POI: Michael Pak

[Peter Brendt]

Yes, I do believe you're correct about the December time period for media involvement.

I wasn't following the current focus of the discussion (media info) with my post. (I likely had some sort of ADD moment ) I was just thinking how the knowledge of SG's 911 call changes my views on many aspects of this case.

Well, but following that thought further down the road, how would the media hype change the views and therefor later versions of testimonies from the involved persons?
Take GC as an example:

- in the night, it happens, he does the right thing. He parks the girl at the door and calls the police.

- Some months later, all media hell breaks lose because the GB4 are found. Now suddenly everybody cares also about SG, because they have to fiull pages. The amazing part is, that, aside of local journalists, there were not many of the big outlet writers actually there anymore. From that time on, the big copying started and especially some of those outlets considered here as "doubt-free sources" were only copy editors and never ever, a copy was better than the original (there exists even a mathematical prove why this is that way).
Now, back to GC. I bet, when the first reality free journalist asked him "why didn't you let her in your house", he stumbled. Of course, the reasonable answer would be "because you don't let a drugged hooker in paranoia in your house at five in the morning". But that isn't the answer, you give the media. And so, what became later the media version 1 was created. A simple human reaction.

- over the course of the next weeks and months, GC comes under pressure. There is the Scalisa outbreak and even while that one was even for most media guys too bad to touch it, it spread. And even the nicer colored version of GC's story is questioned. Not because of the obvious behavioral glitch in it, but because there were a thousand people who had other ideas, what he should have done, regardless whether any of those ideas was realistic or not. So he gets more careful in his wordings.

- long after all of that happened, he had a knee surgery and used for some days a crutch or walking stick. A million people in the Internet conclude, he is a liar, he wasn't even able to walk to the gate ... dooh. But since some minor outlets picked up on that ... well. Not happy. Makes him even more a burnt man just for opening that door that morning.

- the prime times come, for example 48 Hours. GC, a man who never was in front of a camera, nervous like hell, has to retell this story. He knows, every word will be scrutinized, twisted, reinterpreted, he just got out of that mill. But he can't tell the TV guys to go to hell, because they would just put that in the show, out of context and color him another possible suspect. So he is forced to play along. And that creates the next version.

Seriously, if GC would come again in such a situation, he will porbably think twice about calling the police or do the right thing. If he would have closed the door, ignore SG, maybe pretending to have seen nothing, there wouldn't be a million people out in the Internet trying to paint him as liar or senile. Look at his body language in the TV interview over time.

 

[Gerontion]

MP has told at least a half dozen different stories, some similar, some with the same few basic statements and embellished with new details and some omitting those same details. He is not a believable witness and he does have a basic reason to tell stories that make himself appear more helpful and innocent.

However, MP stated VERY early on that he was the initial contact with Brewer and MP mentioned that SG had another appointment lined up in LI after Brewer. Based on either MP or JB saying that MP set the appointment with Brewer, one would have been expected to believe that MP set the third appointment of the evening (which apparently never happened...unless that was the 15 minute trip - a 3rd client.) Those two stories have now faded into history and are no longer being referenced by any of the key players.

JustK, this is the first time, as far as I can recall, that I have ever heard about another appointment for SG in LI after Brewer. I have only just begun posting (I registered when the forum moved to the Parking Lot), but I have been following this forum since even before it became it's own forum. Somehow I missed that.

 

[Just K]

It was spoken about by April 2011...as that is when I first logged on. The very first interviews with or about MP said that she had the NYC job, then JB and that originally the plan was to head to one other client before going back to NJ.

The very early, possibly archived, threads had discussion on it but there is no finding the original interview with either Pak or Dias/Diaz who spoke about three jobs being planned.

 

[Gerontion]

Well, but following that thought further down the road, how would the media hype change the views and therefor later versions of testimonies from the involved persons?
Take GC as an example:

- in the night, it happens, he does the right thing. He parks the girl at the door and calls the police.

- Some months later, all media hell breaks lose because the GB4 are found. Now suddenly everybody cares also about SG, because they have to fiull pages. The amazing part is, that, aside of local journalists, there were not many of the big outlet writers actually there anymore. From that time on, the big copying started and especially some of those outlets considered here as "doubt-free sources" were only copy editors and never ever, a copy was better than the original (there exists even a mathematical prove why this is that way).
Now, back to GC. I bet, when the first reality free journalist asked him "why didn't you let her in your house", he stumbled. Of course, the reasonable answer would be "because you don't let a drugged hooker in paranoia in your house at five in the morning". But that isn't the answer, you give the media. And so, what became later the media version 1 was created. A simple human reaction.

- over the course of the next weeks and months, GC comes under pressure. There is the Scalisa outbreak and even while that one was even for most media guys too bad to touch it, it spread. And even the nicer colored version of GC's story is questioned. Not because of the obvious behavioral glitch in it, but because there were a thousand people who had other ideas, what he should have done, regardless whether any of those ideas was realistic or not. So he gets more careful in his wordings.

- long after all of that happened, he had a knee surgery and used for some days a crutch or walking stick. A million people in the Internet conclude, he is a liar, he wasn't even able to walk to the gate ... dooh. But since some minor outlets picked up on that ... well. Not happy. Makes him even more a burnt man just for opening that door that morning.

- the prime times come, for example 48 Hours. GC, a man who never was in front of a camera, nervous like hell, has to retell this story. He knows, every word will be scrutinized, twisted, reinterpreted, he just got out of that mill. But he can't tell the TV guys to go to hell, because they would just put that in the show, out of context and color him another possible suspect. So he is forced to play along. And that creates the next version.

Seriously, if GC would come again in such a situation, he will porbably think twice about calling the police or do the right thing. If he would have closed the door, ignore SG, maybe pretending to have seen nothing, there wouldn't be a million people out in the Internet trying to paint him as liar or senile. Look at his body language in the TV interview over time.

I submit to you that GC never called 911. If you know that he did, tell me what time he did. For example, this is from the link below:

After 5 a.m.: Gilbert runs out of Brewer's house to the home of a neighbor, Gustav Coletti. She told him her life was in danger, but bolted and ran when he said he would call police.
The last reported sighting of Gilbert was closer to the inlet near the home of another neighbor, Barbara Brennan, who called police at 5:22 a.m. Police came within 10 minutes of the call, but could not find her, Varrone said.

http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/cops-remains-likely-those-of-shannan-gilbert-1.3385742

 

[Peter Brendt]

I submit to you that GC never called 911. If you know that he did, tell me what time he did. For example, this is from the link below:

After 5 a.m.: Gilbert runs out of Brewer's house to the home of a neighbor, Gustav Coletti. She told him her life was in danger, but bolted and ran when he said he would call police.
The last reported sighting of Gilbert was closer to the inlet near the home of another neighbor, Barbara Brennan, who called police at 5:22 a.m. Police came within 10 minutes of the call, but could not find her, Varrone said.

http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/cops-remains-likely-those-of-shannan-gilbert-1.3385742

I can't say the exact time when GC called 911. However, I can prove, he called, how is that?
Because if he didn't call, how would he have known to wait at the gate for a police car? He waited there, so he had knowledge. Knoweldge ha could only have if he made the call. Simply that.

 

[Gerontion]

I thought that MP was accounted for on the 911 call when he was asking her about the movie? As in it was a fact that LE new for sure he was on the 911 call? Could be wrong maybe I read it wrong.

Upon further research, it turns out you are very close to the truth here. Pak did reveal that his voice can be heard on SG's 911.
But as to what he can be heard talking about, I don't have a clue.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/06/jersey_city_prostitute_still_m.html

 

[Peter Brendt]

Upon further research, it turns out you are very close to the truth here. Pak did reveal that his voice can be heard on SG's 911.
But as to what he can be heard talking about, I don't have a clue.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/06/jersey_city_prostitute_still_m.html

Well, at least, this clears up whether MP was aware of the 911 call or not then. Next step, what would be his conclusion? How many minutes would he give himself before leaving to avoid police?

 

[Gerontion]

Well, at least, this clears up whether MP was aware of the 911 call or not then. Next step, what would be his conclusion? How many minutes would he give himself before leaving to avoid police?

It depends. It can be deduced that he KNEW that SG was not able to tell the dispatcher her location. It can be deduced that he did NOT correct SG when she told the dispatcher that she was at "jones beach", or "fire island" or wherever. It can be deduced that he did NOT say to SG, "no Shannan, we aren't at jones beach, tell them we are at Joe Brewers of Oak Beach". I would maintain that MP was not in any way concerned about the fact that SG was on the phone with 911. He knew that they didn't know where she was.
Whether or not SG or MP made the appointment with Brewer is academic. The fact is that during the time that SG was on the 911 call, she did not her location.
This is why MP got upset when GC (PURPORTEDLY) told him that he (GC) had called "the police". And THAT is the next step.

 

[Peter Brendt]

It depends. It can be deduced that he KNEW that SG was not able to tell the dispatcher her location. It can be deduced that he did NOT correct SG when she told the dispatcher that she was at "jones beach", or "fire island" or wherever. It can be deduced that he did NOT say to SG, "no Shannan, we aren't at jones beach, tell them we are at Joe Brewers of Oak Beach". I would maintain that MP was not in any way concerned about the fact that SG was on the phone with 911. He knew that they didn't know where she was.
Whether or not SG or MP made the appointment with Brewer is academic. The fact is that during the time that SG was on the 911 call, she did not her location.
This is why MP got upset when GC (PURPORTEDLY) told him that he (GC) had called "the police". And THAT is the next step.

So. at this time, MP knows, two calls went to 911, one for sure with a correct location. He must have known, his time runs out or he risks to run in the police. And his only way out would be that gate.
So, how sure are we, he actually tried to find her after he left GC? I mean, we discussed, that, if he searched his time window would grow narrow and all of that, but how do we know, he searched at all. GC went in to tell his wife, then a few minutes later to the gate ... so MP could have at that point left already?

 

[Gerontion]

So. at this time, MP knows, two calls went to 911, one for sure with a correct location. He must have known, his time runs out or he risks to run in the police. And his only way out would be that gate.
So, how sure are we, he actually tried to find her after he left GC? I mean, we discussed, that, if he searched his time window would grow narrow and all of that, but how do we know, he searched at all. GC went in to tell his wife, then a few minutes later to the gate ... so MP could have at that point left already?

We are not there yet. I still have my doubts that GC completed a call to 911. I researched it bit more today. Here are pieces from several of his versions:
"as I was dialing 911........SG ran off"
"I started to dial 911........SG ran off"
"when I went to call the police........SG took off"
Did he ever get a dispatcher on the line? How long was he on the call for? What did he say?
I think, IMHO, when SG "took off" he didn't stay on the phone, if he ever was on it. You know he had his eyes on her as she took off, ran and fell down his steps, ran into the middle of the street, saw MP coming, ran under the boat, etc. By now, GC himself is down by the street and has the "conversation" with MP. So, when did he make the call?
Remember, MP says that GC told him "I am going to call the police".
GC says he told MP that he already had.

 

[Vivalor]

Upon further research, it turns out you are very close to the truth here. Pak did reveal that his voice can be heard on SG's 911.
But as to what he can be heard talking about, I don't have a clue.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/06/jersey_city_prostitute_still_m.html

Whoa!! I think this was the first time I was told I was right on here and even then I was only very close to it...lol
I remembered hearing that because in the video of MP it seemed like he was tripping over his words. As if he didn't want to tell a lie that LE would know was a lie. Like getting it right on what he may have been heard saying on the 911 call. MP came off very sketchy in his interview. There were things he almost acted like he didn't know but one would think...How could you forget? I think any normal person that was there that night would be going threw the events of that night in their head over and over again.

Now, about if GC made a phone call to LE is a very good question. Not sure if maybe I am thinking off track here. But it seems to me that if SG call to 911 ended at 5:14 and BB call was made at 5:22 that actually doesn't leave her much time at all to stop by GC house.
Makes me wonder a few things.
If she had stopped by GC first then he didn't let her in and she took off right away and this wouldn't leave GC time to call 911 before MP driving up and going out to talk to him. Makes me think that after he realized that SG was in fact being followed he realized how serious this really was and hurried in to call. This being after MP went after SG after GC told him not to. Not only that but MP says in ASK part 5 that GC said he was going to call the police. In all honesty MP has no real reason to lie about that.
I could see how GC would retrace what he said and lie a little maybe feeling a little guilty for not taking SG serious the first time around.
Or was SG seen by BB first and then went to GC house?
Because it wasn't till I really started to think about it but something does seem odd about there only being 8 min between the end of SG 911 call and BB 911 call with no real statement saying when GC called.
With SG first having to run to GC house, stand in his door for a moment, call 911 (which would take more then a min), SG running out to the road and pausing looking back for a moment, then hiding under a boat well GC talked to MP, then taking off running. How much time would that really take? Could this have maybe been after she was seen by BB? Which would then trick up GC time to get to the gate and this making it so that SG didn't have to be seen by BB after GC 911 call?

 

[Vivalor]

“Well first off she comes banging on the door, yelling and screaming for help. I was shaving and gettin’ ready to go upstate. So I come out and open the door and she came in. And she stands right here,” he says, moving to the exact spot inside where she had stood. “That’s as far as she got. She kept on yelling for help. And I kept on saying to her, ‘What’s the matter. Tell me what’s the matter and I’ll help ya.’ And she just kept on yellin’ ‘help, help me’. And then she started to fall backwards. So I turned around, picked up the phone and called police right way. And I turned to her afterwards, hung up the phone and said ‘I called the police. They’re on the way here. Somebody will help ya’. As soon as I said that - out the door she went.”

I for some reason think that you don't just turn your back call police then turn around and be done with the call.
I've had to call 911 before they try to keep you on the line and it don't just take a second.
Also I'd post a link to where I got that but it was a blog and not sure if that is against the rules. If anyone really wants to see the whole thing I will send a privet message with the link.

 

[Gerontion]

Vivalor, I remember that version by Gus. Very comprehensive. But I still have my doubts. We had talked about all of these stories coming out months after the fact.
Still the GC 911 is the least documented, AFAIK.

 

[Vivalor]

Vivalor, I remember that version by Gus. Very comprehensive. But I still have my doubts. We had talked about all of these stories coming out months after the fact.
Still the GC 911 is the least documented, AFAIK.

I think your right. Over the past few days I have been trying really hard to find stuff on GC 911 call and can't find nothing. I can only find stuff on BB calling 911 at 5:22 AM.

 

[CriminalMinds]

It was spoken about by April 2011...as that is when I first logged on. The very first interviews with or about MP said that she had the NYC job, then JB and that originally the plan was to head to one other client before going back to NJ.

The very early, possibly archived, threads had discussion on it but there is no finding the original interview with either Pak or Dias/Diaz who spoke about three jobs being planned.

i recall that as well, very early on

 

[CriminalMinds]

I submit to you that GC never called 911. If you know that he did, tell me what time he did. For example, this is from the link below:

After 5 a.m.: Gilbert runs out of Brewer's house to the home of a neighbor, Gustav Coletti. She told him her life was in danger, but bolted and ran when he said he would call police.
The last reported sighting of Gilbert was closer to the inlet near the home of another neighbor, Barbara Brennan, who called police at 5:22 a.m. Police came within 10 minutes of the call, but could not find her, Varrone said.

http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/cops-remains-likely-those-of-shannan-gilbert-1.3385742

GC call= 5:18 a.m. (IMO)

 

[Gerontion]

GC call= 5:18 a.m. (IMO)

The time fits. It would have to come between the end of Shannans call (5:14am?) and BB's call (5:22?). Any links?

 

[Gerontion]

Whoa!! I think this was the first time I was told I was right on here and even then I was only very close to it...lol
I remembered hearing that because in the video of MP it seemed like he was tripping over his words. As if he didn't want to tell a lie that LE would know was a lie. Like getting it right on what he may have been heard saying on the 911 call. MP came off very sketchy in his interview. There were things he almost acted like he didn't know but one would think...How could you forget? I think any normal person that was there that night would be going threw the events of that night in their head over and over again.

Now, about if GC made a phone call to LE is a very good question. Not sure if maybe I am thinking off track here. But it seems to me that if SG call to 911 ended at 5:14 and BB call was made at 5:22 that actually doesn't leave her much time at all to stop by GC house.
Makes me wonder a few things.
If she had stopped by GC first then he didn't let her in and she took off right away and this wouldn't leave GC time to call 911 before MP driving up and going out to talk to him. Makes me think that after he realized that SG was in fact being followed he realized how serious this really was and hurried in to call. This being after MP went after SG after GC told him not to. Not only that but MP says in ASK part 5 that GC said he was going to call the police. In all honesty MP has no real reason to lie about that.
I could see how GC would retrace what he said and lie a little maybe feeling a little guilty for not taking SG serious the first time around.
Or was SG seen by BB first and then went to GC house?
Because it wasn't till I really started to think about it but something does seem odd about there only being 8 min between the end of SG 911 call and BB 911 call with no real statement saying when GC called.
With SG first having to run to GC house, stand in his door for a moment, call 911 (which would take more then a min), SG running out to the road and pausing looking back for a moment, then hiding under a boat well GC talked to MP, then taking off running. How much time would that really take? Could this have maybe been after she was seen by BB? Which would then trick up GC time to get to the gate and this making it so that SG didn't have to be seen by BB after GC 911 call?

I hear ya. I agree with all of that, except the part about SG possibly being seen by BB before being seen by GC. Nice post.

 

[Gerontion]

TheForeigner, can you please clarify something for me? In your SG Timeline is the following statement:

"Shannan’s earring was found in front of J. Brewer’s house by her sisters (PD missed this)
Detectives recovered Shannan’s jacket in the brush where she had run early in their initial search, but now tell the family “it’s lost.” They also say they don’t have her purse, ID, cell phone."

I am refering to the last sentence. Is this refering to the items found in the marsh?

Thanks

 

[Theforeigner]

TheForeigner, can you please clarify something for me? In your SG Timeline is the following statement:

"Shannan’s earring was found in front of J. Brewer’s house by her sisters (PD missed this)
Detectives recovered Shannan’s jacket in the brush where she had run early in their initial search, but now tell the family “it’s lost.” They also say they don’t have her purse, ID, cell phone."

I am refering to the last sentence. Is this refering to the items found in the marsh?

Thanks

I assume that is the case and that at that time those items had not yet been found, the quote you refere to, I belive was published PRIOR to that SG's belongings and body was found.