Police say parents are not answering vital questions #2

[Whisperer]

There sure are an awful lot of excuses made for these parents.

 

[katydid23]

Here's something I find a bit odd.

She talks in plural, my kids have always slept with me when they were little. Why the plural? Lisa is her kid, and she's still little, and she sleeps in her crib (allegedly). JI's son didn't live with her when he was little.

Where did Lisa really sleep that night?
It occurs to me that DB could both have checked on Lisa and gone straight to her room if that was where Lisa slept. That's where the cadaver dog is said to have hit as well.

The one scenario that I keep coming back to is that the baby was crying, so she went into the baby's room at 10:30, and took her to the big bed, because mom was tired and drunk and wanted to go to sleep. And she passed out and rolled over on her. What happened next I am not sure about.

 

[highflyer]

There sure are an awful lot of excuses made for these parents.

Confusing objectivity with excuses?

 

[Whisperer]

I got the impression that Joe T. put out that stat on the medical examiner who wrote a book on cadaver dogs. I am reading some of that book he wrote and can't find it. Dollars to donuts, the FBI has different stats than he has.

This cadaver dog used at the Irwin house was an FBI trained dog. I trust the dog. Man, the defense attorneys in the Anthony case sure did a number on the dogs also. The jury bought into it obviously. IIRC, those dogs had an accuracy over 90% for alerting to human remains. Sometime they may miss a scent but if they alert, you can sure there was a body there.

...it appears Defense Attorneys don't like the dogs at all. Well, they do work for LE so I guess that's a given...they don't like LE people either.

 

[Whisperer]

Confusing objectivity with excuses?

Nope..

 

[natsound]

I got the impression that Joe T. put out that stat on the medical examiner who wrote a book on cadaver dogs. I am reading some of that book he wrote and can't find it. Dollars to donuts, the FBI has different stats than he has.

This cadaver dog used at the Irwin house was an FBI trained dog. I trust the dog. Man, the defense attorneys in the Anthony case sure did a number on the dogs also. The jury bought into it obviously. IIRC, those dogs had an accuracy over 90% for alerting to human remains. Sometime they may miss a scent but if they alert, you can sure there was a body there.

...it appears Defense Attorneys don't like the dogs at all. Well, they do work for LE so I guess that's a given...they don't like LE people either.

bbm

This cannot be said enough. Either you believe in the integrity of cadaver dogs, or you don't. I am one that does believe. As sarx has said, a cadaver dog hit is one piece of the puzzle, just like a footprint under a window.

 

[Oriah]

I need some more to prove there was a dead body in there. From the link:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2011-10-22/missing-baby-mo/50861648/1

Dr. Edward David, a deputy chief medical examiner for the state of Maine and co-author of the "Cadaver Dog Handbook," said that when a body is left in one spot for several hours, cells are left behind. They continue to decompose and create an odor, giving the dog scents to detect.

He said that while trained dogs may fail to detect the smell of human decomposition about 30 percent of the time, they generally don't alert when nothing is there. One exception is when human waste is present.

That is completely inaccurate information, and depends entirely on what the dog is trained to alert to.

I think we have a couple posts on here re: Dr. Edward David.

 

[hambirg]

bbm

This cannot be said enough. Either you believe in the integrity of cadaver dogs, or you don't. I am one that does believe. As sarx has said, a cadaver dog hit is one piece of the puzzle, just like a footprint under a window.

I just wanted to second this. This particular dog and trainer are supposedly world renowned. I trust the dog.

If that dog was really hitting on human waste, say from a poopy diaper, there would have been hits all over the house. . .in the nursery, the bathroom, the garbage cans. Why even bother to use a dog then if that is the case?

I believe it was Jim Spellman that tweeted that there was more than one dog there (I don't recall which search though). So I think it's likely that LE tried to confirm the hit. Maybe they did, but maybe there wasn't a confirmation. We have to infer things from LE's behavior. Just like how we could tell they were looking for the phones at and near the house, before we learned about the pings. I think that LE believes BL died in the house, judging by their behavior.

All MOO

 

[yllek]

This is based on all known statements, reports and interviews as of 12/3 pm, to the best of my ability. There are 3 known areas of focus for LE in regards to further questioning Debbi Bradley and Jeremy Irwin (according to statements from Debbi, Debbi's dad, and Cptn Young): 1. gaps in Debbi's timeline; 2. inconsistencies in details between Debbi's and Jeremy's initial accounts; 3. comings and goings from the house that night.

As we aren't getting any news at this time, thought maybe looking at the gaps that we know about and the updated time line might be helpful.

EDITED BASED ON POSTER FEEDBACK
-Added Jeremy's reported time arriving home after day job on Oct 3rd.
-Deleted reference to "light code" between neighbors because couldn't find link to substantiate (note: Donjeta found link to statement by Stanton, posted down thread post #1101).
-Corrected phone ping radias.
-Added 10:30 pm text to Mrs. Brando on 10/3.

TIME LINE LEADING UP TO AMBER ALERT

Sunday, Oct 2: Unknown time
Lisa attends a birthday party with her family; party held at extended family member's house.

Sunday, Oct 2 after party to Monday, Oct 3 at 2:30 pm
GAP - NO KNOWN ACTIVITY; NO INFORMATION ABOUT ANY ACTIVITY OF FOR IRWIN/BRADLEY FAMILY PROVIDED. Note: This is a gap for us, but activity may be known by LE.

Monday, Oct 3: 2:30 pm
-Jeremy Irwin reportedly returns home from his day job at 2:30 pm (no source provided).

Monday, Oct 3: 4:30 pm
-Samantha Brando is reportedly at the Irwin House at 4:30 pm. It has been reported that she sees Lisa "apparently fine" (no source or confirmation).
-Jeremy Irwin is reportedly still at the house, visiting his children (note: there arre conflicting stories about him having an early dinner with his family and his family having dinner after he left for shift 2).
-At 4:30 pm, Debbi and Phil Netz must have been at the Irwin House or had just left the Irwin House to go to Festival Foods.

Monday, Oct 3: 4:47 pm
-Debbi and her 20 year old brother purchase baby food, baby wipes, and a box of wine at the Fesitival Foods.

Monday, Oct 3: 5:20 pm
-Debbi has returned home from the store.
-Jeremy goes to his second job of the day, he has been home for two hours prior to departing. It's his first ever night shift and it's at a nearby Starbuck's.

Monday, Oct 3: 5:00 pm
-Debbi has returned home from the store. (Not known if Phil Netz went into the house or just dropped her out front and left.)
-Jim Brando leaves his home next door to begin his separation from Samantha, reportedly recommended by the marriage counsellor earlier this day.

Monday, Oct 3: 5:30 pm
-Debbi is reportedly fixing a chicken dinner for the neighbor lady and her daughter, along with Debbi's sons. Lisa not mentioned.
-Not mentioned whether the neighbor and daughter are present during the cooking or if they come over later.

Monday, Oct 3: 6:40 pm
-Debbi reportedly puts fussy Lisa to bed. We don't know where Lisa was prior to being put to bed by Debbi.

Monday, Oct 3: sometime shortly after 6:40 pm
-Debbi reportedly looks in on Lisa, Lisa is standing in her crib, Debbi lays her back down.
-This is the last time Lisa Irwin is seen.

Monday, Oct 3: between 6:30 pm and 7:00 pm
-Samantha Brando reportedly makes a run to buy liquor.

Monday, Oct 3: around 7:00 pm until around 10:30 pm
-Debbi and the neighbor sit out on Debbi's front stoop drinking wine.
*Somehow Debbi acquires a stray kitten during this time.
-Debbi's 6 year old son and Jeremy's 8 year old son and the neighbor's 4 year old daughter watch a movie in the boys' room (with bunk beds) while the moms are having "grown up time".
-A new male neighbor (Shane) hangs out with the ladies on the stoop from 7:30 pm to 9:00pm. He has reportedly never hung out there before. He claims no one was drinking, but they were all smoking and he can tell the ladies had been drinking earlier. He claims he had no idea that Debbi Bradley had a baby and no one went inside to check children.

Monday, Oct 3: around 10 pm or 10:30 pm
-According to Debbi, she was drunk; possibly enough to black out.
-Jeremy is expected to arrive home from the Starbuck's job. He does not come home. He tries but cannot reach Debbi by phone (according to lawyer); he does not call anyone else to let Debbi know that he will be more than 5 hours late from his first ever night shift.
-Presumably, the grown up time comes to an end for Debbi and she goes indoors.
Presumably, the neighbor takes her daughter home, but this has never been reported.
-Possibly Debbi is asked if both boys can sleep in her room.
-Debbi leaves a window open in the computer room.
-Debbi doesn't know if she locked the front door or not.
- Neighor Shane comes back to hang out with Samantha Brando and is reportedly outside with her from 10:30 pm to the 11:30 pm.
-Debbi thinks she turned off all of the lights when she went inside.
-Jim Brando claims to have sent an "I love you and our daughter" (para) text to his wife at 10:30 pm with a similar text sent by Mrs. Brando in reply.
NOTE: Samantha Brando claims the lights were off at Debbi's house when she went inside at 11:30 pm; she claims that she and Shane did not see anything odd at Debbi's house while they were outside from 10:30 to 11:30 pm.

Monday, Oct 3: 10:30pmish to Tuesday, Oct 4: 3:45 am
GAP - NO KNOWN ACTIVITY FOR DEBBI BRADLEY; NO INFORMATION PROVIDED.
-Debbi does not remember; possible she blacked out.
=Debbi has not publicly stated that she was asleep the whole time, and she has not stated that she was awake all/part of the time.
=She has not publicly stated that there were others at the house, and she has not denied others being present.
=She has not publicly stated that she left the house, and she has not denied leaving the house.
- A call out is attempted at 11:57 pm to a phone number owned by Megan Wright; call made by one of the 3 reportedly restricted cell phones that were later reported stolen.
-This 11:57 pm call and subsequent phone activity all occured within a 1/5 to 1/3 mile radius of and including the Irwin House.
■3:17 am – attempt to check voicemail on Debbi's phone.
■3:32 am – attempt to check voicemail on Debbi's phone.
■5 attempts at accessing the internet from Debbi's phone.

Tuesday, Oct 4: between 3:45 am and 4:00 am
-Jeremy arrives home, nearly 6 hours past the time he was expected to leave the job site.
-He finds door unlocked, computer window open, screen tampered, all the lights on, Debbi in bed with her six year old and the stray kitten, his 8 year old presumably in his own bed, Lisa's light on and her door open (doors said to always be closed at night).
-LISA FOUND TO BE MISSING FROM HER CRIB

Tuesday, Oct 4: after 4:00 am
-After some activity (too unclear as to what Jeremy and Debbi did and said first), the parents notice that 3 cell phones are missing from the counter in the kitchen.
-The boys are awakened in the confusion and are screaming for Pumpkin.
-Jeremy runs to the neighbor's house - "do you have Lisa?" (para). Or, Jeremy discovers work cell in pocket and then they look around outside and call 911. Or, Jeremy looks outside but Debbi won't go out back because she's afraid of what she might find. Or, the couple grab a flash light and look around outside. This time frame is unclear; too many sequence changes from parents and differing media reports to pin it down thus far.

Tuesday, Oct 4: around 4:10 am
-Jeremy Irwin calls 911, presumably from his work cell phone which he found in his pocket.
-LE arrives shortly thereafter and an Amber Alert is issued for Lisa Irwin on the morning of Tuesday, Oct. 4, 2011.

 

[cityslick]

I just wanted to second this. This particular dog and trainer are supposedly world renowned. I trust the dog.

If that dog was really hitting on human waste, say from a poopy diaper, there would have been hits all over the house. . .in the nursery, the bathroom, the garbage cans. Why even bother to use a dog then if that is the case?

I believe it was Jim Spellman that tweeted that there was more than one dog there (I don't recall which search though). So I think it's likely that LE tried to confirm the hit. Maybe they did, but maybe there wasn't a confirmation. We have to infer things from LE's behavior. Just like how we could tell they were looking for the phones at and near the house, before we learned about the pings. I think that LE believes BL died in the house, judging by their behavior.

All MOO

This whole case is based on assumption, speculation and guessing. It's assumed there was more than one hit. It's assumed there was a dead body in there because of one hit.

I don't operate like that. I operate on what's factual and what's known. And that is there was one and only one hit in that house. If information comes out that there was more than one, I'll based my judgements on that. But I buy into the here and not, not the what if.

I have to ask, would people put less credence into the hit if it's confirmed that multiple dogs were in fact brought in and could not confirm the hit?

 

[cityslick]

That is completely inaccurate information, and depends entirely on what the dog is trained to alert to.

I think we have a couple posts on here re: Dr. Edward David.

So you're saying they guy who wrote a book on cadaver dogs is inaccurate?

 

[crimecurious]

-Debbi thinks she turned off all of the lights when she went inside (later says her drinking buddy Samantha told her that they were off at 11:30 pm - they have a code according to Debbi's laywer).

Thanks for the rundown yllek. What does "they have a code" mean?

 

[MissJames]

This is based on all known statements, reports and interviews as of 12/3 pm, to the best of my ability. There are 3 known areas of focus for LE in regards to further questioning Debbi Bradley and Jeremy Irwin (according to statements from Debbi, Debbi's dad, and Cptn Young): 1. gaps in Debbi's timeline; 2. inconsistencies in details between Debbi's and Jeremy's initial accounts; 3. comings and goings from the house that night.

As we aren't getting any news at this time, thought maybe looking at the gaps that we know about and the updated time line might be helpful.


TIME LINE LEADING UP TO AMBER ALERT

Sunday, Oct 2: Unknown time
Lisa attends a birthday party with her family; party held at extended family member's house.

Sunday, Oct 2 after party to Monday, Oct 3 at 4:30 pm
GAP - NO KNOWN ACTIVITY; NO INFORMATION ABOUT ANY ACTIVITY OF FOR IRWIN/BRADLEY FAMILY PROVIDED.

Monday, Oct 3: 4:30 pm
-Samantha Brando is reportedly at the Irwin House. It has been reported that she sees Lisa "apparently fine" (no source or confirmation).
-Jeremy Irwin is reportedly at the Irwin House.
-Debbi and Phil Netz must have been at the Irwin House or had just left the Irwin House to go to Festival Foods.

Monday, Oct 3: 4:47 pm
-Debbi and her 20 year old brother purchase baby food, baby wipes, and a box of wine at the Fesitival Foods.

Monday, Oct 3: 5:20 pm
-Debbi has returned home from the store.
-Jeremy goes to his second job of the day, he has been home for two hours prior to departing. It's his first ever night shift and it's at a nearby Starbuck's.

Monday, Oct 3: 5:00 pm
-Debbi has returned home from the store. (Not know if Phil Netz went into the house or just dropped her out front and left.)
-Jim Brando leaves his home next door to begin his separation from Samantha, reportedly recommended by the marriage counsellor earlier this day.

Monday, Oct 3: 5:30 pm
-Debbi is reportedly fixing a chicken dinner for the neighbor lady and her daughter, along with Debbi's sons. Lisa not mentioned.
-Not mentioned whether the neighbor and daughter are present during the cooking or if they come over later.

Monday, Oct 3: 6:40 pm
-Debbi reportedly puts fussy Lisa to bed. We don't know where Lisa was prior to being put to bed by Debbi.

Monday, Oct 3: sometime shortly after 6:40 pm
-Debbi reportedly looks in on Lisa, Lisa is standing in her crib, Debbi lays her back down.
-This is the last time Lisa Irwin is seen.

Monday, Oct 3: between 6:30 pm and 7:00 pm
-Samantha Brando reportedly makes a run to buy liquor.

Monday, Oct 3: around 7:00 pm until around 10:30 pm
-Debbi and the neighbor sit out on Debbi's front stoop drinking wine.
*Somehow Debbi acquires a stray kitten during this time.
-Debbi's 6 year old son and Jeremy's 8 year old son and the neighbor's 4 year old daughter watch a movie in the boys' room (with bunk beds) while the moms are having "grown up time".
-A new male neighbor (Shane) hangs out with the ladies on the stoop from 7:30 pm to 9:00pm. He has reportedly never hung out there before. He claims no one was drinking, but they were all smoking and he can tell the ladies had been drinking earlier. He claims he had no idea that Debbi Bradley had a baby and no one went inside to check children.

Monday, Oct 3: around 10 pm or 10:30 pm
-According to Debbi, she was drunk; possibly enough to black out.
-Jeremy is expected to arrive home from the Starbuck's job. He does not come home. He tries but cannot reach Debbi by phone (according to lawyer); he does not call anyone else to let Debbi know that he will be more than 5 hours late from his first ever night shift.
-Presumably, the grown up time comes to an end for Debbi and she goes indoors.
Presumably, the neighbor takes her daughter home, but this has never been reported.
-Possibly Debbi is asked if both boys can sleep in her room.
-Debbi leaves a window open in the computer room.
-Debbi doesn't know if she locked the front door or not.
- Neighor Shane comes back to hang out with Samantha Brando and is reportedly outside with her from 10:30 pm to the 11:30 pm.
-Debbi thinks she turned off all of the lights when she went inside (later says her drinking buddy Samantha told her that they were off at 11:30 pm - they have a code according to Debbi's laywer).

Monday, Oct 3: 10:30pmish to Tuesday, Oct 4: 3:45 am
GAP - NO KNOWN ACTIVITY FOR DEBBI BRADLEY; NO INFORMATION PROVIDED.
-Debbi does not remember; possible she blacked out.
=Debbi has not publicly stated that she was asleep the whole time, and she has not stated that she was awake all/part of the time.
=She has not publicly stated that there were others at the house, and she has not denied others being present.
=She has not publicly stated that she left the house, and she has not denied leaving the house.
- A call out is attempted at 11:57 pm to a phone number owned by Megan Wright; call made by one of the 3 reportedly restricted cell phones that were later reported stolen.
-This 11:57 pm call and subsequent phone activity all occured within a 3 mile radius of and including the Irwin House.
■3:17 am – attempt to check voicemail on Debbi's phone.
■3:32 am – attempt check voicemail on Debbi's phone.
■5 attempts at accessing the internet from Debbi's phone.

Tuesday, Oct 4: between 3:45 am and 4:00 am
-Jeremy arrives home, nearly 6 hours past the time he was expected to leave the job site.
-He finds door unlocked, computer window open, screen tampered, all the lights on, Debbi in bed with her six year old and the stray kitten, his 8 year old presumably in his own bed, Lisa's light on and her door open (doors said to always be closed at night).
-LISA FOUND TO BE MISSING FROM HER CRIB

Tuesday, Oct 4: after 4:00 am
-After some activity (too unclear as to what Jeremy and Debbi did and said first), the parents notice that 3 cell phones are missing from the counter in the kitchen.
-The boys are awakened in the confusion and are screaming for Pumpkin.
-Jeremy runs to the neighbor's house - "do you have Lisa?" (para). Or, Jeremy discovers work cell in pocket and then they look around outside and call 911. Or, Jeremy looks outside but Debbi won't go out back because she's afraid of what she might find. Or, the couple grab a flash light and look around outside. This time frame is unclear; too many sequence changes from parents and differing media reports to pin it down thus far.

Tuesday, Oct 4: around 4:10 am
-Jeremy Irwin calls 911, presumably from his work cell phone which he found in his pocket.
-LE arrives shortly thereafter and an Amber Alert is issued for Lisa Irwin on the morning of Tuesday, Oct. 4, 2011.

:tyou:

 

[crimecurious]

Sunday, Oct 2 after party to Monday, Oct 3 at 4:30 pm
GAP - NO KNOWN ACTIVITY; NO INFORMATION ABOUT ANY ACTIVITY OF FOR IRWIN/BRADLEY FAMILY PROVIDED.

We do know that JI was at his regular job on Monday though, right?

 

[Karmaa]

That is completely inaccurate information, and depends entirely on what the dog is trained to alert to.

I think we have a couple posts on here re: Dr. Edward David.

Just a quick Google search shows me that Dr. David is considered an "expert" in his field. His book is recommended by UC Davis, and is apparently sold directly through the NASAR bookstore http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/ccab/rescue.html

No time to look further, but he seems to be someone knowledgeable in his field.

JMO

 

[yllek]

Thanks for the rundown yllek. What does "they have a code" mean?

Tacopina stated in an interview that Debbi and Samantha have a code. If one turns the lights out in her house, it's past the time for the other to come over for a visit. He said this when explaining that Debbi must have been crashed out by 11:30 p.m. and probably the abduction occured sometime after 11:30 p.m.

Let me search out the link...

 

[hambirg]

This whole case is based on assumption, speculation and guessing. It's assumed there was more than one hit. It's assumed there was a dead body in there because of one hit.

I don't operate like that. I operate on what's factual and what's known. And that is there was one and only one hit in that house. If information comes out that there was more than one, I'll based my judgements on that. But I buy into the here and not, not the what if.

I have to ask, would people put less credence into the hit if it's confirmed that multiple dogs were in fact brought in and could not confirm the hit?

I'm not assuming anything other than, because there were more than one dog there, that LE tried to confirm the hit. Whether it was confirmed or not, we don't know.

I might put less credence on it, if other dogs couldn't confirm it, but that would depend on what other dogs. We know at least one dog there that day is supposed to be the best, or at least has the reputation as being one of the best. So which dog made the hit? We don't know.

What we do know is how LE is behaving. Based on their behavior, I think they believe the validity of the hit.

All MOO

 

[yllek]

Sunday, Oct 2 after party to Monday, Oct 3 at 4:30 pm
GAP - NO KNOWN ACTIVITY; NO INFORMATION ABOUT ANY ACTIVITY OF FOR IRWIN/BRADLEY FAMILY PROVIDED.

We do know that JI, was at his regular job on Monday though, right?

We don't have a statement about the first job of the day from LE, Jeremy, Debbi or any direct source. We can presume he went to another job first because it has been reported that he was home for 2 hours between jobs, but there is no confirmation.

 

[Detective Klimpt]

-This 11:57 pm call and subsequent phone activity all occured within a 3 mile radius of and including the Irwin House.

It's a very good timeline report. I think there was one mistake, though. Wasn't the radius 1/5 to 1/3 mile and not 3 mile? Big difference.

 

[askfornina]

We don't have a statement about the first job of the day from LE, Jeremy, Debbi or any direct source. We can presume he went to another job first because it has been reported that he was home for 2 hours between jobs, but there is no confirmation.

i'm sure you know about this yllek, and it isn't a direct source, just a "source" crazy but:

http://www.kctv5.com/story/15940122/source-says-4-hour-window-for-abduction

Irwin spent the morning and early afternoon of Oct. 3 working as an electrician. He came home about 2:30 p.m. He ate with his family and played with Lisa, his son and Bradley's son.

just sayin. i appreciate the effort to stick with just the confirmed facts, though. awesome post upthread