Possible Victim: Shannan Gilbert, 24, missing May 2010, found Oak Beach Dec 2011 #3

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I've gone back into this case, listened to the 911 call, thoughts, my own opinion.

If Shannan was having some kind of mental health episode or she was taking drugs to me that makes her vulnerable. I don't understand how someone could drown lying on their back in around an inch of water. She's still listed on the lisk page, I don't think they can say for sure she wasn't murdered. I hope they do go back over the evidence, look at the autopsie results that suggest that she was murdered, look into who she was corresponding with during that day. Shannan believed she was at risk. That's as far as I've gotten really
 
I've gone back into this case, listened to the 911 call, thoughts, my own opinion.

If Shannan was having some kind of mental health episode or she was taking drugs to me that makes her vulnerable. I don't understand how someone could drown lying on their back in around an inch of water. She's still listed on the lisk page, I don't think they can say for sure she wasn't murdered. I hope they do go back over the evidence, look at the autopsie results that suggest that she was murdered, look into who she was corresponding with during that day. Shannan believed she was at risk. That's as far as I've gotten really
Pretty much where I'm at too. She was a known drug user and ran with an obviously shady crowd working as an escort. Not judging her for this - both are verifiable facts and can give us a glimpse into what could've happened to her. On the night of the party at JB's house, several reports - including one noted by True Crime Garage on their podcast covering the case that prior to the 911 call, there was some kind of drug deal or pickup in the parking lot at a nearby CVS that was for either Shanann, JB or both for their party.

A search of CVS' near JB's home show one about eight miles away in West Islip. It's not known if it was Pak and Shanann who got the supplies and brought them or if JB and/or associates did so. Details are very sketchy about this particular item since it happened before all the commotion occurred, but it's not out of the realm of possibility to think that Shanann either took a bad mixture of things or was slipped something that caused her to have the episode.

Initially she sounded very groggy and out of it on the phone - like she didn't realize she had called 911. Her staunch refusal to leave JB's home is very much unlike how most escorts operate. Since they were partaking in an illicit activity, you don't want to draw attention to yourself but she kept doing that and wanted the police there. Unless Dr. Hackett gave her something like he claimed to have later that night, it's very reasonable for me to think that after leaving the Brennan home she took off running through the marsh which is huge so she'd easily get lost sober and either passed out or fell and possibly choked to death on her own vomit.

Beyond that, pure foul play is all I can come up with but I can't concretely connect any possible suspect (LISK, JB, Pak or Dr. Hackett).
 
Pretty much where I'm at too. She was a known drug user and ran with an obviously shady crowd working as an escort. Not judging her for this - both are verifiable facts and can give us a glimpse into what could've happened to her. On the night of the party at JB's house, several reports - including one noted by True Crime Garage on their podcast covering the case that prior to the 911 call, there was some kind of drug deal or pickup in the parking lot at a nearby CVS that was for either Shanann, JB or both for their party.

A search of CVS' near JB's home show one about eight miles away in West Islip. It's not known if it was Pak and Shanann who got the supplies and brought them or if JB and/or associates did so. Details are very sketchy about this particular item since it happened before all the commotion occurred, but it's not out of the realm of possibility to think that Shanann either took a bad mixture of things or was slipped something that caused her to have the episode.

Initially she sounded very groggy and out of it on the phone - like she didn't realize she had called 911. Her staunch refusal to leave JB's home is very much unlike how most escorts operate. Since they were partaking in an illicit activity, you don't want to draw attention to yourself but she kept doing that and wanted the police there. Unless Dr. Hackett gave her something like he claimed to have later that night, it's very reasonable for me to think that after leaving the Brennan home she took off running through the marsh which is huge so she'd easily get lost sober and either passed out or fell and possibly choked to death on her own vomit.

Beyond that, pure foul play is all I can come up with but I can't concretely connect any possible suspect (LISK, JB, Pak or Dr. Hackett).
BBM
 
On another thread I stated my thoughts on Pak and added a thought from the post up above:
MOO
1. While in the house she contacted him several times. (In other words please help, come and get me.)
2. She was upset he was using her real name. It went against how they ran escorting. She knew something was up.
3. Her staunch refusal to leave JB's home is very much unlike how most escorts operate. Since they were partaking in an illicit activity, you don't want to draw attention to yourself but she kept doing that and wanted the police there.
4. Pak never takes the phone to talk to 911, let alone give them the address to where SG was at.
5. If she made her own appointments, like Pak said, why didn't she know the address to where she was at? She didn't know because Pak booked appointments, particularly this one.
6. Brewer fakes he wants her to leave and go home--Pak plays along.
7. They know she's on a 911 call, they play along like they are the good guys.
8. Pak said Brewer and SG left to go get cards, lube and prescription meds. It's all a set up. If they would have found her sooner and tested her hair and body, I'm sure they would have found they drugged her.
9. About a half a dozen times she says asks if "this" was all a set up. She knew what was going on.
10. She knew he was apart of what was happening to her:
SG: You're being sarcastic.
Pak: About what?
SG: About this.. you were part of this all
along.

I could say more.....
 
The more I listen to the shannon gilbert 911 call the more I lean that she was In a druken/drugged state not murdered. I was 50/50 before the call release. 70/30 with the release of the call. Now with the arrest of RH I'm 90/10 that her death was as the police say.

<modsnip - off topic>

Shannon seems back and fourth between a drunk calm mood to hysterical state then back To calm before she ran nout. If she was in real danger inside she would have ran out to her driver. A driver whom she worked with before and had a gun, by his own admission. If brewer was trying to kill her he wouldn't have let her stay on the phone with 911 that long. Nor would he have called pak inside to get her. He went upstairs to defuse the situation so pak could get her outside.

She wasnt whispering like someone sneaking away to make a 911 call
Compare her call to the one that lead to Sean grate's arrest. Listen to this poor women's tone, volume and real fear.

Nor was she screaming frantically or specifically saying what happened or what she saw. She didnt say for example knife, gun, taser, rope, they choked me . Nothing specific.. After she got put through to state police she said "there's somebody after me" 2x. She's asked "where are you " she repeats "there somebody after me asked again "where are you mam".... after a 5 second pause she says again "there's somebody after me".. that doesn't sound like someone who's fully aware of what's going on or in fight or flight mode.

I think brewer originally called her in as entertainment no sex needed, because that's cheaper. Then after some drugs and alcohol tried to push for sex maybe without wanting to pay more. When shannon wasn't about she started calling pak to end the date and maybe brewer said get the <modsnip - profanity>out or ill kill you and it made something snap in her head. I'm not saying he's a good guy I'm sure he's talked down to his fair share of sex workers. He honestly sounds like the just about every middle aged rich divorced long island dad I ever heard. The get off my lawn types instead "get out if my house" , for him. He sounds like he's trying some reverse psychology saying "we will all go outside together" in hopes that shannon agrees. He seems to try stand her up she resists. He offers to get lost by going upstairs. He figures if he's out of the room, she will be less aggravated and pak can calm her down and get her out. Pak tells her let's go and she kept saying no. Then a few mins later she starts asking him to go. Saying, "please get me out of here, mike". "I'm begging you now.... I just want to go home". Pak says "let's go" "let's go home" but she doesn't get up to go. Yes, she didn't know the address but that's not proof that she never knew it. She also didn't give her age when the dispatchers asked her. She knows her age but maybe forgot that also.

If someone was outside why didn't they catch her when she ran out to colleti's? If someone was after her why didn't she stay at the saftey of the colleti's. Even he says to her "wait a minute ,where are going, what are you doing"? Between him, pak, brewer and the 2 dispatchers that's 5 people that seemed confused by Shannon's behavior that night.

I doubt RH has anything to do with it. To me it's absurd to think a 6'5 ogre was roaming around oak Beach, a small private village , in the wee hours and happened to run into Shannon. Not his style.

That leaves the Peter Hackett angle. But his wife and kids were home. And he was disabled. Plus why dump her so close to his house. I cant really explain his call to shannons mother. But I think he's a need who hung out with and worked with a lot of cops. He got the number from the boyfriend who went back the next day to look for her. He made the call to feel important to feel like the cops he looks up to. Even though becoming a doctor is much more impressive.

If Pak took her there to be murdered why would he stick around parked outside for 3 hours and risk be seen by witnesses and the secne? If he was part of some murder ring and shannon "got away" he would have went away or lawyered up. Not go back the next day looking for someone who's now a potential witness, . Why would he grab the phone and tell 911 where they were?

<modsnip - no link to an approved source to statement repeatedly made as fact>

. Driving around a sex worker. Why would he tell the police there address and do 10 years in jail, over what seemed like drunk/high cowoker. he was deposed and answered a lot of questions. He could have plead the 5th all the way through.

If brewer was a killer why call a sex worker with an armed driver? Why not get them alone like RH. If he was a killer why give her your real address? She could have gave it to other people. If he was a killer he would have had her phone right away instead she had it the whole time. People ask well why did he call her from manhattan when theirs plenty of sex workers on long island.

<no link to an approved source to statement made as fact>

As for the missing bone, after 19 months in the elements. Snow, heat, rainstorms, high tides. Hell 3 months before SG body was found we got hit with the remnants of hurricane irene. 400k ppl lost power from wind and rain. The area where SG was found got clobbered during the storm.

This is all my opinion. I think she was having a drug feuled physcosis that lead to her tragic death. The evidence just isn't there to support a murder.
 
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"But for years, the investigation into their deaths stalled, with Burke shutting down work on Gilbert's case by labelling her death accidental, even though she had a wound in her neck consistent with a drill."
 
Shannan Gilbert's revealed that a hole had been drilled in the hyoid bone near her throat, according to lawyer John Ray.


<modsnip - not an approved source>


I am following the rules for posting. There might be that I find out a link is not approved, then I'll not use it again. In the meantime I am providing links. I do not have to provide a police source.
 
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Shannan Gilbert's revealed that a hole had been drilled in the hyoid bone near her throat, according to lawyer John Ray.


<modsnip - not an approved source>


I am following the rules for posting. There might be that I find out a link is not approved, then I'll not use it again. In the meantime I am providing links. I do not have to provide a police source.
The police never said she had a hole drilled in her neck.

world-renowned medical examiner Dr. Michael Baden performed the second autopsy.

"When we looked at the bones, we were able to discern that the very small, significant hyoid bone in the neck, was cracked on one edge," Ray said.

Baden said the evidence was consistent with homicidal strangulation, but insufficient to release an official cause of death.


Zero mention of a drill like hole by the meidcal expert only the lawyer. In my opinion this myth needs to stop. Its actually hindering in a way. That bone is small and surrounded by soft cartilage. It was out in the elements for 19 months. We can't even keep our concrete from cracking in the winter around her. Her body endured 2 winters in the open. Plus there was a massive storm that hit that exact area 3 months before her body was discovered. And there's a small but present red fox population in the area that could have easily found the body.

Also in my opinion John Ray started off seeming genuine. But at this point I feel like he keeps the story alive and speculative to stay in the news and stay relevant. At the end of the day he is just a lawyer doing lawyer things.

Early on the police botched part of rhe investigation for sure. Its unfortunate but name me any major police force that make missing sex workers priority? She didn't sound super concerned or coherent on the 911 call that's what they had to go off.

Even colleti said "wait a min where are you going what are you doing". If she was being chased she would have stayed there not ran from saftey of his front door/garage area bot back to the street where the alleged danger was. She ljust ran off it was the wee hours in the morning colleti didn't hear her screaming or yelling after she ran off. If she was being chased she would have let off screams and yells that he or anyone would have heard that late in a small community.

We thought the gb4 were wrapped in farmers burlap and that they were all told to leave their phones home. We know today it was camo burlap and some of them didn't even own their own phones. Not everything we think we know ends up being true.
 
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Archived article: 12/14/2011
When police started searching the area on a remote island south of Long Island, they inadvertently found 10 dismembered bodies, including eight women, a toddler believed to belong to one of the women, and a male transvestite, leading them to believe a serial killer was on the loose. However, police don’t believe the same person murdered Gilbert.

Two and a half years ago, she appeared in a Hoboken Reporter police beat itemabout having been arrested in Hoboken for prostitution.

According to Tuesday’s Associated Press story, “While police believe a lone serial killer is responsible for the deaths of the 10, [an investigator] reiterated Tuesday that police think Gilbert likely drowned accidentally after fleeing the client’s home for an unclear reason. [He] said the location of the skeleton suggests that Gilbert may have been trying to run through the wetlands to a nearby causeway because it was illuminated by street lights. She was last seen shortly after 5 a.m. on May 1, 2010.”

Police found some of Gilbert’s belongings in the area last week.
*eta: Mari in Lost Girls: …and Don’t you ever call my daughter a prostitute” ❤️
 
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On another thread I stated my thoughts on Pak and added a thought from the post up above:
MOO
1. While in the house she contacted him several times. (In other words please help, come and get me.)
2. She was upset he was using her real name. It went against how they ran escorting. She knew something was up.
3. Her staunch refusal to leave JB's home is very much unlike how most escorts operate. Since they were partaking in an illicit activity, you don't want to draw attention to yourself but she kept doing that and wanted the police there.
4. Pak never takes the phone to talk to 911, let alone give them the address to where SG was at.
5. If she made her own appointments, like Pak said, why didn't she know the address to where she was at? She didn't know because Pak booked appointments, particularly this one.
6. Brewer fakes he wants her to leave and go home--Pak plays along.
7. They know she's on a 911 call, they play along like they are the good guys.
8. Pak said Brewer and SG left to go get cards, lube and prescription meds. It's all a set up. If they would have found her sooner and tested her hair and body, I'm sure they would have found they drugged her.
9. About a half a dozen times she says asks if "this" was all a set up. She knew what was going on.
10. She knew he was apart of what was happening to her:
SG: You're being sarcastic.
Pak: About what?
SG: About this.. you were part of this all
along.

I could say more.....
This is such an excellent write-up—thank you for sharing your thoughts. I never understood why he was using her real name... That stands out to me because, like you said, it goes against the "rules" of escorting. So I can understand why she would immediately feel as if she was "set up" for something.
 
It seems to me, from listening to the long version of her 911 calls that she lost faith in pak while she was in that house.
I'm not sure what could have brought this about.
Had pak drugged her before she entered thus rendering her incapable of performing what she was paid to do?
was it something like that?
There would be no point in self administration of a narcotic prior to engaging in sex work.
She would have known that.
That suggests to me that it wasn't voluntary.

It wouldn't have been hard to chase her and choke her, anybody present that night could have done it easily and effortlessly, she would have been exhausted at that stage.. easy prey.
My instinct to protect her is strong.

I believe she was murdered but whether that was first or second degree remains unknown..

I need to know more about Pak.. what's the best source?
 
Shannan Gilbert, who reportedly worked as an escort, disappeared in the early morning hours of May 1, 2010 after being present at a party in the home of one of Dr. Hackett's neighbors in a gated community in Oak Beach on Jones Beach Island in Suffolk County. The plaintiffs claim that Shannan's belongings were found approximately thirty yards behind Dr. Hackett's house, a half mile from where Shannan's badly decomposed body was found, in the heavily thicketed marsh that lies between Oak Beach and Ocean Parkway, in December of 2011. The wide and protracted search for Shannan Gilbert resulted in the discovery of the remains of at least ten other individuals in the line of marsh and brush that adjoins Gilgo Beach.

Although the action against Dr. Hackett as first brought included causes of action for wrongful death and intentional tort, those claims were dismissed, in a decision and order dated December 10, 2013 (Martin, J.), for having been brought beyond the applicable statutes of limitations. Thereafter, in a decision and order dated December 17, 2017, the court denied Dr. Hackett's subsequent motion for summary judgment dismissing plaintiffs' remaining claims, which are primarily "survival" claims alleging medical malpractice, negligence, gross negligence, breach of fiduciary duty and fraudulent inducement.

The gravamen of all of those claims, as well as those previously dismissed as time barred, is the allegation that prior to her disappearance in the early morning hours of May 1, 2010, Shannan Gilbert came under the control and care of the defendant, a Doctor of Osteopathy licensed to practice medicine in the State of New York.

Plaintiffs claim that Dr. Hackett led Shannan - and later, her mother, Mari Gilbert - to believe that he owned and operated a home for "wayward females" out of his Oak Beach house and that he would render "aid" to her there, including medical treatment; that Shannan in fact came under Dr. Hackett's care and control and was administered medication by him; that Shannan was in such a state of confusion and "mental derangement" at that time that she "was incapable of making any informed decisions and of understanding her own or her surrounding circumstances"; and that Dr. Hackett's treatment of Shannan not only was "coerced," but was rendered "negligently, grossly negligently, recklessly and willfully and in reckless disregard of Shannan Gilbert's life and safety."

Plaintiffs further claim that in addition to the obligations stemming from the physician-patient relationship that they allege existed between Dr. Hackett and Shannan Gilbert, or which were imposed upon him by virtue of the control he exercised over her and the representations he made to her and to her mother, Dr. Hackett also had "a duty of care to protect Shannan Gilbert and keep her safe from harm and to call the police and/or 9-1-1 to protect Shannan Gilbert, which [Dr.] Hackett failed and refused to do."

Plaintiffs claim that as a result of Dr. Hackett's alleged misrepresentations, tortious acts and breaches of trust and duties, Shannan Gilbert "experienced pain, suffering, anguish, agony, knowledge and fear of her imminent death, and her death." In their general allegations (as well as in the specific context of two of their subsequently dismissed causes of action), and perhaps at least partly in anticipation of potential gaps in their proof, plaintiffs also allege that Dr. Hackett "engaged in conduct to conceal and thwart discovery" of his alleged treatment of Shannan Gilbert, including attempting to "thwart" discovery of her body, which, they, claim "frustrated, delayed and blocked" the "determination of her cause of death." Dr. Hackett has denied all of the material allegations of the complaint.
 
Shannan Gilbert, who reportedly worked as an escort, disappeared in the early morning hours of May 1, 2010 after being present at a party in the home of one of Dr. Hackett's neighbors in a gated community in Oak Beach on Jones Beach Island in Suffolk County. The plaintiffs claim that Shannan's belongings were found approximately thirty yards behind Dr. Hackett's house, a half mile from where Shannan's badly decomposed body was found, in the heavily thicketed marsh that lies between Oak Beach and Ocean Parkway, in December of 2011. The wide and protracted search for Shannan Gilbert resulted in the discovery of the remains of at least ten other individuals in the line of marsh and brush that adjoins Gilgo Beach.

Although the action against Dr. Hackett as first brought included causes of action for wrongful death and intentional tort, those claims were dismissed, in a decision and order dated December 10, 2013 (Martin, J.), for having been brought beyond the applicable statutes of limitations. Thereafter, in a decision and order dated December 17, 2017, the court denied Dr. Hackett's subsequent motion for summary judgment dismissing plaintiffs' remaining claims, which are primarily "survival" claims alleging medical malpractice, negligence, gross negligence, breach of fiduciary duty and fraudulent inducement.

The gravamen of all of those claims, as well as those previously dismissed as time barred, is the allegation that prior to her disappearance in the early morning hours of May 1, 2010, Shannan Gilbert came under the control and care of the defendant, a Doctor of Osteopathy licensed to practice medicine in the State of New York.

Plaintiffs claim that Dr. Hackett led Shannan - and later, her mother, Mari Gilbert - to believe that he owned and operated a home for "wayward females" out of his Oak Beach house and that he would render "aid" to her there, including medical treatment; that Shannan in fact came under Dr. Hackett's care and control and was administered medication by him; that Shannan was in such a state of confusion and "mental derangement" at that time that she "was incapable of making any informed decisions and of understanding her own or her surrounding circumstances"; and that Dr. Hackett's treatment of Shannan not only was "coerced," but was rendered "negligently, grossly negligently, recklessly and willfully and in reckless disregard of Shannan Gilbert's life and safety."

Plaintiffs further claim that in addition to the obligations stemming from the physician-patient relationship that they allege existed between Dr. Hackett and Shannan Gilbert, or which were imposed upon him by virtue of the control he exercised over her and the representations he made to her and to her mother, Dr. Hackett also had "a duty of care to protect Shannan Gilbert and keep her safe from harm and to call the police and/or 9-1-1 to protect Shannan Gilbert, which [Dr.] Hackett failed and refused to do."

Plaintiffs claim that as a result of Dr. Hackett's alleged misrepresentations, tortious acts and breaches of trust and duties, Shannan Gilbert "experienced pain, suffering, anguish, agony, knowledge and fear of her imminent death, and her death." In their general allegations (as well as in the specific context of two of their subsequently dismissed causes of action), and perhaps at least partly in anticipation of potential gaps in their proof, plaintiffs also allege that Dr. Hackett "engaged in conduct to conceal and thwart discovery" of his alleged treatment of Shannan Gilbert, including attempting to "thwart" discovery of her body, which, they, claim "frustrated, delayed and blocked" the "determination of her cause of death." Dr. Hackett has denied all of the material allegations of the complaint.
She never stood a chance...
Murder is murder....
 
It seems to me, from listening to the long version of her 911 calls that she lost faith in pak while she was in that house.
I'm not sure what could have brought this about.
Had pak drugged her before she entered thus rendering her incapable of performing what she was paid to do?
was it something like that?
There would be no point in self administration of a narcotic prior to engaging in sex work.
She would have known that.
That suggests to me that it wasn't voluntary.

It wouldn't have been hard to chase her and choke her, anybody present that night could have done it easily and effortlessly, she would have been exhausted at that stage.. easy prey.
My instinct to protect her is strong.

I believe she was murdered but whether that was first or second degree remains unknown..

I need to know more about Pak.. what's the best source?
Agreed! Bam!!
 
I can’t find him being charged with Shannans murder… only Amber Costello, Megan Waterman, and Melissa Barthelemy. That’s according to the bail application for RH. So far nothing concrete linking RH and Shannan.
I am just catching up with all the latest news but I think Shannon could have been a victim of RH.
I mean, I can't throw him out of the mixture of being her murderer.
Someone murdered her.
It was not an accident, IMO

"The Gilberts hired a private pathologist. That autopsy revealed Shannan died of strangulation or asphyxiation, which Shannan's sister claims is consistent with the four other girls found dead at Gilgo.May 17, 2022"

I know this is older article, but like I said, I'm trying to catch up and may be totally off track, but we just don't know. UGH..
 
This is such an excellent write-up—thank you for sharing your thoughts. I never understood why he was using her real name... That stands out to me because, like you said, it goes against the "rules" of escorting. So I can understand why she would immediately feel as if she was "set up" for something.

I think he was using her real name because he was confused by her behavior. I see nothing wrong with it. She "broke character" so he did too. She went from not wanting to go home to saying

"please get me out of here, mike". "I'm begging you now.... I just want to go home"

Then when he said okay "let's go, let's go home" she wouldn't get up. But going home was literally what she just begged him to do seconds before.

I think the "set up" she refrences is brewer originally calling to hang out then later after they did drugs and drank he started pushing for sex. From the sex workers I have spoke they say it's common. A John will pay for one thing and try to get more for free. Brewer though he could get it for free since she had already been there for 3 hours. Shannon was not about it and a little argument started. Brewer, being the rich jerk he is probably started talking reckless telling her to get the out before he kills her, maybe even gets rough with her. Its not uncommon for sex workers to be mistreated. The client's know they are not likely to run to the police over disputes. This triggers her physcosis/mental episode. Brewer even recognizes that he might be the reason she's angry so he tells pak I'm going upstairs you get her out of here. I think he was going for an out of sight out of mind angle to get pak to calm her down and into the car.

In her state she attributed it to a "set up". That pak took her for no sex then the client wanted sex. Maybe she had a traumatic violent event in the past with another client that helped trigger the episode. If there was a real set up by brewer he wouldn't call a girl with a driver or let her use her keep her cell phone 3 hours after being there. If it was a set up by pak it wouldn't have taken 3 hours for everything to go down. He would have dropped her off and lefr or ledt as soon as the beef started. In reality a set up would have happened as soon as she got there, not yours later. Think when they killed Tommy Devito in Goodfellas.

I hear what she's saying but in my opinion she doesn't sound like someone who's in fully aware state or in fight or flight mode. In my opinion She sounded more like that one friend that has to much to drink or gets to high at a party. Getting them up and in a car can be very difficult. They tend to repeat things like take me home. I'm never drinking again. Pak mentions she told him to buy her drugs. Shannon says "I'm never going to enjoy it again" I think that's her "I'm never drinking again" that we all say after a bad night out drinking.

At one point when pak leaves to go talk to brewer the dispatcher asks her age and for the next 2.5 mins shannon doesn't say anything. That doesn't sound like something someone in real imminent danger would do.

In my opinion other sex workers bodies found in the vicinity are a coincidence. What I think many are failing to realize is that wasn't the first time a sex worker has been to oak Beach or gilgo beach or anywhere in that area. Maybe not even the first that night. None of them were killed. Killing Shannon, after she already called the cops and dumping her body in the same area you live is extremely dumb. People who live in oak Beach tend to be on the wealthy side of life. You normally don't get weathly being extremely dumb. I beleive The arrest of RH backs theory even more. None of the gb4 were killed there. None had armed drivers.
 

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