Possible NEW Suspects In JonBenet Ramsey Case?

Welcome to Websleuths!
Click to learn how to make a missing person's thread

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
First post - be gentle. A few things I've been thinking about BDM/WB being the killer:

A. If they were indeed in Colorado at that time, it could be possible that they met the Ramseys at their church - as a couple in need of food, work, etc - maybe BDM did do under the table jobs at the Ramsey home - maybe he and Wanda even broke in and lived in their basement for a day or two prior to JonBenet's death - and had plenty of time to move about in the house, listen in on conversations, snoop when the Rs were away, etc.

They wouldn't have gone to the same church and the Ramsey's were not known for their benevolence. They spent time in the basement because Burke's train room was down there. As you said, the house was huge, over 7,000 square feet - to eavesdrop they would have to be wearing sonic ears.

It is not unheard of for people to break in when homeowners are away and to stay in the basement - that happened in Ottawa with Russell Williams (his victim went downstairs to get her cat from the furnace room and RW was there waiting for her). If BDM and WB were homeless and the house was big, they may have felt quite comfortable there - they were pretty brazen, bold people it seems.

Again, they spent time in the basement - Burke's train set, Patsy's paints, Christmas stuff. It's possible (trying to be open minded and gentle)

2. Maybe the reason Burke's boot print was possibly in the basement - an area that no one ever went into - was because he heard something down there and went to check? He is only 9, but maybe he just thought it was his mom hiding Christmas presents or something down there - but it was BDM or WB that he actually heard. He probably didn't check the entire basement, being only 9.

See above

3. Also, maybe the suitcase was under the window because BDM was passing things to or from the outside where WB was waiting on the night of the attempted kidnapping or murder? Or maybe they had used this opening previously to pass things through? I do think the suitcase was packed in order to take with them with JB. Maybe they were just communicating through this window during the kidnapping attempt? I'm still unsure as to why they were in the basement and hadn't just exited through the main level door in order to make a fast escape - maybe they forgot the packed suitcase in the basement and went to get it, but at that point JB screamed or something, leading to the murder? And once BDM administered the death blow, maybe he just figured he couldn't let an opportunity pass him by, raped her, and then garrotted her just to make sure she was absolutely dead?

The blanket had John Andrew Ramsey's semen, a pillow sham and a Cat In The Hat Book. JAR was cleared early on as he was not in Boulder at the time.

4. Maybe this was so muddled (i.e. unorganized) - JB left in the basement, headblow, garrotte, etc., was because it was their first attempt at a kidnapping. Maybe it was more of a crime of opportunity - they were staying in the Rs basement, and saw JB or her picture in the house when snooping, and decided then to kidnap her and did not have a very well thought out plan B in case something were to go wrong (i.e. JB were to scream or fight).

Well, I'm not a kidnapper, but the possiblility of a child screaming when I try to take her out of her home would at least occur to me :)

5. Regarding the RN - maybe WB or BDM practiced PRs handwriting - I know that I yself can copy signatures very easily, and when I was an adolescent I wrote a note to my one brother in my other brother's handwriting - it took me just a few seconds to figure out how to copy his writing - and my entire family thought my brother had in fact written the note (I confessed within minutes - I'm a lightweight). Sometimes my friends have me copy signatures as a party trick. WB may have had this ability because she did work on changing her writing, so it may have been a talent of hers.

It was a two page ransom note - one would have to be pretty confident they had the writing down to be so brazen.

6. Regarding JB eating the pineapple - I've read that some people think she went downstairs to get a snack - in my experience, my kids would never at age six have gone to the kitchen themselves to get a snack, especially in the middle of the night. They would have woken me up and said "I'm hungry" - although, once asleep, they would never have woken up and wanted a snack, really. IMO, it makes sense that WB or BDM would have made a snack for JB to comfort her, maybe even provide sustenance for a long walk about to take place.

Just a few thoughts, I still have to read the majority of JB threads here so please forgive me if these have already been thoroughly discussed.

It would probably be better to go to acandyrose.com and read the facts of the case, rather than this, or any other theory thread. Taking out what isn't fact narrows down the BDM/WB possibility.
 
First post - be gentle. A few things I've been thinking about BDM/WB being the killer:

A. If they were indeed in Colorado at that time, it could be possible that they met the Ramseys at their church - as a couple in need of food, work, etc - maybe BDM did do under the table jobs at the Ramsey home - maybe he and Wanda even broke in and lived in their basement for a day or two prior to JonBenet's death - and had plenty of time to move about in the house, listen in on conversations, snoop when the Rs were away, etc. It is not unheard of for people to break in when homeowners are away and to stay in the basement - that happened in Ottawa with Russell Williams (his victim went downstairs to get her cat from the furnace room and RW was there waiting for her). If BDM and WB were homeless and the house was big, they may have felt quite comfortable there - they were pretty brazen, bold people it seems.

2. Maybe the reason Burke's boot print was possibly in the basement - an area that no one ever went into - was because he heard something down there and went to check? He is only 9, but maybe he just thought it was his mom hiding Christmas presents or something down there - but it was BDM or WB that he actually heard. He probably didn't check the entire basement, being only 9.

3. Also, maybe the suitcase was under the window because BDM was passing things to or from the outside where WB was waiting on the night of the attempted kidnapping or murder? Or maybe they had used this opening previously to pass things through? I do think the suitcase was packed in order to take with them with JB. Maybe they were just communicating through this window during the kidnapping attempt? I'm still unsure as to why they were in the basement and hadn't just exited through the main level door in order to make a fast escape - maybe they forgot the packed suitcase in the basement and went to get it, but at that point JB screamed or something, leading to the murder? And once BDM administered the death blow, maybe he just figured he couldn't let an opportunity pass him by, raped her, and then garrotted her just to make sure she was absolutely dead?

4. Maybe this was so muddled (i.e. unorganized) - JB left in the basement, headblow, garrotte, etc., was because it was their first attempt at a kidnapping. Maybe it was more of a crime of opportunity - they were staying in the Rs basement, and saw JB or her picture in the house when snooping, and decided then to kidnap her and did not have a very well thought out plan B in case something were to go wrong (i.e. JB were to scream or fight).

5. Regarding the RN - maybe WB or BDM practiced PRs handwriting - I know that I myself can copy signatures very easily, and when I was an adolescent I wrote a note to my one brother in my other brother's handwriting - it took me just a few seconds to figure out how to copy his writing - and my entire family thought my brother had in fact written the note (I confessed within minutes - I'm a lightweight). Sometimes my friends have me copy signatures as a party trick. WB may have had this ability because she did work on changing her writing, so it may have been a talent of hers.

6. Regarding JB eating the pineapple - I've read that some people think she went downstairs to get a snack - in my experience, my kids would never at age six have gone to the kitchen themselves to get a snack, especially in the middle of the night. They would have woken me up and said "I'm hungry" - although, once asleep, they would never have woken up and wanted a snack, really. IMO, it makes sense that WB or BDM would have made a snack for JB to comfort her, maybe even provide sustenance for a long walk about to take place.

Just a few thoughts, I still have to read the majority of JB threads here so please forgive me if these have already been thoroughly discussed.

Welcome to the forum.

Some thoughts on your post.
BR owned shoes that could have made that shoeprint, but it was not proved that the print was actually made by a shoe owned by him. Hi-Tec is a popular brand of shoe often worn by contractors and police as well.
The suitcase was moved by R friend FW when he made search of the basement very early that morning, unbeknownst to JR. This was the same time FW also said he looked into the wineceller (were the body was found) yet did not see the body.
Doubtful JB went to have pineapple alone. Patsy prints were found on the bowl, and Patsy also said that JB wouldn't have reached the bowl in the fridge to get it out.
You can get a real knowledge of the case by reading here:
http://www.acandyrose.com and be sure to scroll down to the JonBenet Ramsey archives. There are lots of photos too, as well as the police interviews. Lots of info. There are books recommended there as well. And if you are pressed for time, you can get a 2-hour "tutorial" on the case by renting the DVD "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town" by Lawrence Schiller, who wrote a book of the same name (worth reading too). The "made for TV" movie follows his book really well, and Schiller was given access to the home to recreate the rooms for his movie.
 
6. Regarding JB eating the pineapple - I've read that some people think she went downstairs to get a snack - in my experience, my kids would never at age six have gone to the kitchen themselves to get a snack, especially in the middle of the night. They would have woken me up and said "I'm hungry" - although, once asleep, they would never have woken up and wanted a snack, really. IMO, it makes sense that WB or BDM would have made a snack for JB to comfort her, maybe even provide sustenance for a long walk about to take place.

Just a few thoughts, I still have to read the majority of JB threads here so please forgive me if these have already been thoroughly discussed.
No need to apologize for bringing things up that have been discussed before. That's all we do here is talk about the same evidence that we've known about for 10 or more years. :-)

Respectfully, I don't think BDM/WB making a pineapple snack for JB makes much sense. Presumably JB didn't know them, so would be frightened of them being in her house at night. Even if she had met them before, she'd know, even at age 6, that something was very wrong about them being in the house at night while her parents were asleep.
 
No need to apologize for bringing things up that have been discussed before. That's all we do here is talk about the same evidence that we've known about for 10 or more years. :-)

Respectfully, I don't think BDM/WB making a pineapple snack for JB makes much sense. Presumably JB didn't know them, so would be frightened of them being in her house at night. Even if she had met them before, she'd know, even at age 6, that something was very wrong about them being in the house at night while her parents were asleep.

15 years, to be almost exact. Can you believe it?? Fifteen years - JonBenet would be 21 this month.

Her father, John Ramsey, just remarried and it was hardly noticed by anyone.

Time heals all wounds - not so much.
 
I'm not trying to be offensive, but you genuinely do not seem to recognize the significance of the fact that JBR's dead body was in her home, along with the RN. Polly Klass was not in her home when reported missing. Jaycee Dugard was not in her home when reported missing. Elizabeth Smart was not in her home when reported missing. The Lindberg baby was not in the home when reported missing.

Even if we assume that the Rs are innocent - you know, just for the sake of discussion- when JBR's body was found the case transformed from kidnapping to murder. A murder of a girl, in her own home. At that point, it just makes sense for the parents to be prime suspects.

If JBR's body had been found miles away, or never found at all, there would be little reason to suspect the Rs. The fact that the body was found in the home is an excellent reason to suspect the Rs.

You're right that investigators can't close their mind to various possibilities, but death at the hands of a family member does seem much more likely, to most people, than an intruder.

Hopefully the CODIS comparison will be made sooner, rather than later. That way we can either solve the crime, or lay to rest another theory.


.....Isn't it funny that in all their frantic searching when they were initially looking for JBR before calling the police, including even looking under the bed for her, that they didn't think to look in the Wine Cellar/Windowless Basement room at that time? ....But after the police came, when they were told to look around the house again for anything out of place or out of the ordinary, the first place that John Ramsey goes to is the locked Wine Cellar?

Why didn't he look there when searching for JonBenet when they first realized she was missing? And why would he go there the second time around, and go straight there first? Especially if the room was locked - the least used room in the house, that no one would know about unless they knew the house?

I think the answer is simple.
 
.....Isn't it funny that in all their frantic searching when they were initially looking for JBR before calling the police, including even looking under the bed for her, that they didn't think to look in the Wine Cellar/Windowless Basement room at that time? ....But after the police came, when they were told to look around the house again for anything out of place or out of the ordinary, the first place that John Ramsey goes to is the locked Wine Cellar?

Why didn't he look there when searching for JonBenet when they first realized she was missing? And why would he go there the second time around, and go straight there first? Especially if the room was locked - the least used room in the house, that no one would know about unless they knew the house?

I think the answer is simple.

Also, JBR used to sleep with her brother sometimes. So when they saw she was not in her bed, and after looking around upstairs and in the kitchen, one would think the R's would simply wake Burke up and ask him if he knew where she was. I mean, they were looking everywhere...under beds, in closets, everywhere - seems the first and easiest thing to do would be ask Burke. The R's said he never woke up and he didn't know a thing about what went on. That's where it begins - hinky from the get-go.
 
Here's another thing that's "hinky" (I love that word).

When a parent finds a ransom note indicated their child has been kidnapped, why would they look ANYWHERE at all? Does a kidnapper hide the victim under the bed? Or in the house an all? No. A real kidnapper removes the victim from the location. Dead or alive.
And Patsy claims she found the note FIRST.
A kidnapped child doesn't "hide" under the bed. Or in the basement. Or anywhere else.
JB wasn't supposed to be "hiding". She was supposed to be "kidnapped".
 
Here's another thing that's "hinky" (I love that word).

When a parent finds a ransom note indicated their child has been kidnapped, why would they look ANYWHERE at all? Does a kidnapper hide the victim under the bed? Or in the house an all? No. A real kidnapper removes the victim from the location. Dead or alive.
And Patsy claims she found the note FIRST.
A kidnapped child doesn't "hide" under the bed. Or in the basement. Or anywhere else.
JB wasn't supposed to be "hiding". She was supposed to be "kidnapped".

This is why I think Detective Arndt told John and Fleet to check the house again when no call came in, I think she suspected something. John disappeared for two hours - said he was checking the mail. I've always believed he moved the body during that time because no one had found it. Remember when John brought JonBenet up, Arndt felt compelled to check her gun (or something to that effect).
 
This is why I think Detective Arndt told John and Fleet to check the house again when no call came in, I think she suspected something. John disappeared for two hours - said he was checking the mail. I've always believed he moved the body during that time because no one had found it. Remember when John brought JonBenet up, Arndt felt compelled to check her gun (or something to that effect).

The way it was supposed to have happened was that Arndt, frustrated at the refusal of her bosses to send back-up help, told the chief of police that she was having trouble keeping track of all the people in the house (wonder why she just didn't send them away - except for the Rs) and that she had lost track of JR. She was told to "give him something to do". She did. She told him to take another look around in case there was anything unusual. He took FW with him. I am sure it was because he wanted FW to witness his finding the body - and he knew just where to look, of course. Det. Arndt said that she was surprised herself when he headed straight to the basement, when a more logical place would be the last place she was seen alive- the place she was allegedly taken from- her bedroom.
It was Det. Arndt who admitted making the "assumption" that JR had gone to get his mail because she saw him looking through some mail. In reality, she admitted in one of her depositions that she really had no idea where he was during the time she lost track of him. The Rs mail was delivered to a mail slot in the front door of the house, so there was no need to go outside to a mailbox and a parent allegedly waiting for a phone call from his child's kidnappers shouldn't be driving over to the post office. Not to mention someone (her?) would have heard or seen him starting his car and driving away.
I agree that during the nearly 2 hours he was missing that he was probably in the basement, possibly adjusting the body or crime scene.
If he DID move the body, he didn't move it far. The WC was the only area in the basement NOT checked by Officer French that morning. The livor mortis pattern indicated she was placed on her back within 15 minutes or so of death and the rigor mortis indicated she was left on her back as she was found within about 30 - 60 minutes of her death. Wherever she was, she was flat on her back, legs straight out all that time. I'd say if she was moved at all it was from the deeper recesses of the wineceller to a position closer to the door, so she'd be easily seen when JR opened the door.
I think JR was stressed because her body remained undiscovered and he realized that the police might not allow them to remain in the house after they left. And they might not have been allowed back in for days- making the discovery of her body extremely gruesome, possibly not until neighbor's noticed the awful smell. No way he was going to risk that. So when he was given a chance by Arndt- he ran like a shot to the basement and "found" her.
 
I agree that during the nearly 2 hours he was missing that he was probably in the basement, possibly adjusting the body or crime scene.

Maybe, but it's risky. There was a house full of people. How easy would it be for him to go down there, and come back w/o being noticed? I suppose going into the basement is easy enough, you wait 'till the coast is clear, then go. Coming back, how do you know someone isn't near the door?

Once he "finds" the body, he doesn't want someone saying "I saw JR go down the basement a few hours ago".

I think JR was stressed because her body remained undiscovered and he realized that the police might not allow them to remain in the house after they left. And they might not have been allowed back in for days- making the discovery of her body extremely gruesome, possibly not until neighbor's noticed the awful smell. No way he was going to risk that. So when he was given a chance by Arndt- he ran like a shot to the basement and "found" her.

It remained a kidnapping case for as long as the body was undiscovered. There would be no reason for the police to force the Rs to leave their house.

I think the stress was from the fact that Officer French and FW both had failed to discover the body. He couldn't just go down there, on his own, and come back with the body. He had to sit a wait. I think you're right that when given the chance, he seized it by heading directly to the WC.
 
The way it was supposed to have happened was that Arndt, frustrated at the refusal of her bosses to send back-up help, told the chief of police that she was having trouble keeping track of all the people in the house (wonder why she just didn't send them away - except for the Rs) and that she had lost track of JR. She was told to "give him something to do". She did. She told him to take another look around in case there was anything unusual. He took FW with him. I am sure it was because he wanted FW to witness his finding the body - and he knew just where to look, of course. Det. Arndt said that she was surprised herself when he headed straight to the basement, when a more logical place would be the last place she was seen alive- the place she was allegedly taken from- her bedroom.
It was Det. Arndt who admitted making the "assumption" that JR had gone to get his mail because she saw him looking through some mail. In reality, she admitted in one of her depositions that she really had no idea where he was during the time she lost track of him. The Rs mail was delivered to a mail slot in the front door of the house, so there was no need to go outside to a mailbox and a parent allegedly waiting for a phone call from his child's kidnappers shouldn't be driving over to the post office. Not to mention someone (her?) would have heard or seen him starting his car and driving away.
I agree that during the nearly 2 hours he was missing that he was probably in the basement, possibly adjusting the body or crime scene.
If he DID move the body, he didn't move it far. The WC was the only area in the basement NOT checked by Officer French that morning. The livor mortis pattern indicated she was placed on her back within 15 minutes or so of death and the rigor mortis indicated she was left on her back as she was found within about 30 - 60 minutes of her death. Wherever she was, she was flat on her back, legs straight out all that time. I'd say if she was moved at all it was from the deeper recesses of the wineceller to a position closer to the door, so she'd be easily seen when JR opened the door.
I think JR was stressed because her body remained undiscovered and he realized that the police might not allow them to remain in the house after they left. And they might not have been allowed back in for days- making the discovery of her body extremely gruesome, possibly not until neighbor's noticed the awful smell. No way he was going to risk that. So when he was given a chance by Arndt- he ran like a shot to the basement and "found" her.

DeeDee249,
Could JonBenet have been naked from the waist down, possibly wearing the nightgown?

John could have redressed JonBenet in the size-12's, and longjohns, at this point pocketing the remaining underwear or depositing them somewhere for retrieval e.g. golfbag. At a stretch he could have added the paintbrush handle to the ligature, the nylon cord restraints and the duct-tape from a box or the back of a painting etc. He would leave the doll and nightgown behind since these are deal breakers if he is seen with them when leaving the basement, but he did not forget to wipe the flashlight clean when he placed it back?




.
 
DeeDee249,
Could JonBenet have been naked from the waist down, possibly wearing the nightgown?

John could have redressed JonBenet in the size-12's, and longjohns, at this point pocketing the remaining underwear or depositing them somewhere for retrieval e.g. golfbag. At a stretch he could have added the paintbrush handle to the ligature, the nylon cord restraints and the duct-tape from a box or the back of a painting etc. He would leave the doll and nightgown behind since these are deal breakers if he is seen with them when leaving the basement, but he did not forget to wipe the flashlight clean when he placed it back?




.

I suppose she could have been wearing the pink nightie with no underwear. But I don't think JR would have done the rest of the staging- removing the nightie, putting on the white Gap shirt, size 12 panties and longjohns during his "missing" 2-hours. Way too risky. For one, he might have been seen going up to her room to get the shirt and longjohns. That would be a huge problem. Then, there was the risk of Arndt either looking for him herself or sending someone to find him. I don't know is JR was in the basement with JB the whole time he was "missing" and frankly, I am not completely sure of Arndt's time frame either. She was wrong about JR "going to get his mail"- she may be wrong about how long he was actually missing.
The original panties along with the remaining cord and tape (if there were any leftover) certainly could have been places in the golf bag- since that golf bag was one of the things asked for specifically by JR at a time when playing golf (in December in Colorado) should have been the last thing on his mind is a good indication he had a really good reason to ask for it. But all those items: panties, tape, cord- are small and could have been concealed many places, including hidden in the Rs clothing as the left the house. They weren't searched. I also wonder if these missing items could have been placed in a neighbor's trash can. While police should have searched the Rs garbage, they probably didn't search the neighbor's. Someone could have slipped out during the night to dispose of them.
I'd like to know more about that doll. It looks like a 1996 Holiday Barbie in the cellophane box. I'd like to know if there was a SECOND doll like that under the Christmas tree upstairs. That doll would have been a perfect Christmas gift for any girl that year, and it is possible Patsy bought one for JB AND another child as a gift. Jenny maybe? Though she was 12, plenty of girls that age and older still collect special dolls like the Holiday Barbie- my own daughter got them as gifts till she went to college! Kept them still in the boxes on shelves in her room. Finding there was a second doll for JB means that the doll in the wineceller may have been actually wrapped as a gift for another child, and unwrapped in the search for the panties. If that is the case, it wasn't some ominous part of a ritual staging of JB, but simply something that was unwrapped by whoever looked for the panties in the packages and left there.
 
I suppose she could have been wearing the pink nightie with no underwear. But I don't think JR would have done the rest of the staging- removing the nightie, putting on the white Gap shirt, size 12 panties and longjohns during his "missing" 2-hours. Way too risky. For one, he might have been seen going up to her room to get the shirt and longjohns. That would be a huge problem. Then, there was the risk of Arndt either looking for him herself or sending someone to find him. I don't know is JR was in the basement with JB the whole time he was "missing" and frankly, I am not completely sure of Arndt's time frame either. She was wrong about JR "going to get his mail"- she may be wrong about how long he was actually missing.
The original panties along with the remaining cord and tape (if there were any leftover) certainly could have been places in the golf bag- since that golf bag was one of the things asked for specifically by JR at a time when playing golf (in December in Colorado) should have been the last thing on his mind is a good indication he had a really good reason to ask for it. But all those items: panties, tape, cord- are small and could have been concealed many places, including hidden in the Rs clothing as the left the house. They weren't searched. I also wonder if these missing items could have been placed in a neighbor's trash can. While police should have searched the Rs garbage, they probably didn't search the neighbor's. Someone could have slipped out during the night to dispose of them.
I'd like to know more about that doll. It looks like a 1996 Holiday Barbie in the cellophane box. I'd like to know if there was a SECOND doll like that under the Christmas tree upstairs. That doll would have been a perfect Christmas gift for any girl that year, and it is possible Patsy bought one for JB AND another child as a gift. Jenny maybe? Though she was 12, plenty of girls that age and older still collect special dolls like the Holiday Barbie- my own daughter got them as gifts till she went to college! Kept them still in the boxes on shelves in her room. Finding there was a second doll for JB means that the doll in the wineceller may have been actually wrapped as a gift for another child, and unwrapped in the search for the panties. If that is the case, it wasn't some ominous part of a ritual staging of JB, but simply something that was unwrapped by whoever looked for the panties in the packages and left there.

DeeDee249,
So probably not with this scenario, but we do know he had the opportunity, he may have tweaked the wine-cellar staging and cleaned up a little.

Yes there may have been another doll in the house. Like JonBenet's underwear brands, BDP are keeping this information confidential.

A doll for Jenny makes sense but Patsy never mentioned this in her interview when she pointed out the doll. I'm not ruling the doll as a gift out, but looks to me as if the doll is staging e.g. consider JonBenet lying in bed wearing her pink barbie nightgown and holding her barbie doll close to her. Cue right for intruder ... I think this might have been the staging that was substituted for the gap-top, longjohns and size-12's?


JonBenet was not ritually staged there was too much clutter left behind for it to be a ritual. if you consider the violence inflicted upon JonBenet e.g. the ligature, the untidy staging, then talk of some kind of compensating ritual seems inconsistent. Maybe in wrapping her in the blanket thay had intended to dump her outdoors but somehow they never got there?

.
 
For years I have thought the Ramsey's were probably involved, and there are facts and evidence which still put them under the umbrella of suspicion.

But there are new facts which can't be denied. The new DNA caused the DA to (prematurely and wrongly IMO) clear John and Burke Ramsey, and the Boulder PD partially but not completely backed them up. I go with the evidence, and that was a significant factor causing me to change my view. The new DNA evidence is IMO important.

I do think it was WRONG of the DA to "clear" Burke and John Ramsey, however, as we do NOT know for certain the source of the new DNA. It is still possible it came from a playmate of JonBenet's, a lab tech or some other source.

At the time of the murder and for years after, the tabloid media convicted the Ramsey's in the press, often with lies and rumors. Most of the mainstream media followed suit. A Gallup Poll showed of the American's who had an opinion, 88% thought the one or more family members were involved. America found the Ramsey's guilty of being rich, of hiring lawyers right after their daughter's death, of not responding to a murder the way they thougth they would, of evading questions and most of all of over-sexualizing their daughter at young age through paegents. Combine that with a lot of real evidence casting suspicion on them, and most of the public decided they probably did it. There was indeed one track of evidence pointing to someone inside the house, or close to the family, but there was a rush to judgement IMO, because there was also another track of evidence pointing to a possible intruder.

Many parents kill their children. Sometimes they are parents with no prior history of anything to suggest they could do that. Often they are parents with prior criminal histories, prior abuse or neglect of children, drug or alcohol issues, with evidence they viewed their children as a ball and chain preventing them from enjoying life, i.e., perhaps Susan Smith and Casey Anthony.

But here we have well established parents with no criminal record, who seemingly loved their daughter, parents with a lot to lose, no history of drug or alcohol abuse, no record of child abuse or sex abuse, no indication John was a pedophile, no child *advertiser censored* found on computers, and not one witness who could say they ever saw John or Patsy abuse JonBenet, hit JonBenet, spank her or even yell at her.

Contrast that with the hard evidence pointing to an intruder like male DNA on three spots on two items of clothing, unexplained palm print on the ransom note, unexplained boot print in the basement, unexplained hair and fibers on the body, a suitcase under the window, etc., etc. The sheer horrible brutality of a skull shattered by a blow and a strangulation.

Add to that the interesting MO matches, incredible multiple word and phrase matches and other factors of interest regarding Brian David Mitchell and Wanda Barzee, and for me that justifies my personal focus now on BDM and WB as suspects. To try to include or exclude them. But I don't rule anyone out.

The Boulder PD quickly responded to me and they seemed very interested. But I have learned that all you can do is try to make a contact with law enforcement, ask if they want the information, evidence and research you have, and send it to them if they do. You have little ability to affect the speed at which they do things, and most of the things they do they cannot even tell you about. You can send them follow up info, ask questions, get the newspapers and other media involved, and a few other things to try to speed it along. But ultimately they operate at their own speed. They do have new cases all the time, so money and resources for cold case like Zodiac or JonBenet are limited.

A reporter from a major Colorado newspaper is also interested and indicated he would follow up to see what he can find out about efforts to include or exclude BDM/WB as suspects. Since he is on the ground in Colorado, I hope that time permitting he may be able to uncover new evidence on whether or not BDM/WB were ever seen at Boulder area homeless shelters or churches that offer aid to the down and out.

I can't keep the stories straight as to where they went after leaving Idaho, and neither can Barzee. And Mitchell ain't talking. Barzee seems to have said they went to the Mormon site in Missouri, but as Doug pointed out, she remembered no details, or even what it was called or where it was. That is suspect.

Given that they were in Idaho, having been asked where they were going, you would expect they would state their intended destination "The Mormon Garden of Eden in Missouri". Or, where there immediate destination would be - which leaving Idaho and going west to Missouri would be Wyoming, or going southwest would be Utah.

But even setting aside the McKnight testimony about Colorado, we can say that Barzee and Mitchell spent the majority of their travels, and indeed their life, in the "Mountain West", within 2 or 3 days drive of Colorado. They mostly lived in Utah, which is a one day drive to Boulder, Colorado.

If JonBenet was killed by a stranger, as the new DNA evidence seems to indicate is at least possible, we would look for a suspect pool of pedophiles who did home invasion abduction of blonde children from the beds of their homes in wealthy areas in the Mountain West.

That is a small pool. We can make it smaller to include only those who favored striking on holidays and came equipped with duct tape to put over the mouth of the child and cord to bind her. Mitchell is still in this small pool of men.

Now lets make the pool even smaller by saying the requirements include using 12 or more words in the ransom note, such as the ancient and rare "Hence", "particularly", "deviate", "instructions", "southern", "am", etc.

Brian David Mitchell is still in the pool.

I won't say he is alone in that pool, but God help us if there are more than three or four men in that pool!

All I am asking for is that police do what is needed to check DNA, fingerprints, handwriting and fibers and see if Brian David Mitchell can be excluded as the killer of JonBenet Ramsey or if he merits further investigation.

-----------------------------------------

TESTIMONY OF ELIZABETH SMART

Viti: Thank you. Ms. Smart, I’d like to turn your attention to on or about ... withdrawn. Did he ever give you a reason why he chose the 23rd and 24th to kidnap Olivia?

Smart: He talked about the 24th because it was a holiday and he talked about it just being a holiday. They would be not as quick to respond.

Viti: I’m sorry, who wouldn’t be?

Smart: The public.


[AK = I wonder if Smart misheard him or if BDM meant the "police", or the "public" in general. As Doug Oswell noted, JonBenet was killed on a holiday, Christmas night.]

Viti: What holiday is that, for those who might not know?

Smart: It’s the 24th of July. It’s a Utah holiday, Pioneer Day.

----- ----- -----

BDM and the ransom note writer also use and spell "POSSESION" with 3 "S" 's, though they leave out a different "S".

BDM and the ransom note writer also use "DIFFICULT", and the word "DEVIATE" to indicate a variance from a plan or idea.

BDM/WB also using words like ADEQUATE, POSSESSIONS, PARTICULARLY, INDIVIDUALS, BEING, INSTRUCTIONS, "am", "southern", DEVIATE, WE REPRESENT, and HENCE, just to name some that also appear in the ransom note.

Barzee Mitchell Journal

"FOR my BURIAL" p. 30; "YE STAND" p. 32; "IN ANY WAY" p. 18; "AS WELL AS" p. 35.

JonBenet Ransom Note

"FOR proper BURIAL" ----- "YOU STAND" ---"IN ANY WAY" ------ "AS WELL AS".

DOUG OSWELL noted the following:

I found a website that contains quite a few exhibits from the Mitchell trial, including samples of Mitchell's writing (still cursive, unfortunately) and transcripts of his first police interrogation:

http://breaking.sltrib.com/mitchell/exhibitslinks.php

A few observations:

(1) As AK pointed out earlier, Mitchell's capital M looks amazingly like the one on the Ramsey "ransom" note. I'm looking at the M in the "letter to Julie" at the site above.

(2) The spacing qualities on all the Mitchell samples are similar if not identical to those on the Ransom note, particularly the running-in of descenders to the line below.

(3) In the interrogation, Mitchell says (part 1, page 5): "You have in your possession The Book of Immanuel
David Isaiah."

(4) In part 1, numerous places, he speaks of having Elizabeth Smart "delivered" to him.

(5) In part 1, page 12, he writes: "Not all laws are righteous, and not all laws come from God. And the Constitution of the United States was founded on righteous principles, and when you read The Book of Immanuel David Isaiah, you'll come to understand that this nation has become the most corrupt and evil nation on the face of the earth." I'm thinking of this in reference to the line from the ransom note which reads "We respect your bussiness but not the country that it serves."

(6) When Mitchell strikes out a word he does it with several circular scribbles, as in the ransom note.

(7) He begins the "Book of Immanuel" with the single word "Hearken!" This word, for all intents and purposes, is exactly the same in meaning as "Listen carefully!"

As a general observation based on the interrogation, Mitchell is truly a crafty and cautious criminal. Nothing was going to save him in this case, but he handled himself, I think, only slightly worse than if he had shut up and said nothing at all.

AK WILKS: These are the images referenced by Doug Oswell.

Both the Ransom Note Writer and Brian David Mitchell strike out words by making circular loops.

And both the Ransom Note Writer and Brian David Mitchell do capital "M" 's in a very similar way, with near identical finishing flourishes that come down like a ski slope and become nearly flat.


jonben24.jpg


jonben25.jpg
 
Dear AKWILKS

Please listen to the Websleuths Radio show tomorrow night. 8 PM EST.
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/websleuths/2011/08/15/websleuths-radio

The DNA MEANS NOTIHNG.

Also you said the Boulder PD mostly backed up what Lacy said about clearing John and Patsy. I need a link to something that backs up this claim otherwise I am going to remove it.

Also are you suggesting Brian David Mitchell is a suspect? NO WAY IN HELL. Unless you have something substantial to back that up I'll have to remove it also.

AKWILKS, Websleuths is different than other forums. We don't allow people to come in and post theroies that are off the wall with nothing to back them up.

Let's review; I need from you a link to a main stream media interview where the police say they back up what Mary Lacy said about the Ramseys and something somewhere where someone with authority said BDM is a possible suspect in this case. Otherwise your posts will be removed.

Tricia Griffith
Co-Owner Websleuths.com
 
NOTE: I made some edits in the post you take issue with, I think they address what you raised, while still allowing me to express my point of view.

I thought this was a forum that allowed debate?

Does every post have to point to the Ramsey's?

Boulder Police on the new DNA (emphasis added):

http://www.9news.com/rss/story.aspx?storyid=95421

On Wednesday afternoon, the Boulder Police Chief Mark Beckner issued a statement in reaction to the developments in the JonBenet Ramsey case:

"The discovery of additional matching DNA in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case is important information that raises more questions in the search for JonBenet's killer. The Boulder Police Department concurs with the Boulder District Attorney's Office that this is a significant finding. The police department has continued to look diligently for the source of the foreign DNA, and to date, we have compared DNA samples taken from more than 200 people. Finding the source of the DNA is key to helping us determine who killed JonBenet. We remain committed to bringing JonBenet's killer to justice. That is, and always will be, our goal.

---------------------

I have seen dozens of different theories here on the JonBenet case, and other unsolved cases, proposing many different suspects. Brian David Mitchell is a pedophile and a convicted kidnapper who entered the large homes and took young blonde girls from their beds. The evidence showing he should be considered a POSSIBLE suspect in the JonBenet case starts at page one of this thread, which has attracted 11,000 views, and good debate among all sides, both RDI and IDI.

The evidence includes MO, psychology, handwriting, geography and other elements. It includes the fact that either Mitchell or his accomplice Wanda Barzee used many words and phrases that appear in the ransom note, such as hence, as well as, you stand, particularly, deviate, southern, am and aboout a dozen others.

I would be very angry if you erased this thread as it complies with all guidelines and represents a huge amount of work by me and others.

It represents a minority view here, that JonBenet may have been killed by an intruder, but I thought this forum encouraged debate and discussion. I was not aware that minority views would be censored. I hope they will not, this is the best known and best regarded true cime site on the internet.

I can't point right now to a police or media source saying Mitchell is an "official" suspect or POI in this case, but that is also true of many of the suspects I have seen mentioned in hundreds of other threads on other unsolved cases. Are you saying the police or mainstream media must first mention that someone is a suspect in a case before posters can present their own research showing someone should be considered a POI in a case? If so then hundreds of threads here do not conform to that.

If Boulder DA issues (in my opinion and your's also I think) a premature "clearance" of the Ramsey's as suspects, does that mean we all must follow and not post evidence showing they may be guilty?

Boulder PD informed me they wanted my information on Mitchell and I do believe he is currently being looked at by the Boulder PD, though I can't say to what degree or what the progress is, of course they cannot tell me. A reporter from a major Colorado newspaper also told me he found my evidence interesting enough that he would follow up and see what else may be found.

Ted Kaczynski was never mentioned by police or the mainstream media as a suspect in the Tylenol Murders case until Doug Oswell and I developed evidence he should be considered a suspect, and I presented it to the FBI, with the result in the headlines in May 2011 that the FBI was now seeking the DNA of Ted Kaczynski in the Tylenol Murders case. I thought the major reason for forums such as this one was so researchers could present and debate evidence, with the goal that in some cases compelling evidence can then be presented to the mainstream media and police to actually solve cases.

This is a great forum and I would hate to see minority views censored, and I think many posters, both IDI, RDI and undecided would agree with that.

If you want, you can lock the thread, but I think it is completely unfair to erase it. It complies with all rules here. Mitchell is a convicted pedophile child kidnapper and rapist. It is reasonable to present and discuss evidence about him pertaining to unsolved child sex murders such as JonBenet.

At the same time, Mitchell is innocent until proven guilty, he has not been charged with killing JonBenet, and he is entitled to fair treatment, in spite of his conviction on a horrible crime. I have presnted evidence showing why he should be considered a suspect in the JonBenet case, in hopes that police can use DNA, fingerprint, handwriting and other evidence to either INCLUDE him as a serious official suspect or just as importantly EXCLUDE him.
 
Dear AKWILKS

Please listen to the Websleuths Radio show tomorrow night. 8 PM EST.
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/websleuths/2011/08/15/websleuths-radio

The DNA MEANS NOTIHNG.

Also you said the Boulder PD mostly backed up what Lacy said about clearing John and Patsy. I need a link to something that backs up this claim otherwise I am going to remove it.

Also are you suggesting Brian David Mitchell is a suspect? NO WAY IN HELL. Unless you have something substantial to back that up I'll have to remove it also.

AKWILKS, Websleuths is different than other forums. We don't allow people to come in and post theroies that are off the wall with nothing to back them up.

Let's review; I need from you a link to a main stream media interview where the police say they back up what Mary Lacy said about the Ramseys and something somewhere where someone with authority said BDM is a possible suspect in this case. Otherwise your posts will be removed.

Tricia Griffith
Co-Owner Websleuths.com


It's pretty obvious no real discussion is wanted here. Please delete me from the membership.
 
Chrishope, please put your request on hold.

She has not made a decision yet.

If she censors my post, I deeply appreciate that you (and I know many others) would resign your membership here.

But I have posted what she asked for, and I hope she makes the right decison.
 
Someone, somewhere, is the killer and, as of this moment, no one is an official suspect. We have to be able to talk about unofficial ones to discuss the case at all. How many people suspect NINE year old Burke? Come one.
Very unlikely and I am fairly sure he isn't an official suspect.

I think BDM is an unusual suggestion. I have to say, it had never occured to me and I have never seen it mentioned anywhere else. After reading this thread, I am intrigued. Not that I necessarily believe it, but it is as valid as other ideas I have seen. Someone killed her and his history is closer than any other known person.
AK,
A lot of things you suggest make some sense to me.
The language of the ransom,

I don't think it is farfetched that someone gave JonBenet food and a toy to keep her calm. BDM had no qualms about leaving Elizabeth's sister in the room as a witness. I think it shows that some kidnappers feel they are above being caught.

As far as the IDI theory, two people, to me, makes just as much sense as one. One to stay upstairs and clean up, pack, lay out the RN whatever. One to take her downstairs. The person downstairs can't wait and kills her.
The second person comes down and she is already dead. They both leave.
Maybe this was their first attempt. I think it is worth looking into any other cases where children were taken from their homes.

I don't think that is anymore unlikely than that her entire family was in on killing her and/or covering it up.

As far as JR searching the basement first, the second time around, it makes sense to me. They had already searched the upper floors earlier, so they start with the places no one had looked yet.

Anyway, I enjoyed reading a thread about a completely new idea. Whether or not BDM is a viable suspect, it shows me that there are suspects that are still completely off the police radar.
 
For years I have thought the Ramsey's were probably involved, and there are facts and evidence which still put them under the umbrella of suspicion.

But there are new facts which can't be denied, though many want to wish them away. The new DNA caused the DA to clear John and Burke Ramsey, and the Boulder PD mostly backed them up. I go with the evidence, and that was a significant factor causing me to change my view.

Incorrect, Lin Wood caused the DA to clear the Ramsey family. A token gesture to avoid litigation. The fact remains, there is much more evidence that points to Ramsey's guilt than to an intruder. In fact, there has never been any evidence of an intruder. As for the DNA - Mary Lacy herself finds it meaningless.

At the time of the murder and for years after, the tabloid media convicted the Ramsey's in the press, often with lies and rumors.

Actually, the police told Boulder residents there was no killer on the loose in the days immediately following the murder. The tabloids convict a lot of people with lies and rumors - it's what they do.

<snip>and not one witness who could say they ever saw John or Patsy abuse JonBenet, hit JonBenet, spank her or even yell at her.
Not true - Linda Hoffman Pugh said in an interview that Patsy used to take JBR into the bathroom, after a bedwetting incident, close the door and proceed to yell at her. Even without her statement, no one knows what goes on behind closed doors, so it matters not that they seemed to be the ideal family to the outside world. John had an affair on his first wife while she was pregnant, his morals don't impress me much.

Contrast that with the hard evidence pointing to an intruder like male DNA on three spots on two items of clothing
Not evidence of an intruder. John's shirt fibers were in her over-sized, staged underwear. I believe this fact trumps meaningless DNA found outside her underwear.

unexplained palm print on the ransom note, unexplained boot print in the basement, unexplained hair and fibers on the body, a suitcase under the window, etc., etc. The sheer horrible brutality of a skull shattered by a blow and a strangulation.

There was NO unexplained palm print on the ransom note. The only prints on the ransom note were Patsy Ramsey's prints.

The hair was Patsy Ramsey's hair.

The boot print belonged to Burke Ramsey.

Nothing in or on the suitcase showed evidence of an intruder.

The blow to her head was brutal, no doubt, but was it done on purpose? Still not evidence of an intruder.

The FBI concluded that the evidence of sexual abuse was meant to mislead investigators and that trauma to JBR's privates was not idicative of someone desiring sexual gratification - no pedophile.

The FBI said the garrote mark on JBR's neck was even, so no struggle while the garroting took place.

<snip>

The Boulder PD quickly responded to me and they seemed very interested. But I have learned that all you can do is try to make a contact with law enforcement, ask if they want the information, evidence and research you have, and send it to them if they do. You have little ability to affect the speed at which they do things, and most of the things they do they cannot even tell you about. You can send them follow up info, ask questions, get the newspapers and other media involved, and a few other things to try to speed it along. But ultimately they operate at their own speed. They do have new cases all the time, so money and resources for cold case like Zodiac or JonBenet are limited.

December 26, 2006, was the first murder in Boulder that year, if I remember correctly. They are not all that busy and have probably already looked into your research - they have the advantage of knowing the facts and true evidence, which should expedite the results even further!

The fact that you say you are an attorney, a filmaker, private investigator and crime writer should, at the very least, get you some face time with the BPD...have you asked for a meeting?


A reporter from a major Colorado newspaper is also interested and indicated he would follow up to see what he can find out about efforts to include or exclude BDM/WB as suspects. Since he is on the ground in Colorado, I hope that time permitting he may be able to uncover new evidence on whether or not BDM/WB were ever seen at Boulder area homeless shelters or churches that offer aid to the down and out.

Now that will buy some time. Boulder is rife with homeless and colorful characters.

My post is not meant to be off topic, it is for clarification purposes only.
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
178
Guests online
1,706
Total visitors
1,884

Forum statistics

Threads
605,997
Messages
18,196,776
Members
233,697
Latest member
jbohacek
Back
Top