Possibly related cases (GB4, Manorville, Bittrolff victims, & others)

[Theforeigner]

That video is somewhat strange - but maybe I'm missing the connection - did Shannan & Kim know one another? Apologies in advance if this is common knowledge - there are so many threads covering this case...

Did Kim & Shannan have a connection?

The only connection I know of is the fact that the Nov 2006 Atlantic City murdervictim Kim Raffo's x-husband HA is facebook friends with:

Mari Gilbert , Shannon Gilbert's mother (don't know when he became FB friend with MG?)

Lorraine Waterman Ela, Megan Waterman's mother (FB friend with her already back in April 2011)

Melissa Cann, Maureen Brainard-Barnes sister (don't know when he became FB friend with MC?)

But for whatever reason HA is not FB friend with any of Melissa Barthelemy's family members

 

[Theforeigner]

Pardon? Shannan was living in Jersey City, N.J. when she went missing. She traveled to LI and disappeared while there seeing a client. Kim was living in Atlantic City, NJ when she went missing, she was found in Egg Harbor, NJ.

You are, no doubt, right!

However, Shannan Gilbert lived in Northern NJ (Jersey City ) and Kim Raffo lived in Southern NJ (Atlantic City)

 

[Jenny9]

There are likely lots of problems with it :crazy: just mulling over possibilities. However, I respectfully disagree with your first sentence, and would say IMO anyone working for/with/under a pimp is engaged in an oppressive relationship.

That aside, I cannot imagine any pimp being overly thrilled if one of his "girls" wanted a new job. Again, this whole idea may be, and likely is, completely wrong, but I'm okay with that. I figure 1000 bad ideas are worth considering if it ends up with even 1 clue to help resolve this.

or how about wanting to get straight?only thing with that is ac roomate wasnt her pimp,so she wouldnt have to hide getting off herion from him.

 

[meltruth]

Please let me clarify, Maureen, Melissa nor Megan did not do Heroin.. The reason behind Amber not bringing a phone with her is because she did not own one she used her roommates phone and that is the reason why she left it at the house that night she went missing. I believe.

Also, another factor that I do not think we are giving enough thought to is that these women were addicted to heroin (atleast Amber was). Heroin is not known for making its users think better. I have lost friends to this drug (either directly or indirectly) and it morphs your entire logic. A person addicted to this will do anything to get it if they are desperate. These girls may have been street smart but when you are on dope; any smarts are out the window.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Sorry I can't bold on the iPad.....referring to Amber and Megan's last johns as possibly being the same guy. Yes, that was what I was getting at. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

The person that attacked Maureen and/or Melissa could have been posing as a john or out right attacked them after stalking them. Maureen would not have had to call anyone because she was right where the acton is.

For Megan and Amber he could have been posing as a john (or an actual john), to lure them out w/o their phones. Or another person could have stalked them and killed them. I understand that if the john is the killer that his number would likely be in the phone records. It is possible that it is there/him and LE doesn't have enough evidence yet. Or he is a tech wiz and disappeared somehow......I don't know if that is possible or not, as I am not a tech wiz.

Most importantly, I'd like to make the point that all of this is speculation and none of us know what actually happened to Maureen and Melissa between the time they left their last john and the time they were thrown in the bramble at GB.....other than the fact that they were killed. We also don't know exactly what happened to Megan and Amber. We can not say for sure it was a john or was not a john, that is my understanding. These are theories. MOO

P.S. thanks for the link to the article about those 2 cops.

We can make still some valid assumptions. For example that someone without a phone can't call anybody. So, since there is more than one last john involved if you take all four cases, things happened after the last john.
About the phone records. Can be, someone uses an untraceable phone, but the incoming call ist still in the records of the person called. No way to get that entry out without hacking the phone company. The entry only doesn't help in those cases to trace back to the phone from where the call was made.

Peter

 

[Peter Brendt]

Peter you posted that "those two cops who popped up when they went through Megan's phone records."
You got that wrong, it was NOT Megan it was Maureen who's last contact was a NYPD officer!





Could you please provide a link to the above info? because I have never heard anything about that there was found any connection between any police officers and Megan Waterman.
It was through the investigation of Maureen Brainard-Barnes, and the computer she had used, that LE found that a NYPD officer was the last contact of Maureen's.

Here is the info:

http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/201...fficer-last-contact-murder-victim-sources-say

Quote:
"A Connecticut call girl killed by a Long Island serial killer who found her through Craigslist was contacted by an NYPD officer shortly before her death"


Quote:

"Maureen Brainard-Barnes, 25, of Norwich, CT., was last seen at a 46th Street hotel.


When Brainard-Barnes disappeared in 2007, Connecticut detectives came to Manhattan and went through her computer.

What they discovered was that the officer, who lived on Staten Island, was one of the last people to contact her through Craigslist."




As far as I know those NYPD "TWO police officers" was never connected to any of the GB4 victims, but due to that they had a history with offending prostitutes they were looked at.




And the idea that there was no other john that night following that phone call to friends is ALSO pure speculation.

And there is neither one bit of evidence, not even circumstantial that she didn't pull off another trick!





How do you come to that conclution? and could you provide a link if that was ever indicated by the press?



That is pure speculation! Waterman might have left her phone behind because he asked her to and offered her lots of money and tolf her a lie he was a VIP of some sort, or a lie that he was a police officer etc etc.




Again pure speculation!



Do you have a link to the info , or a quote from one of her adds, that she was into femdom?



AGAIN pure speculation! who says that a "John" and/or "SK" can´t change their ways of how and what kind of location they meet up with a prostitute?





How is "clear" that Maureen was NOT lured ??? it's NOT clear, it's you speculating/theorizing.



You are of course entitled to your opinion, I do respect that.

But PLEASE STOP posting as if your theories and speculations are facts, because they are NOT.

And by now, I´m also pretty annoyed that you keep on posting as if you were a proffessional profiler which you are NOT.

I love it ... ready for the beer bet? Of course, we will all die from old age before SCPD gets the guy.

And please note, for once and all: I AM NOT A PROFESSIONAL POSTER NOR DID I EVER PRETEND TO BE ONE. The fact, that I do this longer than you and have maybe seen more doesn't entitle you to spread wrongful rumors about me.

Peter

 

[Peter Brendt]

Regarding the phones, I see only a couple reasonable scenarios for leaving them behind. I do not see how a request to "leave your phone at home so we aren't disturbed" would fly; why couldn't she (any of the ladies) just silence or turn it off?
IMO, IF there was a request to leave the phone behind it would be for the supposed security/privacy of the "john", i.e. him being (or claiming) to be someone who had reason to fear pictures, etc. This could be a cop, politician, "VIP" or simply a married man. Not saying any person was a person of this nature, but that perhaps if that request was made, this was the reason he, the john, gave. But, since we have no info saying the ladies all saw the same client, I am not sure how much sense this makes. Though we do know the GB4 at minimum eventually ended up with the same person, somehow.

So, one other possibility that occurred to me is this: Again, this is IF anyone left their phone behind purposely. Who else could benefit from not being traceable/contactable by phone? The girls themselves- if perhaps they were trying to get away from their pimp/handler/"boyfriend" (I hate using that term for these guys no matter what they claim) and get out of the biz. What if the girls/some of the girls were in contact, by whatever method, with a person who claimed to be able to give them safe haven and help get them out? Perhaps that could explain the secrecy of some of the girls' interactions. They could have handled whatever last business, and then gone to meet this supposed good Samaritan. Leaving a phone behind might give them a bit more of a head-start from the pimp or whoever. If she had the phone, he would be wondering why she wasn't answering or returning calls/texts, and thus may not be alerted to her being missing as quickly.
I don't know. Just thinking aloud. I can see why/how a john would have requested no phone, but not too many reasons why the any of the girls would have agreed to that, even for a big payday.

My problem is, and I admit to that, is, that my experience in ordering prostitutes is limited. So the what I wrote was a first impression of someone, who is sometimes a little bit annoyed about the current cell phone culture where everywhere phones play call jingles at any time and in the most disturbing situations. But privacy concerns of the john would also fit the bill, so ... in that case, that guy has to be a big shot, probably much bigger than Brewer.

Peter

 

[Redbird]

I love it ... ready for the beer bet? Of course, we will all die from old age before SCPD gets the guy.

And please note, for once and all: I AM NOT A PROFESSIONAL POSTER NOR DID I EVER PRETEND TO BE ONE. The fact, that I do this longer than you and have maybe seen more doesn't entitle you to spread wrongful rumors about me.

Peter

You have described yourself as "working" a case. Working for whom? To me this implies you are working for some government organization, some branch of LE, that someone has assigned you to a serial killer case. To me this is misleading. Perhaps you don't mean to give this impression.

 

[Redbird]

With the exception of Maureen Brainard-Barnes, I have read nothing to indicate the other GB4 were not murdered by the john who they arranged a meeting with. It is an interesting idea that they were stalked and grabbed afterward, but IMO that is pure speculation and imagination. And our SK may well have gotten lucky with Maureen, picking her up after she made phone calls trying to get home.

 

[Peter Brendt]

You have described yourself as "working" a case. Working for whom? To me this implies you are working for some government organization, some branch of LE, that someone has assigned you to a serial killer case. To me this is misleading. Perhaps you don't mean to give this impression.

Oh, I work and have worked a lot of cases. Most of them just out of interest in the subject, just for myself. Others to get more insight with the intention to use that insight for some of my fictional SKs in my books. And most of them simply from an interest in human nature.
And honestly, I have already several times explicitly said, I don't work for government agencies, any LE branch or any other kind of organization. You disability to read and understand those repeated rejections of those rumors is not my fault. So, once again, to make also the last person understand:

I AM NOT A PROFESSIONAL POSTER, I DON'T WORK THOSE CASES ON ANYONE'S BEHALF OTHER THAN MY OWN!!!

Redbird, let me know, whether you got the message this time.

Peter

 

[Peter Brendt]

With the exception of Maureen Brainard-Barnes, I have read nothing to indicate the other GB4 were not murdered by the john who they arranged a meeting with. It is an interesting idea that they were stalked and grabbed afterward, but IMO that is pure speculation and imagination. And our SK may well have gotten lucky with Maureen, picking her up after she made phone calls trying to get home.

You see how you contradict yourself? He couldn't get lucky with Maureen because he wouldn't have been on the hunt there in the first place. Since, according to your speculation, he orders his victims by phone without leaving entries in the phone records.
:waitasec: That's impossible. Even if a cell phone is not traceable, the incoming call is in the list on the side that receives the call.
The other stumble stone in this is, he was obsessed with Melissa's phone. That, if the theory of a sexual psychopath would be correct, gave him the extra kick. So getting the next two victims to leave their phones at home (Amber used Schaller's phone) was against his interest. He would have loved to get them with their phones and make some calls more, especially after he got away with the first one's to Melissa's sister. So, either you forget the sexual psychopath or you forget, that the john who ordered Megan and Amber is the same one as the one, who was Melissa's last. But you can't have both because it's a contradiction.

Peter

 

[nugzter]

What if he is a Taxi driver? Lets forget about the phones for a second and pretend that it is just chance not all of the GB4 took phones.
So the SK calles them and says he will send a cab to pick them up. But it is the SK in the cab driving. He uses a gun to gain control and takes them to where ever his place is. Maybe before he get off of his shift, he has the appointment made. Picks them up, takes them to where ever, drops his cab off then heads back later.
I know it is a stretch, but it only a theory I havn't read yet.

 

[meltruth]

You know what I have the same theory as you as well. That what if he was a taxi driver or even a trucker. Make sense on how he can travel from NYC to long island without any one realizing what he is doing. Just thinking out loud but a taxi or a trucker driver would have gps or know their way around both areas very well.

What if he is a Taxi driver? Lets forget about the phones for a second and pretend that it is just chance not all of the GB4 took phones.
So the SK calles them and says he will send a cab to pick them up. But it is the SK in the cab driving. He uses a gun to gain control and takes them to where ever his place is. Maybe before he get off of his shift, he has the appointment made. Picks them up, takes them to where ever, drops his cab off then heads back later.
I know it is a stretch, but it only a theory I havn't read yet.

 

[Peter Brendt]

What if he is a Taxi driver? Lets forget about the phones for a second and pretend that it is just chance not all of the GB4 took phones.
So the SK calles them and says he will send a cab to pick them up. But it is the SK in the cab driving. He uses a gun to gain control and takes them to where ever his place is. Maybe before he get off of his shift, he has the appointment made. Picks them up, takes them to where ever, drops his cab off then heads back later.
I know it is a stretch, but it only a theory I havn't read yet.

A bit risky. Cabs have windows and they are not sound proof. But okay, what if he is willing to take that risk? How does the burlap fit in?

Peter

 

[meltruth]

Not sure my post was just a theory.

A bit risky. Cabs have windows and they are not sound proof. But okay, what if he is willing to take that risk? How does the burlap fit in?

Peter

 

[rotten dingo]

A bit risky. Cabs have windows and they are not sound proof. But okay, what if he is willing to take that risk? How does the burlap fit in?

Peter

I don't think burlap would rule out a cab driver, or anyone else for that matter. As has been discussed before, it is quite easy to obtain and has multiple uses. Heck, I have a roll in my garage right now :what: but not for any nefarious purpose.

But if we were to follow this taxi driver line of thinking, what would that mean, that MBB called a cab or saw one and therefore the cab SK just found her by luck, but posed as a john for the other three? Not dismissing the idea, just making sure I'm following.

 

[Samantha Spade]

I have had black sedan/ limo drivers stop on the street in lower Manhattan and ask if I want a ride (like a taxi service). They have dark tinted windows.

 

[Samantha Spade]

Maybe the sk is a limo driver and tells some of his victims he will have his driver pick them up.
Maybe he offered Maureen a ride that night and he appeared legit and non threatening. many of those drivers work for themselves.

 

[rotten dingo]

I have had black sedan/ limo drivers stop on the street in lower Manhattan and ask if I want a ride (like a taxi service). They have dark tinted windows.

Is that what's called livery (or something similar?) service? Or am I thinking of something totally different? Or invented? lol.

 

[Samantha Spade]

Yes rotten dingo, I believe you are right.
I even had a stretch limo offer me a ride late at night.