming her for what Joran has done. I've hesitated to post in this forum because my opinion differs greatly than the majority of this board and also because of the respect that I do have for Anita but to set the record straight, I can assure all of you that Anita is not a person that insists that Joran lie, cheat, steal, or whatever the case may be.

I appreciate your post. She seems like an intelligent, well educated woman. As such she was charged with the care of children as a teacher and educator. One would assume she would attempt to intervene as she became aware of her son's unhealthy behavior (i.e.beating the family pet to death) rather than enable and defend him.

Even if Paulus and Joran 'protected' her and kept her out of the loop, I don't believe she could be in such denial as to not see the reality of what was going on and what eventually occurred. For that, I have no respect for her. JMO

 

[justus4all]

ITA then add in that he fled over 2500 miles; no one had any contact from Stephany AFTER that day.

We are only talking about 4 - 5 hours at the very most. They enter at 5:30ish and he leaves for coffee around 8:30ish - then he leaves again for good 9:00ish.

Even though she wasn't found until Wedneday doesn't matter. ME's can give a window of TOD - especially since it wasn't that long.

EXACTLY....so.....what's his defense???...She beat HERSELF to death???

It's going to VERRRRRRYYYYYYYY interesting to see how he twists and turns ON THIS ONE!!!!!

 

[one_girl_rev]

Very strange videos. Also, there is no conversation between them. You would expect some type of interaction, especially if they just met. You would think that when they arrived at the room, he would have made some indication that this is it, or open the door and let her pass in first. Nothing. I wonder what motivated her to go back to his room.

I am curious about this, too. Interesting observation about the conversation. There is something very bizarre about the whole exchange... and the way she keeps her head down screams to me of regret and shame. I feel like she knew she should not be doing it.

And it's a shame.

 

[kpass]

I am still trying to catch up on thread 3 but wanted to go ahead and ask this, Why was JVS never arrested for the human trafficking/prostitotion thing in Thailand? Everyone is screaming that this would not have happened had the FBI arrested him for extortion, well the same can be said about the trafficking, why was he not arrested when he was caught on tape?
This monster has gotten off for way to long/ I am glad he is finally going to be off the street, however I do have to say I'm not happy with the conditions of the prison, I never think that torture is okay, I do beleive in an eye for an eye though so if he is found guilty he should face eath, not turtore in aprison where you are starved and raped and have rats and cockroaches and aid and other diseases. I know its not a popular opinion but come on uys we are better than wishing someone to be tortured for 30 years.

I DO believe in his being tortured, raped, etc. for the rest of his life! Sorry. Natalee & Stephany's families will be tortured the rest of their lives because of HIM!!!


:furious:

 

[suzihawk]

IMO...Joran is going to have a HARD time CONVINCING.....SOME ONE ELSE...killed her.....when the video shows him and her...ENTERING his room and ONLY himself LEAVING...and no other persons entering and leaving at the estimated time of her death...and THEN him telling the staff "not to disturb his guest"...KNOWING she was dead...to give him time to place himself far from the scene..

Leaves NO ROOM for argument...all in my own opinion

Yup! God willing, those surviellance cameras were properaly operating and trained on that door from the moment they both entered until her body was discovered.

 

[Beyond Belief]

The coffee run was to survey what was going on outside.
I am moving into the direction of what i feel about Casey, he's just plain crazy.

 

[SleuthyGal]

I don't feel sorry for this guy at all. IMO he is a serial killer. His age has nothing to do with it; JVDS is a psychopath and has exhibited increasingly heinous behaviors. Crazy means someone doesn't know right from wrong...this guy knew the difference, absolutely. He's not crazy; he's evil.

His parents coddled him and protected him and he has caused immeasurable pain and suffering to multiple families.

The fact that he chose to commit this murder in a country that has one of the toughest jail systems is too bad; it was his choice. This guy is an example of the worst of the worst: a stalker, a pimp, a rapist, an extortionist, and a sociopath with no remorse. He said (on tape with Peter Devries) he doesn't lose one night of sleep over Natalee Holloway's death. Think about that the next time you (any of you) start to feel sorry for this

He's a grown man, a 6' 5" bully, and at least a double-murderer.

 

[one_girl_rev]

If comforts can be bought in the prison systems, I think Joran will have access to them all. Somewhere, someplace someone will throw him a lifeline. There are just people like that out there in the world. Unfortunately.:furious:

I want to believe that Joran will never know comfort again and that justice will be served.

But as you said, something might flip this whole thing around and his smug face will once again make out into the world. I believe that the extortion charges brought against by America are going to be some kind of match point and his fate will go either way.

I hope that he mans up and confesses, especially if he's killed more women on a global basis. I don't believe Natalee & Stephany are the only two, it doesn't seem possible. I also think that the timing is completely coincidental and that he kills who he wants when he wants without a second thought.

 

[jilly]

Liken her to Jackie Peterson, the woman lives in denial, most likely. Couldn't the Peterson's mantra been "deny, deny, deny".

I would agree that she's in denial but not in the same mean pod as JP. All along with the Holloway case I considered joran's mother to be oblivious and naive.

 

[one_girl_rev]

To start, he can point to the location of Natalee's remains. That may be difficult if she was taken out to sea. But there must be some evidence that can show he's telling the truth.

I think him standing at a beach and pointing to it is going to bring little relief to anyone. And as far as the truth goes, I don't think Joran knows what the truth is anymore. He's a psychopath and has probably convinced himself of everything but.

 

[CharlestonGal]

The coffee run was to survey what was going on outside.
I am moving into the direction of what i feel about Casey, he's just plain crazy.

Yes, that is what happens to human beings when boundaries are unenforced or nonexistent. Many, many studies have shown that human behavior becomes progressively more extreme when boundaries are removed or unenforced. People start becoming a world unto themselves until they are so far beyond the pale that things like this start to happen.

Someone should have done him (and the rest of us) a favor and reeled him in long ago. Same with Casey.

 

[suzihawk]

I don't feel sorry for this guy at all. IMO he is a serial killer. His age has nothing to do with it; JVDS is a psychopath and has exhibited increasingly heinous behaviors.

His parents coddled him and protected him and he has caused immeasurable pain and suffering to multiple families.

The fact that he chose to commit this murder in a country that has one of the toughest jail systems is too bad; it was his choice. This guy is an example of the worst of the worst: a stalker, a pimp, a rapist, an extortionist, and a sociopath with no remorse. He said (on tape with Peter Devries) he doesn't lose one night of sleep over Natalee Holloway's death. Think about that the next time you (any of you) start to feel sorry for this

He's a grown man, a 6' 5" bully, and at least a double-murderer.

Bravo! :clap: Couldn't have said it better!

 

[Melanie]

"The girl's father told the AP that video cameras had also tracked the couple as they walked before dawn Sunday to van der Sloot's hotel from a casino in Lima's upscale Miraflores district where the two met playing poker."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2010-06-05-joran-van-der-sloot-peru-killing_N.htm?csp=hf

I wonder when/if we'll get to see the video of them walking from the casino to the hotel? I'd like to see their interaction with each other, her manner, if she seemed lethargic, etc.

Also from the same link: "My daughter resisted," Flores told the AP. "Under the fingernails of my daughter there are traces, evidence, that's why they didn't permit her cremation." Flores said he expected her to be exhumed for DNA testing, and Tejada said that was likely."

Dr. Cesar Tejada is the deputy medical examiner. He agrees that it's likely Stephany's body will be exhumed to search for trace evidence under her nails? Why didn't they gather that evidence before they buried her? That is bizarre.

I can't find a link, so take it for what it's worth. I heard that Peru doesn't rely on DNA evidence to convict. And that there's so much overwhelming evidence to already convict. I don't think they mess around much (but not someplace I want to visit).

Again - just going from memory here.

Thx.

Mel