POI: Michael Pak

[Tugela]

You're wrong. Pak did commit a few crimes that night.

a) Brewer booked the date with Pak, not SG, it's even in the Suffolk County legislature from May 5, 2011
confiming that Brewer contacted Pak directly;

b) accepting the money from Brewer (Brewer let Pak in OB at gate) Brewer paid up front or SG doesn't enter the house;

c) driving Shannan to a john's house for purposes of prostitution is a crime;

d) being a 3rd party to benefit from Shannan being prostituted is a crime; the sale of a human being is trafficking;

e) Pak has said he saw her fleeing for her life and he did nothing to help her, she died;

2nd degree (involuntary) manslaughter. Pak acted recklessly. He could be facing 25 years if Spota had any
common sense at all. But we all know who Spota is the sugar daddy of, right?

It is only a crime if it can be proven. Of course we all know what they were all there for, but knowing and proving are two completely different things. To prove that prostitution was involved you have to prove that money was offered in return for sex, this is not that easy and is why prostitution is commonplace while relatively few people are charged with crimes associated with it. SG was hired as an escort, and that is not illegal. It is also not illegal to have sex with a stranger. Escorts get away with it because their agency is paid for their time, but how they choose to use that time is up to them. So the money is not for sex, it is for time. The sex is something they choose to do independently from that. In order for a crime to have happened there has to be a direct offer of sex in return for money. You need someone to testify to that effect, which is why prostitution arrests are usually done through some sort of sting with an undercover police officer either as the client or escort. If there is no police officer involved there is no witness and hence no crime that can be proven in court.

Sophisticated escorts generally are not stupid enough to ask a client for cash directly for sex. Usually both her and her client know what they are there for, and there is no conversation about it. Also, money is not handed over directly. It is done discretely, typically the client will "accidently" leave an unsealed envelope on a table along with his jacket or whatever, then ask to use the washroom. When he returns the envelope will be gone and he will not mention it again. Money is never spoken about, nor is it ever visible. Sex is never spoken about. It is done that way so that the law is not directly broken. High to mid end escorts rarely get into trouble with the law for that reason. Usually the ones that have problems are the low end ones or the streetwalkers, because they tend to be unsophisticated or careless about the finer points of legality, which means that they are easy for police to catch.

Pak did try to help SG, saying he did nothing is incorrect. He tried to reason with her when she went off the deep end, he went searching for her when she ran off, he continued searching the following days when she failed to turn up. There is nothing reckless in his behavior to the extent that it would rise to the point of liability in manslaughter. What happened to SG is tragic, but it was of her own making and there was not a whole lot more that Pak could have done.

 

[Scorpio girl]

It is only a crime if it can be proven. Of course we all know what they were all there for, but knowing and proving are two completely different things. To prove that prostitution was involved you have to prove that money was offered in return for sex, this is not that easy and is why prostitution is commonplace while relatively few people are charged with crimes associated with it. SG was hired as an escort, and that is not illegal. It is also not illegal to have sex with a stranger. Escorts get away with it because their agency is paid for their time, but how they choose to use that time is up to them. So the money is not for sex, it is for time. The sex is something they choose to do independently from that. In order for a crime to have happened there has to be a direct offer of sex in return for money. You need someone to testify to that effect, which is why prostitution arrests are usually done through some sort of sting with an undercover police officer either as the client or escort. If there is no police officer involved there is no witness and hence no crime that can be proven in court.

Sophisticated escorts generally are not stupid enough to ask a client for cash directly for sex. Usually both her and her client know what they are there for, and there is no conversation about it. Also, money is not handed over directly. It is done discretely, typically the client will "accidently" leave an unsealed envelope on a table along with his jacket or whatever, then ask to use the washroom. When he returns the envelope will be gone and he will not mention it again. Money is never spoken about, nor is it ever visible. Sex is never spoken about. It is done that way so that the law is not directly broken. High to mid end escorts rarely get into trouble with the law for that reason. Usually the ones that have problems are the low end ones or the streetwalkers, because they tend to be unsophisticated or careless about the finer points of legality, which means that they are easy for police to catch.

Pak did try to help SG, saying he did nothing is incorrect. He tried to reason with her when she went off the deep end, he went searching for her when she ran off, he continued searching the following days when she failed to turn up. There is nothing reckless in his behavior to the extent that it would rise to the point of liability in manslaughter. What happened to SG is tragic, but it was of her own making and there was not a whole lot more that Pak could have done.

probable cause.

 

[Anonymous19]

Thank you Tugrla for your input, ignore Scorpio girl I have already had to educate her on the industry and laws myself. i see you where in the industy I am former driver myself and I agreee with everything you say however iam curious to know about the whole SG “There Trying to Kill Me” line, LE has not closed to book completely on SG being most likely her death was a result of her own actions that night. It’s a bit awkward for her to call the police never had a girl do that. I know she started of In agency’s and in my experience that’s where a lot of the girls that tend to have emotional issue end up, but not always. What’s your take on the whole they are trying to kill me statement , do you think it was just apart of her episode and possibly from seeing nightmare on elm street a few hours before the call? On a side note I don’t belive the profile given on this killer as the affluent bussiness man type, I think it was a lot easier then people think to get these girls to meet him on his terms. I have a idea of what he said to do this .Also these girls where not professionals. I think we need to simplify the profile.

 

[Angela_Beckett]

respecfully snipped by moi

OMG, yes, this. That's what I've thought all along. I don't believe the killer lives in there. I believe is someone who know and is comfortable with the area, and somehow doesn't have a single problem with causing that residents of OB became suspects of being SK. He may actually enjoy to cause them this huge life messing trouble, don't know why. Maybe because he had access in someway to their way of life, but it's not actually one of them....

 

[WINDSOR]

Tugela and Anonymous 19,

It appears that both of you have concluded, based on your knowledge and experience in and around the sex industry that MP is innocent of any wrongdoing, and SG's death, though tragic was basically self-inflicted.

To me this smacks of the reasoning that the victim is 'always responsible' excuse. "If she didn't dress that way", "if she had not gone there", "if she didn't associate with those people" and so on.

Fundamentally I believe it is how one views the sex trade. Are the women involved, coerced, manipulated and exploited or are they meeting a legitimate need in society and making responsible choices freely? Of course there are always shades of grey in these questions.

We all know that money is the primary driver in this industry, and if money is taken out of the equation there is no sex industry. The fact is money is the 'coercion' regardless how the participants try to act legally.

I am not sure yet if MP is criminally liable in any way, Tugela and Anonymous19 seem pretty sure he is not. Of course criminal liability must be proven in court, which at times is extremely difficult. For me the more important question then becomes, is MP liable under a code of values that does not involve the criminal code? A perfect parallel is the fact OJ was not convicted of any crime related to Nicole's and Ron's death.

 

[Anonymous19]

Some of the bodies found out there were related, but others were not. It is just a remote area that was convenient to dump bodies. There is no reason to think that those bodies have anything to do with SG.

A SK is not going to be dumping bodies in his/her back yard. It attracts too much attention. The SK responsible for at least some of the remains found along that road is likely someone familiar with the area but who does not actually live there.

That’s incorrect they will dump bodies in there backyard they will NOT dump bodies in there neigborhood, I can get into why this is and why they will dump in there backyard but it’s a lot to type and gets very deep psychologically. I can if you need me to post why it’s just a lot to type and find the wording.

 

[Anonymous19]

Tugela and Anonymous 19,

It appears that both of you have concluded, based on your knowledge and experience in and around the sex industry that MP is innocent of any wrongdoing, and SG's death, though tragic was basically self-inflicted.

To me this smacks of the reasoning that the victim is 'always responsible' excuse. "If she didn't dress that way", "if she had not gone there", "if she didn't associate with those people" and so on.

Fundamentally I believe it is how one views the sex trade. Are the women involved, coerced, manipulated and exploited or are they meeting a legitimate need in society and making responsible choices freely? Of course there are always shades of grey in these questions.

We all know that money is the primary driver in this industry, and if money is taken out of the equation there is no sex industry. The fact is money is the 'coercion' regardless how the participants try to act legally.

I am not sure yet if MP is criminally liable in any way, Tugela and Anonymous19 seem pretty sure he is not. Of course criminal liability must be proven in court, which at times is extremely difficult. For me the more important question then becomes, is MP liable under a code of values that does not involve the criminal code? A perfect parallel is the fact OJ was not convicted of any crime related to Nicole's and Ron's death.

No I don’t belive he is the police may wanna pin something like that on him to take the spotlight of the public feeling that they didn’t do enough that’s although I highly doubt they will do something like that. And Pak did everything he tried to get her in the car if he physically tried to get her in the car you all would be saying he beat and Gurilla pimped her , and from what LE says SG had a oportuinty to safety at GC house but she just ran off. I fell like you are looking for the damsel in distress her and he wasn’t supposed to do more he’s not a pimp guys he was her driver. And it’s not uncommon for these girls in agency to go off the deep end the **** hat happens in a night you wouldn’t belive, he didn’t what he could she would listen and he had enough, he probly felt she was just trying to get money I explained all my theroys in previous post here.

 

[JJBONES]

No I don’t belive he is the police may wanna pin something like that on him to take the spotlight of the public feeling that they didn’t do enough that’s although I highly doubt they will do something like that. And Pak did everything he tried to get her in the car if he physically tried to get her in the car you all would be saying he beat and Gurilla pimped her , and from what LE says SG had a oportuinty to safety at GC house but she just ran off. I fell like you are looking for the damsel in distress her and he wasn’t supposed to do more he’s not a pimp guys he was her driver. And it’s not uncommon for these girls in agency to go off the deep end the **** hat happens in a night you wouldn’t belive, he didn’t what he could she would listen and he had enough, he probly felt she was just trying to get money I explained all my theroys in previous post here.

Just curious, why are you so adamant that all pimps/drivers/prostitutes all act the same in every situation? There may be a general "standard" of behavior that could be applied to all, but certainly not a playbook they all go by. Unless you were there, your theories are as much speculation as anyone else's. Not trying to be rude, but most people on this forum are experts at many things and yet accept anything is possible because we were not there.

 

[Anonymous19]

Just curious, why are you so adamant that all pimps/drivers/prostitutes all act the same in every situation? There may be a general "standard" of behavior that could be applied to all, but certainly not a playbook they all go by. Unless you were there, your theories are as much speculation as anyone else's. Not trying to be rude, but most people on this forum are experts at many things and yet accept anything is possible because we were not there.

They don’t all act the same . And everything is realy just theroy and speculation. I thought I made that clear but apparently your professional degree doesn’t equal common sense. In a situation like this unless you are a profiler your degree and anyone’s at that means nothing to me. Clearly you don’t understand my statements. Next time instead of being passive aggressive you should ask me to clarify and i would be more then happy to do so if you don’t understand what I post. I believe that everyone’s contribution here helps regardless of a piece of paper but for something like this the education bought is of little value to me unless you have a degree from Quantico. Cases like this are usely solved from the most unlikely source.

 

[JJBONES]

They don’t all act the same. And everything is realy just theroy and speculation. I thought I made that clear but apparently your professional degree doesn’t equal common sense. In a situation like this unless you are a profiler your degree and anyone’s at that means nothing to me. Clearly you don’t understand my statements.

Clearly I don't understand bad grammar and misspelled words. So your professional expertise leads you to an anonymous sleuthing site full of people who are not qualified profilers? Indeed that is where I would go to validate such a profession and have intelligent discourse with like minded people.

 

[Anonymous19]

I think you should go back a re read my statement, you didn’t read the whole thing. Quote me all you like but post the whole thing. And yes my spelling is horrendous your gonna have to deal with it. Read the whole thing. And iam done with this I have made my point. This is about exchanging ideas on catching a sadist not your little complaints because you don’t like the way I word things.

They don’t all act the same . And everything is realy just theroy and speculation. I thought I made that clear but apparently your professional degree doesn’t equal common sense. In a situation like this unless you are a profiler your degree and anyone’s at that means nothing to me. Clearly you don’t understand my statements. Next time instead of being passive aggressive you should ask me to clarify and i would be more then happy to do so if you don’t understand what I post. I believe that everyone’s contribution here helps regardless of a piece of paper but for something like this the education bought is of little value to me unless you have a degree from Quantico. Cases like this are usely solved from the most unlikely source.

 

[JJBONES]

I think you should go back a re read my statement, you didn’t read the whole thing.

I read it in it's entirety at the time it was written, which is what is quoted in my reply. I also read your edited post. No skin off my back either way. I like this forum, I like the variety of people and their contributions and ideas. I don't like those who think they can somehow educate the rest of us and treat others rudely because their own sense of self is inflated. That being said, I will refrain from any further distracting comments because the majority of those here are actually trying to help in some way and not puff up their own ego.

 

[Anonymous19]

I’ve said this before don’t know if anyone gave input but does anyone here think LISK could be going to NA 12 step mettings to look for targets?

 

[Anonymous19]

Wanna put this out there I meet a guy years ago who was in trucking he never did what they call over the road he only did local so that means he was always home at the end of the day he lived in the profile area. Well anyway this guy was a Psycological sadist and he was very into Psycological intimidation and trying to break people down mentally and emotionally. He had Maffia ties from what he said, and said a lot of his friends where cops. This guy study interrogation and how to break people down I could tell based on the way he worded things when he got angry if he could get to you he got very scientific and what not. Does anyone here think LISK could have been involved In The trucking industry.

 

[WesternArtist]

Thank you Tugrla for your input, ignore Scorpio girl I have already had to educate her on the industry and laws myself. i see you where in the industy I am former driver myself and I agreee with everything you say however iam curious to know about the whole SG “There Trying to Kill Me” line, LE has not closed to book completely on SG being most likely her death was a result of her own actions that night. It’s a bit awkward for her to call the police never had a girl do that. I know she started of In agency’s and in my experience that’s where a lot of the girls that tend to have emotional issue end up, but not always. What’s your take on the whole they are trying to kill me statement , do you think it was just apart of her episode and possibly from seeing nightmare on elm street a few hours before the call? On a side note I don’t belive the profile given on this killer as the affluent bussiness man type, I think it was a lot easier then people think to get these girls to meet him on his terms. I have a idea of what he said to do this .Also these girls where not professionals. I think we need to simplify the profile.

What is your idea of what LISK might have said to the girls to get them to meet him/them on his/their terms?

 

[WesternArtist]

I’ve said this before don’t know if anyone gave input but does anyone here think LISK could be going to NA 12 step mettings to look for targets?

It has been discussed quite a bit, I believe on Amber’s thread and maybe the Manorville Bodies a Second Killer thread. I think it’s a strong possibility. At one point I tried to map all of the rehabs on LI. I agree with the theory that at least with the Manorville males they could have been patients at rehabs or residents in clean and sober living facilities, or in methadone maintenance programs. The heads of an organization of those, Narco Freedom, Inc. who live on LI were investigated and indicted for basically abusing government funding. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/thousands-of-patients-in-massive-fraud-case-to-receive-new-providers/

 

[Anonymous19]

Very simple. So I think he meet them more then once gained there trust. You need to understand these girls are husteling these guys providing a fantasy. They can easily fall victim to the same hustel.
I belive he said something to the effect like I want us to have a good night out iam not gonna bring my phone and I don’t want you to bring yours beacuse you know you get a lot of calls your very beautiful and I want us to not be distracted. If they where like where are we going he may have said I want to surprise you. Keep In mind he made these girls feel secure at first they trusted him. These are the type of girls that wanted out of this life style I belive he saw that and used that maby said something like, iam gonna give you some money to get away from all this , you can just run away no one needs to know where your going. He could ace said when settled contact the people you want to. These girls where not professionals I think they wanted a better life. And he made them feel beautiful he played there desires they feel victim to the very hustel they do to the John. I don’t think it’s was as hard as people make it out. It’s sad but I feel it’s true. These girls went for money they thought they where husteling him giveing him the Girlfriend Experience look that one up. “GFE” google that.
The girls needed the money felt hey why not they trusted him and went, i think this guy is a regular client and a average joe. I don’t think he is a big time cop it’s very hard for SK to maintain that type of job when they act normal it’s a act that’s it. I’ve though about this for a bit and to get these girls to go with him on his terms was not that hard. Most escorts unless they are professional want to get out of the industry from my experience they really don’t want to do what they do. To be honest some of the girls I worked with would have easily feel for that trap it’s sad but true especialy if they where average looking girls. When the get rejected by the John it’s sad to them. He gave them a escape made them feel pretty or so they thought. He is payin $1500 for the GFE in there mind they said ofcouse he doesn’t wan the pimp calling or other clients. This is very simple.
They felt in control like they where husteling him or he was giveing them the escape they wanted almost like a sugar daddy.
But in reality he was playing there very game against them and used the same tequinqes and do to the fact they where not trained to spot someone like him they fell victim. A lot of these girls create a illusion of what they do they don’t want to just think they are a prostitute being used so sometimes not all the time they think they are providing a fantasy, well that outlook can be mainipulated. And I think he did just that. They went for $$$ they thought they where in control or they thought he was they way out of the life. It’s very sad when you think about it but it’s not as hard as people are makeing it out to be.

 

[Vapor]

Very simple. So I think he meet them more then once gained there trust. You need to understand these girls are husteling these guys providing a fantasy. They can easily fall victim to the same hustel.
I belive he said something to the effect like I want us to have a good night out iam not gonna bring my phone and I don’t want you to bring yours beacuse you know you get a lot of calls your very beautiful and I want us to not be distracted. If they where like where are we going he may have said I want to surprise you. Keep In mind he made these girls feel secure at first they trusted him. These are the type of girls that wanted out of this life style I belive he saw that and used that maby said something like, iam gonna give you some money to get away from all this , you can just run away no one needs to know where your going. He could ace said when settled contact the people you want to. These girls where not professionals I think they wanted a better life. And he made them feel beautiful he played there desires they feel victim to the very hustel they do to the John. I don’t think it’s was as hard as people make it out. It’s sad but I feel it’s true. These girls went for money they thought they where husteling him giveing him the Girlfriend Experience look that one up. “GFE” google that.
The girls needed the money felt hey why not they trusted him and went, i think this guy is a regular client and a average joe. I don’t think he is a big time cop it’s very hard for SK to maintain that type of job when they act normal it’s a act that’s it. I’ve though about this for a bit and to get these girls to go with him on his terms was not that hard. Most escorts unless they are professional want to get out of the industry from my experience they really don’t want to do what they do. To be honest some of the girls I worked with would have easily feel for that trap it’s sad but true especialy if they where average looking girls. When the get rejected by the John it’s sad to them. He gave them a escape made them feel pretty or so they thought. He is payin $1500 for the GFE in there mind they said ofcouse he doesn’t wan the pimp calling or other clients. This is very simple.
They felt in control like they where husteling him or he was giveing them the escape they wanted almost like a sugar daddy.
But in reality he was playing there very game against them and used the same tequinqes and do to the fact they where not trained to spot someone like him they fell victim. A lot of these girls create a illusion of what they do they don’t want to just think they are a prostitute being used so sometimes not all the time they think they are providing a fantasy, well that outlook can be mainipulated. And I think he did just that. They went for $$$ they thought they where in control or they thought he was they way out of the life. It’s very sad when you think about it but it’s not as hard as people are makeing it out to be.

Just a reminder.. if you are referring to, “the girls” as the gb4, than some of them did have their phones with them. so the whole thing about lisk convincing each victim to not bring phones isnt true.

Imo.. if this killer is or was a high level public official, or someone connected to one, they likely wouldnt be the one to “procure” these girls.. Somebody else who was trusted/connected would be hired/compensated to procure these girls and bring them to wherever It was they went before they died. so maybe a trusted and experienced human trafficker comes to mind. Somebody paid well to procure a specific target.

I feel this is one of many possibilities based off of the high level corruption that affected the investigation and leannes revelations. Both are significant keys in narrowing down what happened to atleast the gb4 imo.

 

[Anonymous19]

Just a reminder.. if you are referring to, “the girls” as the gb4, than some of them did have their phones with them. so the whole thing about lisk convincing each victim to not bring phones isnt true.

Imo.. if this killer is or was a high level public official, or someone connected to one, they likely wouldnt be the one to “procure” these girls.. Somebody else who was trusted/connected would be hired/compensated to procure these girls and bring them to wherever It was they went before they died. so maybe a trusted and experienced human trafficker comes to mind. Somebody paid well to procure a specific target.

I feel this is one of many possibilities based off of the high level corruption that affected the investigation and leannes revelations. Both are significant keys in narrowing down what happened to atleast the gb4 imo.

I once thought that myself but you realy need to understand the proflie of a serial killer, I think that image is being used for a reason I don’t want to say here but i disagree with the profile and I belive LE knows LISk is someone different. Serial Killers have a very hard time working jobs like that, however he may be connected to high profile people. We would have to look at high profile jobs that he could conceal his weirdness in. This is why SK usely work Jobs where they can be alone. Personally I think they have a idea of who this guy is. And useing the political stuff for a reason. For example he may be a file clerk in a high profile police building where he can conceal his issues but not a police chife. Maybe one time he was a cop but was let go. JB and I know you didn’t say him but people think he’s a poi , it be very hard for a SK socialy to do that job. Now a police chife involved in organized crime that is a definet but all that and a SK would be hard to pull off. He may very well be a associate though.

 

[Vapor]

I know this may be hard to believe in todays political climate, but yes, public officials are actually humans and can become SKs. In the end they are human beings like anyone else. so its good to be open minded about potential pois regardless of their occupation.

A point worth noting about the gb4 and what each of them had in common that i think may have been appealing to whoever picked these girls up was the fact that each of them were free agents.. they werent working for anyone. They ditched their pimps/agencies, they were all working on their own at the times they went missing. Imo, i find it hard to believe thats a coincidence. That was a common trait among the gb4 that was appealing to whoever was responding to their craigslist adds.