Phone Calls and Phone Records

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Wendy101 said:
Wait! Wasn't this phone tampered with? How can we trust anything on the phone .. Anything could have been deleted
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I'm not sure that tampering is necessarily the right word or that it should cast doubt on everything else related to the phone.
What we know is that there were some voicemail messages that appear to have been 'deleted' after she'd been missing for a few days.
That doesn't invalidate the ping information or the records of what calls were incoming or outgoing and when.
It simply means that the actual content of those messages is no longer stored and can't be re-played.

It's not even clear that those messages were deliberately or consciously deleted.
We do know that TH's brother tapped into her account and listened to those messages.
What's not certain is whether by listening to those messages and not saving them he freed up some space in her inbox by allowing them to now be overwritten or if he (or somebody else) actively chose to delete selected messages.
 
FWIW this is what I've taken away from the key phone records that we're aware of.

2:12 TH calls Zipperer’s to say that she has difficulty finding the location
2:27 Autotrader calls TH and she states that she’s on her way to the Avery job

Some people have inferred that this means that she skipped Zipperer’s to go straight to Avery’s with a plan to return to the Z’s later. The Zipperer’s recollection of the timeframe is certainly jumbled, however given that
a. Mrs Z was outside raking the garden at the time of that call
and
b. TH makes no mention of a problem with the Zipperer appointment to Autotrader at 2:27
I tend to concur with Limaes that TH probably spotted Mrs Z in the garden shortly after the call and was just finishing up ready to go to Avery’s when Autotrader called her.

2:41 ‘Mystery’ incoming call which is CFNA. I don’t know and I don’t think it’s been established whether this was something TH set manually or an automatic feature of some sort.
4:35 SA calls TH’s phone and it goes straight to Voicemail. It’s been established at this point that the phone was switched off or disabled.


IMO it’s likely that TH was dead by the time of the 4:35 call and the phone was disposed of at this point, so the critical period is that 2 hour slot between 2:30 and 4:30ish.

I’ve seen lots of speculation about the lack of phone activity during those 2 hours, I personally lean towards her being out of cell coverage for some or all of that time frame. What’s interesting to me during that period is not so much that she doesn’t make any outgoing calls, but there are no incoming calls recorded either. Nothing else that comes in and gets logged as CFNA (whatever that actually means) and nothing that comes in and is picked up by Voicemail.

I know with my phone today, if it’s switched off or the battery is dead callers still get through to Voicemail and there would still be a record of that incoming call. If I’m out of coverage or there’s a network problem callers often get an automated recording stating that the ‘phone they’re trying to call is currently unavailable’ and I see no record of those attempts.

Did it work the same way in the 10 years ago and in a different country? I don’t know and nobody else seems to either, but in the absence of a definitive answer I’m inclined to go with my own experience and infer that there may have been a coverage issue during that time. That’s also supported by RH(?) stating that coverage was terrible in that area.
 
Sarah~ Just a few thoughts... CFNA, means Call Forward No Answer. From all the research that we have done, it seems that she would have to manually set this. We don't know if it was just for that call or if it was for all incoming calls to be sent to VM after that was set, although it's the only one that has CFNA beside it. At some point, through cingular, you could actually do the Call Forwarding from the website too, but it's unclear if that was still available in Oct 2005 (it is somewhere in this thread lol).

2:27 call with Dawn from Auto Trader. IMO there are issues with her testimony, and I've stated those before.

Cell coverage ~ the only person that says the coverage was bad, is Ryan (but he's never been there). No LE officer has said that, no one else. If we take what Dawn says at truth, at 2:41, she should have been at Avery's... no one has said coverage was bad there. PSturm surely didn't have any troubles getting coverage to call Pagel. TH managed to speak to AutoTrader for 4 1/2 minutes and the call was never dropped.... presumably, she was somewhere between Zipperer's and Avery's.

I am somewhat disappointed that we don't know more about the calls ... and don't understand why the defense didn't go into them more, and then the Kratz "spreadsheet" of calls was just ridiculous, why they agreed to use that is beyond me LOL They should have asked about that CFNA, and what it means, how it's done, etc. What about text messages? And then of course.... the pings! LOL

The other thing I found odd was.... no other calls that afternoon/evening? I guess maybe everyone was busy with Halloween, but it still seems somewhat strange.
 
According to the voice mail records, the 4:35 pm call did NOT go to voice mail. It registered as an incoming call but was most likely disconnected before it had a chance to go to voicemail. My presumption is that SA was trying to locate the phone.
 
BigCityAccountant said:
According to the voice mail records, the 4:35 pm call did NOT go to voice mail. It registered as an incoming call but was most likely disconnected before it had a chance to go to voicemail. My presumption is that SA was trying to locate the phone.
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For some reason--I cannot edit this....the 4:35 pm call did register on her V/M records.
 
Hmmm I think the 4:35 call went to vm, but he didnt leave a message....it was only 13 seconds long, not long enough to even get through to the beep. I can't access the docs at the moment, but others have been able to determine her message on her vm was 18 seconds IIRC. It can be determined by the length of the call on her bill, compared to the length of the message left.
 
missy1974 said:
Hmmm I think the 4:35 call went to vm, but he didnt leave a message....it was only 13 seconds long, not long enough to even get through to the beep. I can't access the docs at the moment, but others have been able to determine her message on her vm was 18 seconds IIRC. It can be determined by the length of the call on her bill, compared to the length of the message left.
Click to expand...

See my correction right below my post! It wouldn't let me edit...
 
If you look at the cell phone records, the 2:41:59 pm call registers as a voicemail for 60 seconds on TH's voicemail records. so that caller left a voice mail. Her phone records show this call to be 1:20. So, I'm assuming the voicemail message was 30 seconds long.

Most of the calls to voicemail register 1-2 minutes apart. For instance on 11/1/05 a call registers on her phone records at 09:49:02--but that call doesn't register on her voicemail records until 9:51, so there seems to be some delay between the time her phone recorded the call and the time the voicemail recorded calls.
 
What is interesting is the 1:52 pm call went to voicemail as well and registers on her V/M records as 13:54 pm (or 1:54 pm) that call doesn't have the CFNA. It is a 28 second voicemail.
 
BigCityAccountant said:
According to the voice mail records, the 4:35 pm call did NOT go to voice mail. It registered as an incoming call but was most likely disconnected before it had a chance to go to voicemail. My presumption is that SA was trying to locate the phone.
Click to expand...

Couldn't that be because of the Call forwarding? He called to ask about some other vehicle, but it went straight to VM so he just hung up without leaving a message?
 
BigCityAccountant said:
What is interesting is the 1:52 pm call went to voicemail as well and registers on her V/M records as 13:54 pm (or 1:54 pm) that call doesn't have the CFNA. It is a 28 second voicemail.
Click to expand...

AutumnDawn said:
Couldn't that be because of the Call forwarding? He called to ask about some other vehicle, but it went straight to VM so he just hung up without leaving a message?
Click to expand...

See this is where CFNA REALLY confuses me lol

I know what it stands for, but I don't understand what it actually means in practical terms.
I mean there are other calls that day which seem to go to VM, but they don't show as CFNA on the listing.
I must have missed the bit of the discussion where we established that it had to be set manually, but what does it do that's different to any of the other calls that went to VM?

In fact, scrap the bit about CFNA confusing me . . . the whole phone thing hurts my head!

> We know that the phone was turned off / disabled / probably burnt by the end of that day (I'm sure it's in the Cingular testimony, but I can't search at the moment)
> We know that despite this, calls were stilling registering on her phone and going through to her VM account - i.e. after the 31st callers were able to connect and get the message that her inbox was full and the calls are logged on her phone record.
> Therefore turning the phone off and/or destroying it doesn't prevent calls from connecting to that number.

So why are there no calls registered to her phone in that 2 hour window between approx 2:30 and 4:30?
And why are there no calls for that evening?

I still lean towards coverage issues for the former (even though I know that people have serious misgivings about RH)
But the latter? Who knows?
It's out of normal business hours and maybe as Missy suggested everyone else was too busy with their own Halloween plans . . . but I agree that just doesn't seem satisfying enough.

. . . I'm just off to bang my head against the wall!
 
Just taking a quick glance at the phone/vm records now that I'm home. Her message seems to be 19-20 seconds long, the difference in the time of the call and the voicemail time is because one is recording the time when the call is 'answered' or VM starts... VM records the end time.

In the end... SA's call at 4:35 wasn't long enough to even get to the end of the VM message since it was only 13 seconds long.

I wish we knew more about her phone habits. Did she drive while on the phone? Did she use CFNA often?
 
Ya know Sarah... I just had another look at her phone records, and I kinda forgot that we now have more than 1 day of her records. Maybe it's not so unusual for her phone not to be in use.... for example... on the 30th... her first call was at 4:41pm, and actually, she only has 4 calls registered for that whole day, and 1 of them was to her VM.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...Trial-Exhibit-361-Halbach-Cingular-Report.pdf

the "phones" give me a headache too LOL I did try to get on the way back machine to find the info on CFNA again, but it wasn't cooperating, maybe I will try later ;-) I am pretty sure that it had to be manually set though, and it required more than just hitting one button.... **unless she hit "reject" and it sent it to VM and that's how it registered (CFNA)?** Because it doesn't make sense to me that the rest of the calls after 2:41 don't also say CFNA, unless at some point she deactivated it again, which also requires manually doing it. ARGGGH LOL
 
oh and... as far as the testimony went... the best we get out of it is that by 4:35 it was turned off/battery removed/destroyed by then because it didn't "register" with a tower.

This is why I didn't understand why they didn't go after the 'pings', if nothing else, it would help pin down a time it was shut off. IMO
 
missy1974 said:
Ya know Sarah... I just had another look at her phone records, and I kinda forgot that we now have more than 1 day of her records. Maybe it's not so unusual for her phone not to be in use.... for example... on the 30th... her first call was at 4:41pm, and actually, she only has 4 calls registered for that whole day, and 1 of them was to her VM.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...Trial-Exhibit-361-Halbach-Cingular-Report.pdf

the "phones" give me a headache too LOL I did try to get on the way back machine to find the info on CFNA again, but it wasn't cooperating, maybe I will try later ;-) I am pretty sure that it had to be manually set though, and it required more than just hitting one button.... **unless she hit "reject" and it sent it to VM and that's how it registered (CFNA)?** Because it doesn't make sense to me that the rest of the calls after 2:41 don't also say CFNA, unless at some point she deactivated it again, which also requires manually doing it. ARGGGH LOL
Click to expand...

I'm glad I'm not the only one that the phone records do this to!
I try to stay away from them because they just tie me up in knots, but I keep finding myself getting sucked back in :tantrum:

You'd think that it was the one sure way to tie her movements down for that day, but that one random CFNA drives me nuts.

missy1974 said:
oh and... as far as the testimony went... the best we get out of it is that by 4:35 it was turned off/battery removed/destroyed by then because it didn't "register" with a tower.
Click to expand...

Thank you - I knew the testimony said something to that effect, but I couldn't recall the exact wording or timings off the top of my head.
 
Sarah said:
I'm glad I'm not the only one that the phone records do this to!
I try to stay away from them because they just tie me up in knots, but I keep finding myself getting sucked back in :tantrum:

You'd think that it was the one sure way to tie her movements down for that day, but that one random CFNA drives me nuts.



Thank you - I knew the testimony said something to that effect, but I couldn't recall the exact wording or timings off the top of my head.
Click to expand...

BBM ~ I think we should just blame BCA
:giggle:
 
Just like the CNFA call that is 1:20 its likely someone leaving a message.
When the phone is not on the cell network it doesn't need to Forward the call to the Voice Mail, as it is not ringing the phone.
IE the call at 1:20 on the 31st rang the handset, no one answered so it forwarded to voicemail. The 11/1 call the system could not find the phone in an allotted time frame so it went to voicemail. No forwarding required since the handset is not ringing and the call was not sent to the handset.
 
I wonder if KZ traveled around the areas pinging different cell towers with her own phone or someone who works for her.
 
I bet she did the CFNA....maybe she was tired of whoever had been calling that appears unknown on the phone records...

What drives me crazy...

The Phone Records
The lack of blood evidence
The remains
Zipperer
The blinker light
Just the RAV4 period
The Pelvis Bone
Damage to front of vehicle
Mystery lights at the salvage yard
Lenk, Colborn, Remiker, Weigert, the crime lab, the FBI

:gaah:
 
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