Poll: was Patsy involved?

[andreww]

andreww,
The parent never accomplished, even minimally, what they set out to do, i.e. assuming PDI. Patsy left the breakfast bar with pineapple and glass tumbler out on full view. JonBenet's bedroom was a total mess, just what you might expect if it was the primary crime-scene. Patsy redressed JonBenet in BR's long johns and over sized Bloomingdales, despite have a complete wardrobe available in her bedroom.

The parents arrived late at the crime-scene likely JonBenet's bedroom, i.e. she was sharing a bed, so made quick decisions on cleanup and the relocation of JonBenet's body.

UKGuy,

Not sure what evidence there is to suggest that the bedroom was the crime scene? It was a mess because the family were slobs. In all likelihood Patsy was in JARs room packing, so it would have been difficult for a situation to get that far out of hand. The fact that the flashlight likely is the weapon used suggests to me that the kids were in the basement.

Because, assuming as per Kolar BDI All, BR ligature asphyxiated JonBenet but Patsy contrived the ligature plus paintbrush so to incorporate the paintbrush into a fake crime-scene, thereby allowing the missing piece of paintbrush to be removed, probably because it was bloodstained from being used to assault JonBenet?

Not sure how Patsy's fibres being all over the cord show that she only put the handle on it? If the motive was to simply dispense of the tip, why not break it off and take it with you? The brush handle simply leads investigators in the proper direction. Would that piece of cellulose found in JB have lead them to the paintbrush? Likely not. But I do believe that Patsy was simply recycling items that had already been used.

Just because Patsy's fibers are on the ligature, it does not follow she killed JonBenet!

Doesn't mean she didn't either.

 

[OliviaG1996]

Sorry. I got cut off. I was just about to say I don't see the Ramsey's wanting to live with a known murderer...son or not. I would think they would be terrified of him.



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The love a mother can have for her children is blinding. Sometimes to the point of insanity.

 

[andreww]

The love a mother can have for her children is blinding. Sometimes to the point of insanity.

Also, take in to account that she lost one child already and that she obviously would not be able to have another. If Burke were to be taken from her she'd be alone with John for the rest of her days, and we all know that relationship was far from harmonious.

 

[Pinkland]

The love a mother can have for her children is blinding. Sometimes to the point of insanity.

Perhaps, but the love a mother has for her children can lead to murder as well.

Furthermore, JonBenet was Patsy's obsession and possession. She would not embrace a child that she has pushed aside (according to many bdi theories, Burke's jealousy of JB fueled ,in part, her murder).

She would resent the person who took away her baby. She may cover for her son, but is highly unlikely that she was willing to live with him everyday knowing that he could snap at anytime, and come after her, John, other kids, and strangers.

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[kanzz]

Perhaps, but the love a mother has for her children can lead to murder as well.

Furthermore, JonBenet was Patsy's obsession and possession. She would not embrace a child that she has pushed aside (according to many bdi theories, Burke's jealousy of JB fueled ,in part, her murder).

She would resent the person who took away her baby. She may cover for her son, but is highly unlikely that she was willing to live with him everyday knowing that he could snap at anytime, and come after her, John, other kids, and strangers.

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I would be heartbroken if my oldest murdered my youngest.
I would probably be mad as hell .
I probably would think the child was disturbed and needed help.
I probably would want to get that child the help he needed.
I doubt that I could walk away from my one remaining child.
I don't really know. Nobody does.

We can say what we think we would feel &/or do, but the fact is that we don't really know.

We've talked before about living with BR in the aftermath and years following. It's my belief that he had killed his only nemesis and he was done. Could it possibly happen again? Maybe. But his mother wasn't the subject of his jealousy, he just wanted her attention. Same for his father. So, the likelihood was minimal. He was no doubt in therapy, and the counselor would have advised the parents if they were at risk.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

A picture is worth a thousand words.

He looks happier than any other photo.

 

[andreww]

Perhaps, but the love a mother has for her children can lead to murder as well.

Furthermore, JonBenet was Patsy's obsession and possession. She would not embrace a child that she has pushed aside (according to many bdi theories, Burke's jealousy of JB fueled ,in part, her murder).

She would resent the person who took away her baby. She may cover for her son, but is highly unlikely that she was willing to live with him everyday knowing that he could snap at anytime, and come after her, John, other kids, and strangers.

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Burke lives in Charlevoix and John lives in Utah. Maybe John doesn't want him around. If Burke was living anywhere else but the place John has a vacation home I might believe he has an actual job.

 

[andreww]

I would be heartbroken if my oldest murdered my youngest.
I would probably be mad as hell .
I probably would think the child was disturbed and needed help.
I probably would want to get that child the help he needed.
I doubt that I could walk away from my one remaining child.
I don't really know. Nobody does.

We can say what we think we would feel &/or do, but the fact is that we don't really know.

We've talked before about living with BR in the aftermath and years following. It's my belief that he had killed his only nemesis and he was done. Could it possibly happen again? Maybe. But his mother wasn't the subject of his jealousy, he just wanted her attention. Same for his father. So, the likelihood was minimal. He was no doubt in therapy, and the counselor would have advised the parents if they were at risk.

Remember, provided you have the money like the Ramsey's did, the best place to get help is privately and not through the penal system.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

Not sure what evidence there is to suggest that the bedroom was the crime scene? It was a mess because the family were slobs. In all likelihood Patsy was in JARs room packing, so it would have been difficult for a situation to get that far out of hand. The fact that the flashlight likely is the weapon used suggests to me that the kids were in the basement.



Not sure how Patsy's fibres being all over the cord show that she only put the handle on it? If the motive was to simply dispense of the tip, why not break it off and take it with you? The brush handle simply leads investigators in the proper direction. Would that piece of cellulose found in JB have lead them to the paintbrush? Likely not. But I do believe that Patsy was simply recycling items that had already been used.



Doesn't mean she didn't either.

andreww,

Not sure what evidence there is to suggest that the bedroom was the crime scene? It was a mess because the family were slobs. In all likelihood Patsy was in JARs room packing, so it would have been difficult for a situation to get that far out of hand. The fact that the flashlight likely is the weapon used suggests to me that the kids were in the basement.

I disagree. There was no reason for the children, quite possibly dressed in pajamas, to visit the damp, cold basement on Christmas Night.

I reckon BR and JonBenet finished snacking pineapple then headed for JonBenet's bedroom, where they shared a bed.

What happened next is unknown but JonBenet could have been whacked over the head by the barbell?

Not sure how Patsy's fibres being all over the cord show that she only put the handle on it?

They do not, I'm suggesting Patsy fashioned a garrote from the paintbrush and ligature then tied it around JonBenet's neck, faking a homicide.

If the motive was to simply dispense of the tip, why not break it off and take it with you?

That would leave obvious evidence behind, incorporating the major piece of the paintbrush into the garrote serves a double purpose, it masks its prior use and suggests a new one?

The brush handle simply leads investigators in the proper direction.

Not according to Lou Smit and fellow travelers who read EA motives into it.

Would that piece of cellulose found in JB have lead them to the paintbrush?

Yes, when they came to consider: is this a staged homicide, and by default if the missing piece was inserted inside JonBenet. Hence Meyer referencing birefringent material and not plain old cellulose?

But I do believe that Patsy was simply recycling items that had already been used.

ITA. This is a hallmark of the R's staging.

Doesn't mean she didn't either.

ITA. Its all just theory we are discussing. The case could just as easily be PDI with Patsy staging it to appear as if BDI?

.

 

[katiesmomma48]

I want to follow this


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[Pinkland]

I would be heartbroken if my oldest murdered my youngest.
I would probably be mad as hell .
I probably would think the child was disturbed and needed help.
I probably would want to get that child the help he needed.
I doubt that I could walk away from my one remaining child.
I don't really know. Nobody does.

We can say what we think we would feel &/or do, but the fact is that we don't really know.

We've talked before about living with BR in the aftermath and years following. It's my belief that he had killed his only nemesis and he was done. Could it possibly happen again? Maybe. But his mother wasn't the subject of his jealousy, he just wanted her attention. Same for his father. So, the likelihood was minimal. He was no doubt in therapy, and the counselor would have advised the parents if they were at risk.

Throughout life we have more than just one nemesis. Once you get rid of one...I would think it would be much easier to rid yourself of another...especially if you get away with it the first time...

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[Pinkland]

Remember, provided you have the money like the Ramsey's did, the best place to get help is privately and not through the penal system.

The Ramseys' had the money to ship the kid off to boarding school, military school, or a private live in facility for children with behavioral problems. Yet, they did not.

Burke lived with them. It makes no sense to keep a "known" sociopath or psychopath at home for treatment when you have many other confidential options.

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[Pinkland]

A picture is worth a thousand words.

He looks happier than any other photo.


View attachment 110887

So?? The parents look thrilled and happy as well. Would they appear that happy sitting with a child that murdered their daughter? I wouldn't think so.

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[andreww]

The Ramseys' had the money to ship the kid off to boarding school, military school, or a private live in facility for children with behavioral problems. Yet, they did not.

Burke lived with them. It makes no sense to keep a "known" sociopath or psychopath at home for treatment when you have many other confidential options.

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With that secret? They weren't shipping him anywhere.


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[katiesmomma48]

Throughout life we have more than just one nemesis. Once you get rid of one...I would think it would be much easier to rid yourself of another...especially if you get away with it the first time...

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I can see your point but if everyone is suspicious of you for the first murder you're not likely to turn around and murder again especially with all the publicity around this case. If it wasn't so high profile yes, but they would have never gotten away with a second one. I'm not saying they did it or not either because I really don't know. I don't know enough about the case. I just know they would have to be begging to get caught or stupid one to do it again.


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[kanzz]

So?? The parents look thrilled and happy as well. Would they appear that happy sitting with a child that murdered their daughter? I wouldn't think so.

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Would a spouse look that happy knowing the other had murdered their daughter? I think not.

 

[Pinkland]

Would a spouse look that happy knowing the other had murdered their daughter? I think not.

Who said the other spouse had to know? What I'm basically saying is you cannot attach any thought a subject might have based on a photo. That's just insane.

It reminds me of the song...,"The Show Must Go On" by Queen.

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[Pinkland]

With that secret? They weren't shipping him anywhere.


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Oh there have been many horrible hidden things in schools. And again if he was sent to a private behavioral therapy center he would fit right in...

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[kanzz]

I've been following this case for a long time. In my mind there is only four scenarios. PDI all, PDI Premeditated, BDI all, and BDI with a Patsy coverup.

The least likely scenario for me is BDI all. There is no doubt in my mind that Burke would not be sophisticated enough at his age to do the blow, molestation, and strangulation without leaving a bit of a forensic or physical trail linking him to this crime.

Furthermore, there is no doubt in my mind that Patsy wrote that ransom note. Also in my opinion, the fiber trail in key locations in conjuncture with the strangulation is too difficult to overlook. This leads me to believe that Patsy was at least physically connected to the strangulation aspect of the crime.

So IMO, BDI all is very unlikely. This leaves me more in the PDI camp. If Burke hit JonBenet and Patsy found her she would have called 911. If Patsy found Jonbenet strangled and assaulted, how in her right mind could she justify covering and then living with her

Perhaps, but the love a mother has for her children can lead to murder as well.

Furthermore, JonBenet was Patsy's obsession and possession. She would not embrace a child that she has pushed aside (according to many bdi theories, Burke's jealousy of JB fueled ,in part, her murder).

She would resent the person who took away her baby. She may cover for her son, but is highly unlikely that she was willing to live with him everyday knowing that he could snap at anytime, and come after her, John, other kids, and strangers.

The Ramseys' had the money to ship the kid off to boarding school, military school, or a private live in facility for children with behavioral problems. Yet, they did not.

Burke lived with them. It makes no sense to keep a "known" sociopath or psychopath at home for treatment when you have many other confidential options.

So?? The parents look thrilled and happy as well. Would they appear that happy sitting with a child that murdered their daughter? I wouldn't think so.

Who said the other spouse had to know? What I'm basically saying is you cannot attach any thought a subject might have based on a photo. That's just insane.

It reminds me of the song...,"The Show Must Go On" by Queen.

If I understand you correctly, you apparently either believe that PDI all or PDI Premeditated.

And that "the love a mother has for her children can lead to murder".
I have a very loose understanding of that bit about loving mothers killing their children, to a degree. For example - Andrea Yates, who was extremely mentally ill. But other than her, I can't think of another example off hand for what you said. Quite frankly, I am baffled.

Do you honestly think JR didn't know PR was somehow involved in the cover-up of this crime? He had to have known that she authored that so-called RN.

 

[Pinkland]

If I understand you correctly, you apparently either believe that PDI all or PDI Premeditated.

And that "the love a mother has for her children can lead to murder".
I have a very loose understanding of that bit about loving mothers killing their children, to a degree. For example - Andrea Yates, who was extremely mentally ill. But other than her, I can't think of another example off hand for what you said. Quite frankly, I am baffled.

Do you honestly think JR didn't know PR was somehow involved in the cover-up of this crime? He had to have known that she authored that so-called RN.

I'm not sure at all if JR knew the night the murder happened.

Do I think it's possible that he did not find out until later? I would say yes.

Do I believe that Patsy could have lied to JR, and blamed someone else for the murder? Yes I can see that possibility.

Do I think a spouse would cover for a spouse even if he knew the truth? I say it's very possible especially if you have lots to lose.

Also anyone whom murders someone has something mentally wrong with them. I do without a doubt think that Patsy suffered from some emotional, mental, or behavioral problems.

Could a mother suffering from mental health issues kill her child out of love? It's possible. Others have. It would not surprise me. Parents do horrible things to children all the time

Personally, I am in the PDI camp. I do not think that BDI is solid enough for many reasons. Could Burke have done it? Yes...I can see it. Is it likely...No.

There is not enough solid forensic or physical evidence to indicate he had anything to do with the strangulation; while there is some evidence of Patsy being tied to the Strangulation. It is the Strangulation that killed JBR not the bash, or the molestation.

I can poke holes in the BDI theory all day. While there are holes in PDI...there are more in the BDI theory.

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