Possible NEW Suspects In JonBenet Ramsey Case?

[vlpate]

NOTE : To mods and members - there are dozens and dozens, going into the HUNDREDS, of threads that discuss the Ramsey Family as suspects. Can we please keep this one thread on topic? This thread is about possible new suspects in the case Brian David Mitchell and Wanda Barzee. Can we please limit discussion to the pros and cons of these suspects? Thank you.

Who named BDM and WB possible suspects?

TESTIMONY OF ELIZABETH SMART

Viti: Thank you. Ms. Smart, I’d like to turn your attention to on or about ... withdrawn. Did he ever give you a reason why he chose the 23rd and 24th to kidnap Olivia?

Smart: He talked about the 24th because it was a holiday and he talked about it just being a holiday. They would be not as quick to respond.

Viti: I’m sorry, who wouldn’t be?

Smart: The public.

[AK = I wonder if BDM meant the "police", or the public in general.

Who knows what he meant....that would be speculation. We can only go by what Elizabeth testified to under oath. Perhaps the JonBenet Ramsey case came to mind - and how absolutely bungled that case was because it was on a holiday. Actually, there was no problem with a response from the "public". When the 911 was finally made, half the city of Boulder was at the Ramsey's house.

As Doug Oswell noted, JonBenet was killed on a holiday, Christmas night. Also, it appears that Mitchell may have attempted another home invasion abduction of a child from her bed on or about Christmas. He met California Mormon Church official Virl Kemp on December 8th, and Smart testified it was about two weeks later when he tried to abduct her, and it was two tries over a few days, putting the time period at December 22cd to 26th.][/b]

Absolutely not Elizabeth Smart's tesitmony. As for Virl's (a missionary), version of the story, he saw BDM outside of the church walking, his wife rolled down her window and invited BDM to dinner. Virgil had dogs outside his house and said there was never any indication anyone had tried to come into his house. There's another version of a guy, Clarke maybe, who said HE took Mitchell to the Kemp's house. If you have a source for the two failed attempts around Christmas, please post them.

Respectfully snipped
----- ----- -----

Brian David Mitchell (BDM) and the ransom note writer also use and spell "POSSESION" with 3 "S" 's, though they leave out a different "S".

Possession is one of the 50 most commonly misspelled words: http://people.howstuffworks.com/48-commonly-misspelled-words.htm

BDM and the ransom note writer also use "DIFFICULT", and the word "DEVIATE" to indicate a variance from a plan or idea.

BDM/WB also using words like ADEQUATE, POSSESSIONS, PARTICULARLY, INDIVIDUALS, BEING, INSTRUCTIONS, "am", "southern", DEVIATE, WE REPRESENT, and HENCE, just to name some that also appear in the ransom note.

NEW WORDS AND PHRASES FOUND IN BOTH THE BARZEE MITCHELL JOURNAL AND THE RANSOM NOTE

Barzee Mitchell Journal

"FOR my BURIAL" p. 30; "YE STAND" p. 32; "IN ANY WAY" p. 18; "AS WELL AS" p. 35.

Most of BDM's manifesto was plagiarized - this was even pointed out in closing arguments at the end of the trial.

JonBenet Ransom Note
"FOR proper BURIAL" ----- "YOU STAND" ---"IN ANY WAY" ------ "AS WELL AS".

John Ramsey also used the words "proper burial" during his and Patsy's interview with Bill Kurtis, which was on A&E's Aug 28, 2000 Investigative Reports. The last three phrases seem pretty common.

Respectfully snipped

A few observations:

(1) As AK pointed out earlier, Mitchell's capital M looks amazingly like the one on the Ramsey "ransom" note. I'm looking at the M in the "letter to Julie" at the site above.

respectfully snipped

AK WILKS: These are the images referenced by Doug Oswell.

Both the Ransom Note Writer and Brian David Mitchell strike out words by making circular loops.

And both the Ransom Note Writer and Brian David Mitchell do capital "M" 's in a similar way, with near identical finishing flourishes that come down like a ski slope and become nearly flat.

[/CODE]

You removed, once again, the curly up-stroke from BDM's "M". http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/14/94/97/81/letter10.jpg In handwriting analysis, the beginning stroke is significant....altering the handwriting for comparison renders your sample meaningless.

IMO, the strike-through is not at all similar - BDM gives a quick couple of circles and the ransom note writer stikes through so heavily it is nearly impossible to see what has been scratched out.
______
I believe everyone was trying to stay on task, but you asked me to explain my BDI theory - which led to other conversations and theories. In essence, you opened up the floor. Anyway, I will try not to deviate from the subject of your thread. Do you feel our pointing out facts, that oppose certain aspects of your theory, getting off the topic of the thread?

 

[AKWILKS]

Yes I also participated in us getting off track. I am asking that for this thread we now stay on topic, discussing BDM/WB as suspects, evidence for and against. Criticism and questions are fair game, no problem.

As for "who" has declared them suspects, I have, along with Doug Oswell, and the information and evidence has been sent to Boulder PD at their request.

There was a "skeleton crew" working at Boulder PD the day after Christmas. BDM struck on holidays, and JonBenet was killed on a holiday.

Each word is a choice - demands, commands or instructions. BDM/WB picked instructions, so did the ransom note writer. And that happens about 18 times - PARTICULARLY, DEVIATE, am, southern, WE REPRESENT, FOR BURIAL, AS WELL AS, YOU STAND, IN ANY WAY, BEING, HENCE, etc.

The point is what percentage of the population uses all those words? Make those specific choices?

The "M" by BDM is cursive, and Doug retained the opening loop. If you compare it to the ransom note "M", they both end with a flourish, a ski slope ending that flattens out. You don't see that?

BDM met Virl Kemp on December 8. See

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20030417/ai_n11391164/

BDM tried but gave up on abducting his daughter. Interestingly he never met the daughter - just saw a picture. Interesting because the ransom note writer never mentioned the name JonBenet. It seems to have happened right around Christmas/New Year, we don't know the exact dates. See

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/sexual_assault/elizabeth_smart/8.html

 

[vlpate]

Your memory is correct in that Patsy said in one of her interviews that she made it a habit to be sure JB went potty before going to bed.
But as far as the red turtleneck- there is some confusion there. At first, Patsy said that JB wore the red turtleneck to the White's party, because Patsy wanted her to match her own outfit of black velvet pants, red sweater. JB refused to wear it because she wanted to wear the white top that came with the outfit, which Patsy had bought recently at Gap Kids. The outfit consisted of black velvet pants and vest and white top with silver sequin star. LE confronted Patsy with photographs taken at the White's party showing JB wearing the white top, not the red one, with her black pants and vest.
There WAS a red (cotton?) turtleneck in the sink in JB's bathroom. I don't know if it was soaking in water or if it was just wet or dry in the sink. There is some inconsistencies about that. There was also a red JUMPSUIT that JB wore in a dance performance at the local mall- which Patsy mentioned was lying on an ironing board in the laundry area outside JB's bedroom.
The shower head is an interesting thought. I recall seeing some photos of JB's bathroom, but don't recall seeing or hearing about a hand-held shower head. Yes, wielded with enough force, I can see it cracking a skull, but it'd have to be the metal kind, not plastic, which would probably have broken or cracked as well. Was there a metal shower head in JB's bath?

Are we allowed to start threads here or do the mods have to approve?

 

[AKWILKS]

No. Just start your own thread on this aspect of the Ramsey topic.

Lets leave this thread for discussion of an intruder theory, possible suspects BDM and WB.

 

[Roy23]

No. Just start your own thread on this aspect of the Ramsey topic.

Lets leave this thread for discussion of an intruder theory, possible suspects BDM and WB.

Assuming that this test hasn't been already done, do you think they will give you confirmation of a test result if it is a negative?

 

[AKWILKS]

I assume you mean a DNA test? There could also be fingerprint, hair, boot print, fiber, handwriting and word usage tests/examinations.

It is a good question and I don't know the answer. This case has been plauged by leaks. When I contacted the Boulder PD I asked them if Brian David Mitchell and Wanda Barzee had already been "cleared" in the JonBenet Ramsey case. I was told NO information can be given to me as it is an open case. I then explained who I was, and asked if they wanted information on BDM and WB as suspects. I was told to send it in, and given an email to do so. From that I drew a reasonable inference that BDM/WB had NOT already been cleared.

One reason they might not tell me anything more is they have nothing to gain by doing so. Lets assume they check DNA and fingerprints, and it does not match to BDM/WB. Why not tell me or issue a press release? For one it sets a precedent. The press could follow up with "There were 38 convicted sex offenders living within x miles of the Ramsey home. Have they all been cleared? What about Mr.X and Mr. Y? What about this person?" Also, even if DNA does not match, there is always the chance of finding new DNA or other evidence in the future. So why issue a statement "clearing" two convicted child kidnappers? The DA already got flack for "clearing" the Ramsey's. In reality you really can't clear anyone, you can just say they don't match this specific piece of evidence.

So I would hope they might tell me something but I am not counting on it. I have learned via my experience on the Zodiac and Tylenol case that all you can do is establish contact with law enforcement, see if they are open to information, send them the information and evidence you have developed and then wait. You can't really get information from them, or suggest what to do. You do your research, see if they want it, and if they do you send it to them. At that point the ball is in their court, and they have to deal with politics, budgets, money, resources, rules, red tape, issues with getting evidence from other departments and legalities. They proceed when and how they see fit. They tell you very little. Sometimes you can get a small amount of info out of them, and sometimes the type of questions they ask and the subject matter of the questions reveal something.

It took me 3 years to get the FBI to seek the DNA of Ted Kaczynski in the Tylenol case, and a similar time frame for the Zodiac case.

I found out the FBI was seeking the DNA when I read it in the paper! Now, there are a few local and state investigators who have told me some important information from time to time, but often with the requirement I keep it confidential, or at least "not publicize it". Sometimes I have also got information from witnesses, family members of victims, defendants, suspects, newspaper reporters and lawyers.

 

[Roy23]

I assume you mean a DNA test? There could also be fingerprint, hair, boot print, fiber, handwriting and word usage tests/examinations.

It is a good question and I don't know the answer. This case has been plauged by leaks. When I contacted the Boulder PD I asked them if Brian David Mitchell and Wanda Barzee had already been "cleared" in the JonBenet Ramsey case. I was told NO information can be given to me as it is an open case. I then explained who I was, and asked if they wanted information on BDM and WB as suspects. I was told to send it in, and given an email to do so. From that I drew a reasonable inference that BDM/WB had NOT already been cleared.

One reason they might not tell me anything more is they have nothing to gain by doing so. Lets assume they check DNA and fingerprints, and it does not match to BDM/WB. Why not tell me or issue a press release? For one it sets a precedent. The press could follow up with "There were 38 convicted sex offenders living within x miles of the Ramsey home. Have they all been cleared? What about Mr.X and Mr. Y? What about this person?" Also, even if DNA does not match, there is always the chance of finding new DNA or other evidence in the future. So why issue a statement "clearing" two convicted child kidnappers? The DA already got flack for "clearing" the Ramsey's. In reality you really can't clear anyone, you can just say they don't match this specific piece of evidence.

So I would hope they might tell me something but I am not counting on it. I have learned via my experience on the Zodiac and Tylenol case that all you can do is establish contact with law enforcement, see if they are open to information, send them the information and evidence you have developed and then wait. You can't really get information from them, or suggest what to do. You do your research, see if they want it, and if they do you send it to them. At that point the ball is in their court, and they have to deal with politics, budgets, money, resources, rules, red tape and legalities. They proceed when and how they see fit.

It took me 3 years to get the FBI to seek the DNA of Ted Kaczynski in the Tylenol case, and a similar time frame for the Zodiac case.

I found out the FBI was seeking the DNA when I read it in the paper! Now, there are a few local and state investigators who have told me some information from time to time, but usually with the requirement I keep it confidential.

Believe it or not, I am actually have followed some of your prior work concerning Zodiac. I am way behind the times on that one. I just read Ray Grants book and would like to get your thoughts on it.

I am actually pretty certain that you will get no confirmation on anything in the Ramsey case. I sure wish they would clear up a lot of the mess that has been made.

 

[AKWILKS]

Thanks. I know Ray Grant, I have exchanged emails with him many times. He seems very smart and is nice, but I personally don't think much of any theory that points to Michael O'Hare or Gareth Penn as the Zodiac. Its interesting stuff, but I just don't think any solid real evidence points to them.

You can see the work of myself and Doug Oswell at www.unazod.com and the message board there. Also, right here at Websleuths in the "Cold Cases" section, I have two contributed to two threads on Zodiac and one on Tylenol.

I just sent some follow up info to Boulder PD. Also, for the first time, I contacted two newspaper reporters, one in Boulder and one in Denver. In my experience newspaper and other media coverage often helps spur police to get things done. Also newspaper coverage might turn up people who saw BDM and WB in the Boulder area. Or turn up new info to implicate or clear BDM and WB. If anyone has any media contacts open to the intruder theory who you think might be interested in this story, please direct them here or to http://unazod.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=136 . Or give me their email.

 

[vlpate]

BDM tried but gave up on abducting his daughter. Interestingly he never met the daughter - just saw a picture. Interesting because the ransom note writer never mentioned the name JonBenet. It seems to have happened right around Christmas/New Year, we don't know the exact dates. See

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/sexual_assault/elizabeth_smart/8.html

The ransom note didn't have to mention JonBenet's name - the note was to John and they weren't kidnapping the grown or other dead daughter.

You stated Elizabeth testified to BDM's attempted kidnapping of Virl's daughter and the timeline being around Christmas, which is not a fact. Now you say you don't know for sure.

Altered handwriting would never be admissable as evidence. Using similar words and misspelling words that are in the top 50 misspelled words is not evidence. Using duct tape in a crime is definitely not rare, nor is using a knife - hardly evidence. You have no source to indicate BDM was anywhere near Boulder on December 26, 2011. There is no hair or fiber evidence to implicate BDM - and there is no motive that would relate to BDM. He wanted a young wife, not a dead 6 year old. BDM was a serial pedophile, not a serial killer.

I would love to see one piece of evidence that would be admissable in court - that wouldn't be blown out of the water by a defense attorney. Possible DNA match, not so much - it could belong to anyone.

 

[DeeDee249]

Are we allowed to start threads here or do the mods have to approve?

My post is quoted in your original question and it doesn't have anything to do with the question, but anyone may start a thread here on the JB forum, as long as it is about this case in some way. The Mods don't have to approve a thread or post, but they will remove anything they feel needs to be removed.

 

[vlpate]

Federal Heights - Smart Home and surrounding area
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7DKUS_en&q=federal+heights,+utah&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1024&bih=487&wrapid=tlif131181625090510&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

749 15th Street, Boulder, Colorado (Ramsey Home) deep in a neighborhood
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=749+1...code_result&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQ8gEwAA

 

[AKWILKS]

I do not own a DNA lab, and I do not have the legal power to force anyone to give fingerprints or DNA.

I am presenting information regarding circumstantial evidence, MO, handwriting, word choice and timeline to the police. If they deem it interesting they have the power to get the scientific evidence to include or exclude Brian David Mitchell and Wanda Barzee as suspects.

I asked Boulder PD if Brian David Mitchell had been cleared. They told me as it was an open case they couldn't release any information. I then asked them if they wanted information and evidence about Mitchell as a suspect in the JonBenet case. They told me to send it in and gave me an email address.

From that I draw a reasonable inference that he has NOT yet been cleared. Remember, he was just convicted in May 2011 on federal charges. Prior to that there would have been no legal basis to obtain DNA. Currently the DNA backlog is 300,000 profiles waiting to be put into CODIS. Under routine procedure Mitchell would go to the back of this line, meaning it could be several years before it happens.

I sent the evidence to Boulder PD so that they can speed up the process. Perhaps even by seeking a court order to get the DNA.

Ted Kaczynski has spent 13 years in prison as a federal convict and they still do have his DNA, as we saw in the recent headlines when the FBI acted on information from me and Doug Oswell and requested it in the Tylenol case.

 

[mtwentz]

The ransom note didn't have to mention JonBenet's name - the note was to John and they weren't kidnapping the grown or other dead daughter.

You stated Elizabeth testified to BDM's attempted kidnapping of Virl's daughter and the timeline being around Christmas, which is not a fact. Now you say you don't know for sure.

Altered handwriting would never be admissable as evidence. Using similar words and misspelling words that are in the top 50 misspelled words is not evidence. Using duct tape in a crime is definitely not rare, nor is using a knife - hardly evidence. You have no source to indicate BDM was anywhere near Boulder on December 26, 2011. There is no hair or fiber evidence to implicate BDM - and there is no motive that would relate to BDM. He wanted a young wife, not a dead 6 year old. BDM was a serial pedophile, not a serial killer.

I would love to see one piece of evidence that would be admissable in court - that wouldn't be blown out of the water by a defense attorney. Possible DNA match, not so much - it could belong to anyone.

If the DNA were a match, I think it would be all that would be needed (unless BDM could prove he was not in the state of Colorado), IMO, to get a conviction. What possible innocent explanation could there be for BDM's DNA to be on JB's clothing?

Honesty, I don't think he killed JB either, but if there's even a slight chance it could be him, why not? He should get into CODIS as soon as possible anyway, given the gravity of his crime.

 

[Chrishope]

Staying on track, it looks to me like the M/B theory is pretty week. Especially as to motive. I'm in favor of making the DNA test, but based on what Cynic has told us about DNA, I'd be surprised if there is ever a match to anyone.

 

[horatio]

DNA isn't gonna solve this case. A legitimate confession is the only thing that will close it.

 

[vlpate]

I sent the evidence to Boulder PD so that they can speed up the process. Perhaps even by seeking a court order to get the DNA.

There has already been a court order to draw BDM's DNA, you must know that. It only stands to reason he has been put into CODIS - unless you have a documented source that says otherwise.

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=15696692

It is the judgment of the court that Brian David Mitchell, be placed in the custody for life. The defendant shall submit a DNA sample to the Bureau of Prisons. The defendant committed offenses and shall report addresses he resided and register as a sex offender in any state.

 

[vlpate]

My post is quoted in your original question and it doesn't have anything to do with the question, but anyone may start a thread here on the JB forum, as long as it is about this case in some way. The Mods don't have to approve a thread or post, but they will remove anything they feel needs to be removed.

Sorry, the quote didn't have anything to do with the question - I was about to discuss what you wrote but AK was requesting the discussion stay on task, so I wanted to move what we were discussing. I actually found an old thread on the shower head theory.

 

[AKWILKS]

There has already been a court order to draw BDM's DNA, you must know that. It only stands to reason he has been put into CODIS - unless you have a documented source that says otherwise.

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=15696692

It is the judgment of the court that Brian David Mitchell, be placed in the custody for life. The defendant shall submit a DNA sample to the Bureau of Prisons. The defendant committed offenses and shall report addresses he resided and register as a sex offender in any state.

1. I asked Boulder PD if Brian David Mitchell was cleared as a suspect in the JonBenet Ramsey case, by DNA or other means. While they have issued clearances for John and Burke Ramsey, and indicated that registered sex offenders in the neighborhood did not match the possible suspect DNA, they would not answer my question. They did tell me to send the information and evidence developed by myself, Doug Oswell and Zander Kite about Brian David Mitchell and Wanda Barzee as suspects in the JonBenet Ramsey case. From that I drew a reasonable inference that BDM has not yet been cleared.

2. The sentence and DNA order for Mitchell was entered on May 25, 2011. I believe it is being appealed. That would tend to support what I have said, which is that prior to this sentence date, their was no legal authority to compel a DNA draw from Mitchell. BDM might refuse any DNA extraction until the appeal is over, and even then may physically refuse.

3. In any event, the current backlog of DNA profiles awaiting entry into CODIS is about 300,000. Absent a special request from the Boulder PD, CBI or FBI, Mitchell would by routine procedure go to the back of this line, meaning actual entry could take place in two to four years, or longer.

See http://www.capemaycountyherald.com/article/33122-county-cold-case-investigation-hindered-dna-backlog

http://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/fbi-efforts-to-eliminate-the-dna-backlog

http://www.forensicfocusmag.com/articles/3b1cover.html

"One of the most substantial issues facing the criminal justice and forensic community is the backlog of unanalyzed DNA samples and biological evidence from crime scenes. According to the National Institute of Justice (NIJ), the current backlog of samples from rape and homicide cases is 350,000. NIJ estimates of the backlog of convicted offender samples is between 200,000 and 300,000, as well as between 500,000 and 1 million samples that are required under law but not yet collected (23 states require all convicted felons to provide DNA samples). "



4. Ted Kaczynski was arrested in 1996 and was convicted in 1998. He has, as of todays date July 28 2011, still not had DNA extracted from his body or put into CODIS. In May 2011 the FBI stated they would seek a court order to get the DNA of Kaczynski.

5. I have given the information and evidence on BDM and Wanda Barzee as suspects in the JonBenet Ramsey case to Boulder PD in the hope that if they find it interesting they will seek to expediate the inclusion of Mitchell's and Barzee's DNA into CODIS or obtain it on their own for comparison, as well as make comparisons of fingerprints, fibers, bootprints, handwriting and word usage.

 

[vlpate]

1. I asked Boulder PD if Brian David Mitchell was cleared as a suspect in the JonBenet Ramsey case, by DNA or other means. While they have issued clearances for John and Burke Ramsey, and indicated that registered sex offenders in the neighborhood did not match the possible suspect DNA, they would not answer my question. They did tell me to send the information and evidence developed by myself, Doug Oswell and Zander Kite about Brian David Mitchell and Wanda Barzee as suspects in the JonBenet Ramsey case. From that I drew a reasonable inference that BDM has not yet been cleared.

2. The sentence and DNA order for Mitchell was entered on May 25, 2011. I believe it is being appealed. That would tend to support what I have said, which is that prior to this sentence date, their was no legal authority to compel a DNA draw from Mitchell. BDM might refuse any DNA extraction until the appeal is over, and even then may physically refuse.

3. In any event, the current backlog of DNA profiles awaiting entry into CODIS is about 300,000. Absent a special request from the Boulder PD, CBI or FBI, Mitchell would by routine procedure go to the back of this line, meaning actual entry could take place in two to four years, or longer.

See http://www.capemaycountyherald.com/article/33122-county-cold-case-investigation-hindered-dna-backlog

http://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/fbi-efforts-to-eliminate-the-dna-backlog

http://www.forensicfocusmag.com/articles/3b1cover.html

"One of the most substantial issues facing the criminal justice and forensic community is the backlog of unanalyzed DNA samples and biological evidence from crime scenes. According to the National Institute of Justice (NIJ), the current backlog of samples from rape and homicide cases is 350,000. NIJ estimates of the backlog of convicted offender samples is between 200,000 and 300,000, as well as between 500,000 and 1 million samples that are required under law but not yet collected (23 states require all convicted felons to provide DNA samples). "



4. Ted Kaczynski was arrested in 1996 and was convicted in 1998. He has, as of todays date July 28 2011, still not had DNA extracted from his body or put into CODIS. In May 2011 the FBI stated they would seek a court order to get the DNA of Kaczynski.

5. I have given the information and evidence on BDM and Wanda Barzee as suspects in the JonBenet Ramsey case to Boulder PD in the hope that if they find it interesting they will seek to expediate the inclusion of Mitchell's and Barzee's DNA into CODIS or obtain it on their own for comparison, as well as make comparisons of fingerprints, fibers, bootprints, handwriting and word usage.

You surely know this is if you are keeping up with your "suspects".
http://crime.about.com/b/2011/07/12/no-appeal-for-brain-david-mitchell.htm

Did you happen to ask the BPD if BDM IS a suspect? Why would they clear someone as a suspect if they were never a suspect to begin with?

BPD takes information from all sorts of theororists - take Nancy Krebbs, aka, mystery woman. Beckner even made an announcement after a complete investigation of her wacky claims. Not that your claims are wacky, just sayin', they have a responsibility to accept tips.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

One word for this BDM theory.

FAIL.