Consider this. One version of the story by GC has him telling MP that he has phoned 911. MP says "you shouldn't have done that, she's gonna be in lot of trouble". GC says to MP "so are you if you don't stay right here". A word to the wise is sufficient. To MP, this has got to come as a somewhat threatening statement. He knows the situation is rapidly deteriorating. He has no idea how long it will take LE to get there. His safest assumption would be that it is imminent. Is he going to continue his good samaritan pursuit of his "fare", or is he going to punch-out and go home?
POI: Michael Pak
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Peter Brendt
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In fact it wouldn't. He obviously didn't catch her then because
a.) GB would in that case have a story about a screaming struggling girl dragged back to the SUV right in front of his nose
b.) BB couldn't have seen her later if MP would have caught her at GC's
So, Pak had to go back to the car, still to turn and if this quote is correct, he had to assume, she went straight on from the boat she was hiding under. So if you look from GC's place, she must have taken some turns to cross through BB's view later. The best chance to make the "MP did it" theory working is at this point telepathic abilities plus UFO technology to make his SUV invisible. And a warp drive would help to be faster than light speed to travel back in time. Which, hopefully we can agree on that, is not even worthy further discussion because it is simply impossible. And we haven't even touched the other points that make that theory impossible/highly unlikely because we got us sidetracked with the more interesting question who was or was not in Brewer's house.
Peter Brendt
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I heard so much about that jacket, even several different positions, but yes, some of those positions would be along that way, assuming, she turned in a wider circle to cross later BB's view.
Vivalor
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Yeah your right I would rather know who was in JB house or if anyone at all. Also last night I did a ton of google searches on if missed calls can show up on call records. Everything and I mean every single thing I read said that not even a phone company can tell because in order to get the call to log it would have to go to voice mail other wise there is technically no connection to document it. How ever they can see if you made an out call, so it would be nice to see MP call log and I doubt that will ever happen.
I'd add links but it would be pretty simple to just google it.
I'd add links but it would be pretty simple to just google it.
Peter Brendt
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Of course, he is bailing out as fast as he can. But what then? Does he hang out outside of OB to watch what happens next? The question here is, what did he expect? Because if he expected the police would catch her and bring her in, he would may have hung around to see it happen and give some information to ACCCCCCC, the bf/pimp. Notice, I got the C right this time :floorlaugh:
However, if he expected something more sinister or tragic, he would have hightailed off not only out of Dodge but a little further and then have laid low. No phone calls to SG's phone, no contact to AC except for a little heads up and for sure no demonstratively showing up with AC at OB.
So, I can only guess, this is not even IMO, this is IMG, in my guess, and nobody will get any links to it, but ... MP's behavior shows here exactly the break, you pointed out with your initial question. He didn't call SG's phone, because he expected this story would make waves. But after a few days, he pops up in OB with the pimpbf. That is demonstrative, open, cleaning the image. It is basically based on a changed expectation on MP's side.
MP is in this business for years. If someone knows about drug addicted prostitutes and ODs, it would be him. So what he expected that night COULD have been the police finding SG'd body, oded. This would be, in his mind supported by the fact, that he couldn't find her and she was, at the last time, he saw her, in full paranoia mode. So he may assumed, she hid in a hole and died from drugs.
But then, no body was found, nothing in the papers, no Internet news about a dead girl in OB. Police obviously hadn't found a body. Now, like most people, MP would have expected, the police actually looked. He had to assume, if she was alive and at OB, the police would have found her. Of course, we know, the assumption police is actually looking for a girl running at night through a gated community while showing irrational behavior, is already a big assumption, but MP, like many others would have expected that. So ... what would be his conclusion and by that, his next expectation? She is alive, hiding, maybe from AC, maybe from him, maybe from the police, who knows with someone with SG's problems. Maybe she went on a drug binge? And in that scenario, it was a question of time, till police would pick her up and she would tell stories about Michael Pak and maybe her boyfriend too. So the need to look good becomes bigger than the need to keep the distance. And while they walk through OB, the find CPH, an elderly guy who heard the neighborhood chitchat and is anyway already shivering for a possibility to inject himself into it.
The ironic thing about that is that it can be deduced that MP himself may know quite a bit about phones and phone records and such. At least based on the reported conversation he had with GC. For instance, his saying to GC, "you shouldn't have done that,..". He already knows that Shannan herself has been on the phone with 911, for quite a while! Is he thinking that he has no worries about Shannans 911 call because she has no way to tell them where she is, or is perhaps on an untraceable burner phone? Why does he seem to be making a big difference between SG calling 911, and GC calling 911? Did he perhaps mislead SG and tell her they were somewhere they weren't?
Which brings us to the other half of his statement, "....she is going to be in a lot of trouble". Why does the fact that GC has called 911 mean that SG is going to be in a lot of trouble, while SG calling 911 doesn't? And, in trouble with "who"?
Vivalor
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That's a good point. I've never actually thought of it like that. Guess I just assumed it was because he thought the police didn't know where SG was and would not come because if they were they would have all ready.
I've heard she told LE on the 911 call that she was one fire island??? Think it was that place anyways. He very well could of told her the wrong place. The phone could of been a burner phone. I just pray to god LE has these answers and are just not sharing them with the public.
I've just always been confused about asking SG about fear and loathing in las vegas. Almost seem border line mean to ask someone who is tripping out about that movie.
If I remember correctly, the reason that MP asked SG a question about the movie "F&L in LV", was because they had been discussing it in the car on the way to LI, and he was testing her current mental status (or grasp on reality). It was his attempt to snap her back to reality. As the story goes.
Peter said
Since GC couldn't know police would need so long, he would have went to the gate after the call. That's a 30 second way.
Peter how can you say GC couldn't know police would need so long? GC has lived in Oak Beach many years, from experience and knowledge he knows emergency responders to that part of Long Island take time. People who live a distance from emergency responders are fully aware of that fact.
Wherever you are living now Peter, I bet you can tell me within a minute how long you expect 911 responders to be.
You are basing you belief that MP did not have time to abduct SG on this one assumption
1) GC promptly went to the gate after calling 911. There is no proof of that at all.
GC never said he went to the gate immediately, which leads me to believe that knowing how long LE was going to be in arriving, he did not rush to the gate.
MOO
Since GC couldn't know police would need so long, he would have went to the gate after the call. That's a 30 second way.
Peter how can you say GC couldn't know police would need so long? GC has lived in Oak Beach many years, from experience and knowledge he knows emergency responders to that part of Long Island take time. People who live a distance from emergency responders are fully aware of that fact.
Wherever you are living now Peter, I bet you can tell me within a minute how long you expect 911 responders to be.
You are basing you belief that MP did not have time to abduct SG on this one assumption
1) GC promptly went to the gate after calling 911. There is no proof of that at all.
GC never said he went to the gate immediately, which leads me to believe that knowing how long LE was going to be in arriving, he did not rush to the gate.
MOO
Great point, if MP left Oak Beach because he felt LE was on the way, why did he wait after GC's 911 call rather than when SG called 911?
I believe MP left Oak Beach when his 'business' was done.
He returned to Oak Beach with AD and visited with CPH to ensure there were no loose ends. Note that MP and AD did not visit JB nor GC on their search for SG. Why, because GC and JB did not have any involvement in SG's disappearance and MP knew this.
BTW for those who wish to discuss the JB aspect of the case, there is a JB thread.
MOO
It is important to note that MP was coming from up the street downward toward GC's and then the gate, which would have all been on his left. SG, ran out from under the boat and had to cross the street ("The Fairway") and then run to the right onto Anchor Way. GC says that MP took off after her. GC lives at the intersection of the two roads, therefore MP did not have to turn around and go back from whence he came in order to follow her. He simply had to go down a few yards and turn right which is what GC said. She ran "that way" and "he followed her," GC said.
Now, if that is true then no one else has stated that they saw MP turn around and makes his way back out of the gate, either. So, if BB, EC and her son, JC, or any other resident haven't stated that they saw a dark SUV either come down Anchor or go back up Anchor toward the gate.... then why does it surprise you that he could have grabbed SG and driven out the same way as if he were alone? Because, given that GC states MP followed SG as she ran down Anchor Way, where her jacket was supposedly found, MP still would have had to find his way back out to the gate and onto OP. And, no one has stated publicly that they saw that either.
Now, if that is true then no one else has stated that they saw MP turn around and makes his way back out of the gate, either. So, if BB, EC and her son, JC, or any other resident haven't stated that they saw a dark SUV either come down Anchor or go back up Anchor toward the gate.... then why does it surprise you that he could have grabbed SG and driven out the same way as if he were alone? Because, given that GC states MP followed SG as she ran down Anchor Way, where her jacket was supposedly found, MP still would have had to find his way back out to the gate and onto OP. And, no one has stated publicly that they saw that either.
JustK, you are saying that the last reported sighting of MP that early morning was by GC, as MP took off after SG when she headed down Anchor Way. Yes, by this account MP headed to the right, deeper into the grounds of the community, as opposed to heading left towards the nearest exit. And then he wasn't seen again. The only problem with this is that SG was reportedly sighted later, well along Anchor Way. But MP went "poof". Nobody has reported seeing him leave, so as you state, nobody has stated seeing him leave alone. This is where the timing and math come in. The question is, if SG was sighted deep inside the community after leaving GC's, as has been reported (meaning MP still hadn't yet grabbed her even at that late point) how could he still have time to catch her and get out with nobody seeing him? Not even by GC, who says he went to the gate after his last sighting of SG and MP?
CriminalMinds
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indeed--perhaps, he follows her, she keeps fleeing, his mental clock tells him police are going to be here shortly, he's already pissed at her and nervous, he figures screw it, she's on her own, that will teach her a lesson, whips around, bolts out of OB, flying back past BB (I'd bet she's scared to talk, but no way she wasn't at her window watching after calling 911 and had to see) and GC, who didn't see him leave because after telling MP not to leave, he walks back into his house to hang up his phone and tell his wife he'll be right back, before walking back out of his house to the gate--by then, SG is somewhere between down anchor way and the marsh
Peter Brendt
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What makes you think, MP had even realized, SG had called 911? He was out in the car when SG suddenly started off? And when GC called 911 and told MP so, how could MP come to the idea, that someone with prior drug and prostitution raps would come in trouble for soliciting and drugs from the police's side?
Peter Brendt
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He couldn't have told her the wrong plce because JB contacted SG and gave her the address in the first place. So MP had the address from SG, not vice versa.
Peter Brendt
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Wrong, wrong and wrong!
1.) During the daylight hours, there are squad cars on the island side. They patrol there. That means, the time, GC had to calculate with could be something between 2 minutes and over 40 minutes. No way, he could predict it.
2.) I base my opinion, that MP didn't grab SG on a list of facts, of which time frame is only one. Aside of the time question, open points are, how MP found her, why was he and his SUV invisible, what would be his motive, where would he have stored away SG and so on and so on.
3.) I don't dare to predict how long police would know to my place if I call them. It's an urban area and police is here as everywhere understaffed. Means, it can be a minute or twenty minutes, depending, what else is going on. Depending, whether all their cars deployed or whether one is free and the cops hanging out in the donut shop not far from here.
PickleChris
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I will go with him having a good estimate of response time. That would 20+ minutes at least. In no means is that area 'urban'.
Peter Brendt
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Which is exactly the point. He went after her, with car or on foot? With car obviously. But then he couldn't move to far back into OB and away from the gate, because in that case, at least BB would have seen him. So, the only way to get out without being seen is, that he gave up short after he met GC and left through that gate in the narrow time frame, in which GC was inside again to get his clothes and before he went out to wait for LE to arrive.
PB, I deduced that MP knew that SG was on the phone with 911 based on the info below from the SG Timeline thread by TF.
""Gilbert's client phoned him at about 5AM saying Gilbert was refusing to leave the house
The driver said he drove back to the client's house and found Gilbert, who was clothed, in the living room on the phone with a 911 operator, saying that a man was after her.
Later, Pak said, Brewer summoned him to the house to try to get Gilbert out. Brewer grabbed her from behind at one point, Pak said. But she slipped out of his grasp and crouched behind a sofa, where she dialed 911 in a 23-minute call, placed at 4:51 a.m., and told the operator, "Theyre trying to kill me."
"I said 'Shannon, Get a grip. Let's go,' and she said, 'You guys are trying to kill me.' So I said, 'OK, I am leaving.' But then she said, 'Don't go."
"After Gilbert refused to leave, Pak said he sat down, exasperated. He was beginning to suspect she was acting strangely because of a bad reaction to drugs and alcohol, which he said she often did with clients. Brewer said he saw no drugs. Police say they believe Gilbert was intoxicated.
Finally, he'd (MP) had enough and walked out and got into his SUV, he said.
Pak said he went back to his car, where he saw Gilbert take off running after Brewer "scared her out" of the home.
"She never got back in my car," Pak said
Pak said she bolted from the house, phone in hand, and fell down the front steps before running away.
The driver said he ran after Gilbert, who is bipolar and has a history of cocaine abuse, but then lost track.
5:14 AM...
GS 23 minute long phonecall with the 911 operator stops.""
""Gilbert's client phoned him at about 5AM saying Gilbert was refusing to leave the house
The driver said he drove back to the client's house and found Gilbert, who was clothed, in the living room on the phone with a 911 operator, saying that a man was after her.
Later, Pak said, Brewer summoned him to the house to try to get Gilbert out. Brewer grabbed her from behind at one point, Pak said. But she slipped out of his grasp and crouched behind a sofa, where she dialed 911 in a 23-minute call, placed at 4:51 a.m., and told the operator, "Theyre trying to kill me."
"I said 'Shannon, Get a grip. Let's go,' and she said, 'You guys are trying to kill me.' So I said, 'OK, I am leaving.' But then she said, 'Don't go."
"After Gilbert refused to leave, Pak said he sat down, exasperated. He was beginning to suspect she was acting strangely because of a bad reaction to drugs and alcohol, which he said she often did with clients. Brewer said he saw no drugs. Police say they believe Gilbert was intoxicated.
Finally, he'd (MP) had enough and walked out and got into his SUV, he said.
Pak said he went back to his car, where he saw Gilbert take off running after Brewer "scared her out" of the home.
"She never got back in my car," Pak said
Pak said she bolted from the house, phone in hand, and fell down the front steps before running away.
The driver said he ran after Gilbert, who is bipolar and has a history of cocaine abuse, but then lost track.
5:14 AM...
GS 23 minute long phonecall with the 911 operator stops.""
Peter Brendt
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See, here is my problem: He saw her dialing, maybe he heard her even speak for some minutes before he went back in the car. So either he knew, she had called 911 or he thought, she had called "someone" or bluffed. If he knew, police would be coming, that would have been the time to grab her and bail out, but obviously he didn't.
So, given that a lot of those statements were answers to questions, that were asked only after the GB4 were found and the media frenzy started, what of it is actually real?
And the other point is double standard for the last two years. On one hand, people told, nobody can believe Pak (when I referred to the drug part of the story), on the other hand, people insisted, I have to believe Pak (when it comes to his description of the phone call part). The problem is, if she could be on the phone for 23 minutes with 911 without somebody trying to kill her or interrupt the call, this says to me, nobody tried to kill her and she was in a paranoid state caused by a drug/alcohol mix. That Brewer said, he saw no drugs, well, that is nice, but hardly credible, because he would say the same if the table would have bent under piles of drugs. And remember this 15 minute trip earlier.
So all we have from Pak about this, is a story, that is as near to the truth as he dares and as far away as the need to look better in all of this enforces.
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