Post sentencing discussion and the upcoming appeal

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Conflicting info AGAIN. So is the application going before Masipa or direct to the SCA?

Nathi Mncube ‏@mncube_nathi · 53m53 minutes ago
Now that the papers have been filed, we await the date of the hearing. The application for leave to appeal will be heard by
the same judge.

I like the way the NPA has worded the application.

Although recognising Masipa's position ( Honourable and Ladyship) they have also stated she 'erred' on several occasions.
Straight out they are telling her she was wrong.
They then tell her to make herself available to answer questions from the Supreme Court judges..............oh my!!
Like a naughty little schoolgirl:facepalm:

Well I'm sorry but I have absolutely no sympathy for her or her 2 assessors.
They cocked up big time.

A woman was heard screaming for her life and photo 55 shows the crime scene that morning and they totally ignored it all to go in favour of someone who they said was a bad witness etc etc.
disgraceful judgement..............lets hope the Supreme Court judges have more nous !.
As Nel has said once again............OP's testimony should have been thrown out and disregarded by the court......simple.
 
The appeal papers being lodged caught me on the hop - although I knew they only had 14 days, I've become so accustomed to things taking their time in SA! It's very good news, and the right news as well, I believe. I'm just reading the papers now.

* I couldn't help but notice that over in the Dewani trial, his lawyer seems to have taken up Roux's; 'We will show the court, but I'll return to that later' tactic. The man's started a fashion it seems and I can't understand why judges are allowing them to get away with it. Evidence should be presented, not suggested it will be at some unspecified point, and then conveniently forgotten, in my opinion.

Hi Zwiebel, nice to have you back on board. Even though it was stated that it was 14 days, the NPA came out on Monday and said that wasn't the case. In any event, yesterday, they said they'd done the application and were just "polishing it off". Lots of happy people here tonight.

O/T I haven't been following Dewani live via twitter, just reading articles. I've read where VZ is doing well and that the PT advocate is very weak. Is that correct or a bad opinion on someone's part?
 
Prof. James Grant says the Judge President has a discretion as to whether the appeal will be heard by a full court of the High Court comprising 3 judges or direct to the SCA. The courts need clarity on the issue of dolus eventualis. Courts need to understand it. Given the gravity of the matter - and he's not talking about OP - but refers to Humphreys, Jub Jub and now Pistorius - he expects it needs to go direct to the SCA.

Prof Grant thinks a higher court will find differently.

http://www.702.co.za/listen-live
 
Hi Zwiebel, nice to have you back on board. Even though it was stated that it was 14 days, the NPA came out on Monday and said that wasn't the case. In any event, yesterday, they said they'd done the application and were just "polishing it off". Lots of happy people here tonight.

O/T I haven't been following Dewani live via twitter, just reading articles. I've read where VZ is doing well and that the PT advocate is very weak. Is that correct or a bad opinion on someone's part?

I wasn't going to follow the Dewani trial but have been following the WS tweets by PrimeSuspect who is doing a great job. The PT are up this week and Tombo has revoked much of his testimony and cannot remember a great deal of what he told his lawyers. The DT seem not to interrupt and if it continues like this DS will be found not guilty. There is no way a judge will be able to find against him as the case stands at the moment. Currently a few of us wonder whether Tombo is "throwing" the case - reasons not obvious, of course. We are wildly speculating (well I am lol). Dewani may not have to take the stand but I wish he would as I have no background to the case and I really want to hear what he has to say before I can make any sort of decision about my feelings one way or the other.
 
For the state's appeal of the conviction, the appeal court must be the Supreme Court of Appeal. It is mandated by s315 (1)(a) of the Criminal Procedure Act.
 
The appeal papers being lodged caught me on the hop - although I knew they only had 14 days, I've become so accustomed to things taking their time in SA! It's very good news, and the right news as well, I believe. I'm just reading the papers now.

* I couldn't help but notice that over in the Dewani trial, his lawyer seems to have taken up Roux's; 'We will show the court, but I'll return to that later' tactic. The man's started a fashion it seems and I can't understand why judges are allowing them to get away with it.
Evidence should be presented, not suggested it will be at some unspecified point, and then conveniently forgotten, in my opinion.
BIB - I think it's a deliberate tactic to put the suggestion right there in the judge's mind. It almost seems irrelevant that the point is never returned to. The most important thing seems to be to plant the seed. These fake promises of returning to the point 'later' should not be allowed. If there's a reason the issue cannot be discussed at the time, the judge should ask why, and then follow it up when it gets "forgotten". Juries are often instructed to "strike" remarks from the record, but you can't strike them from your memory, and I'm sure prosecutors and defence lawyers sometimes do this on purpose.
 
BIB - if Uncle A didn't know that OP drank, why would he ask for the ban to be lifted? There's no need for a ban to be lifted on something you didn't do in the first place, is there?[/QUOTE]



BBM - I believe it was Roux, not Uncle Arnold, who asked for the ban on alcohol to be lifted.

Imo, the stance taken by DT was that since the killing of RS was not alcohol related then it was unreasonable to place a restriction on drinking.
 
The Perplexing Problem of Proof by Prof James Grant

From April 2014, it discusses how circumstantial evidence should be treated by a court. Very relevant to the Application for leave to appeal certain aspects of the law (points 9, 10 and 11):

9. AND WHEREAS the court dealt with the circumstantial evidence individually and excluded circumstantial evidence relied on by the State as not crucial and even referred to circumstantial evidence as "aspects which do not make sense", without rejecting such evidence

10. AND WHEREAS the court did not discuss, accept or reject the circumstantial evidence rendering the version of the accused impossible.

11. NOW THEREFORE the question should respectfully be posed if the court correctly applied the legal principles pertaining to circumstantial evidence
Well worth a read if you've not seen it before.

http://criminallawza.net/2014/04/08/the-perplexing-problem-of-proof/
 
BBM - I believe it was Roux, not Uncle Arnold, who asked for the ban on alcohol to be lifted.

Imo, the stance taken by DT was that since the killing of RS was not alcohol related then it was unreasonable to place a restriction on drinking.
I believe it was Uncle A who asked for the ban to be lifted. Why would Roux make that decision without any family input? And since OP wasn't tested for alcohol until such times as there would have been none left in his system, no one could be absolutely sure it wasn't alcohol related. As I said before, why ask for a restriction on alcohol to be lifted if the killer supposedly didn't drink alcohol?
 
Manqoba Mchunu @ManqobaMchunu
#OscarPistorius: if successful the state can therefore appeal at the Supreme courts of Appeals in Bloemfontein. #SABCNews

#OscarPistorius: if unsuccessful the state can petition to the Supreme Court of Appeal President to overturn ruling. #SABCNews

#OscarPistorius: after hearing the arguments Masipa will again have to decide whether to grant the state leave to appeal or not.

#OscarPistorius: Masipa will also decide on a date in which the arguments will be heard. #SABCNews

#OscarPistorius Judge Thokozike Masipa is expected to hear the arguments for leave to appeal, as the presiding judge in the trial #SABCNews

https://twitter.com/ManqobaMchunu

Will the Assessor's be involved in this process?
 
Will the Assessor's be involved in this process?

You'd have thought not. The judge is responsible for the sentence (as she clarified when she appeared for sentencing with her Assessors at each side) and the law. The Assessors assist with fact. But I don't know for certain.
 
He didn't shoot the dog?

my view is that anything that op says has to be corroborated.
i have only heard op's version of this story. until there is a version from the dog owner [or anyone else], it remains a story to me.
 
Examples of Roux’s duplicity at the bail hearing:

12:50 Roux says the State omitted premeditated murder in the charge sheet. He says the document states murder.
On page 1 it says "Murder" and on p.2 it says "Murder that is pre-planned or premeditated".

12:53 Roux says the fact that Pistorius and Steenkamp spent the night together is consistent with a loving relationship and is inconsistent with murder.
1) OP had never told Reeva that he loved her.
2) How is spending the night together consistent with a loving relationship. Killers can spend every night with their wife or partner.
3) Roux is also saying they spent the night together and this is inconsistent with murder. The sheer number of women who are either married or in relationships who spend most if not all nights together and are killed by their partners in SA is mind-boggling.

12:55 Roux says the defence demonstrated that every allegation made in the charge sheet against Pistorius does not support the State’s claim that he planned to murder Steenkamp. Roux adds that Pistorius could have killed Steenkamp in the bathroom if he wanted to murder her. The locked toilet door explains why Steenkamps bladder was empty when she died.
Compare this statement to 13:46 where he says Pistorius didn’t know the toilet door was locked.
We only have OP’s testimony that the door was locked. This is not proof.

13:38 Roux continues his closing argument. He says although Pistorius lives in a secure estate it doesn’t exclude the fact that violent crime has happened in such estates before. He quotes an incident where a wealthy CEO was shot in a secure estate in Pretoria as an example that living in a secure estate “doesn’t tip the scale”.
The fact is that only 11 crime incidents were reported in OP’s estate over a period of 3 years. Of those, one was the killing of Reeva and another OP’s so-called “stolen” watch. Of the remaining 9, the others were cases of fraud and theft and a house robbery on 24 October 2011. There were no other house robberies or burglaries.

13:43 The defence says Nel’s argument doesn’t prove premeditated murder. Roux says Botha conceded that if Pistorius shouted out to an “intruder”, it’s plausible to think Steenkamp could’ve locked herself in the toilet to save herself.
It’s also plausible that the door was unlocked.

13:44 Roux says Pistorius carrying Steenkamp’s body downstairs shows “positive steps” to save her life.
Prof. Saayman said that Reeva “did not take more than a few breaths after suffering her head wound.” No blood was found in her airways, suggesting she only breathed only a few times before dying. This testimony was not contested by the Defence. As he sat with her for "I don't know how long" what were the positive steps - we know he didn't ring for an ambulance immediately but chose to ring a buddy. Or was it putting his fingers down her throat when she was obviously already dead. Dr Stipp said her, “corneas were already drying out which was a sign of her demise“

13:46 Nair asks why a burglar would lock himself in a toilet.
Roux says Pistorius didn’t know the toilet door was locked. Then why did Roux say earlier that it was. (see 12:55 above).

13:48 Roux concedes that there may have been an argument between Pistorius and Steenkamp, but there are no witnesses to confirm it.
Why would he make a concession like this? Obviously he wants to see what evidence comes out at the trial before making any such admission one way or the other.

14:05 Roux moves on to the State’s witness accounts that screaming was heard an hour before the shooting. He hammers the State for using a witness who alleges there was screaming in the house, but who cannot identify the voices.
Roux’ own witnesses, the Nhlegenthwas and Motshuanes - who were next door neighbours on either side of OP’s house - couldn’t identify the voices either.

14:09 Roux responds to the magistrate by drawing doubt over the distance the neighbour’s houses are. He then says the witness statement does not fit in with the applicant’s version of what happened. Roux criticises the investigating officer’s testimony of another witness who says she heard screaming and then gunshots.
How can Roux assume that the application’s version is the truth and not a complete lie/fabrication. Has he never had a client who lied before.

14:26 Roux to Nair: “We appeal to you to find there exists no objective facts to show this is a Schedule 6 offence.” He says there was no motive for the murder. This was an extremely loving relationship. (Pistorius cries as his brother comforts him)
Where was any proof provided that it was a loving relationship. Surely he can’t be referring to the whatsapp messages because
1) OP never said he loved her and . “Boo, xx” etc. mean absolutely nothing.
2) Reeva said that she was scared of him sometimes and how he snaps at her. Other things were also mentioned in these messages which demonstrated things weren’t all peaches and cream.

14:36 Roux says the firearm going off at the restaurant does not prove Pistorius has the propensity to commit crime. He says Pistorius’s row with soccer player march Mark Batchelor wherein he said he would “break” Batchelor’s legs, was merely an expression. “You don’t mean anything by it.”
So a threat is not a threat, just meaningless words? Yet when a murder has been committed and an accused has previously said words to the effect, “I’ll kill you” or any other form of threat, that’s one of the first things that’s raised.

http://www.enca.com/south-africa/day-3-pistorius-bail-hearing

from above:
"
13:48 Roux concedes that there may have been an argument between Pistorius and Steenkamp, but there are no witnesses to confirm it.
Why would he make a concession like this? Obviously he wants to see what evidence comes out at the trial before making any such admission one way or the other.
"
at the bail stage there should be absolutely no reason for a concession like this. totally illogical.
he has one of the two people that would have been involved in the argument as his client.
if there was an argument op could give a categorical yes.
if there wasn't an argument op could give a categorical no.

conceding a 'maybe', leaves only one option, that there was an argument, but the defence are hoping that no-one heard it [at the bail stage].
 
BIB - if Uncle A didn't know that OP drank, why would he ask for the ban to be lifted? There's no need for a ban to be lifted on something you didn't do in the first place, is there?[/QUOTE]



BBM - I believe it was Roux, not Uncle Arnold, who asked for the ban on alcohol to be lifted.

Imo, the stance taken by DT was that since the killing of RS was not alcohol related then it was unreasonable to place a restriction on drinking.

Only according to OP and since he wasn't tested for substances until well past anything showing.... not really something I'd want to hang my hat on, if I wore one.
 
Now that we have the appeal application wording, and assuming the right to appeal is granted, could some legal mind on here (Pandax?) explain under what (remote?) circumstances the SCA would call for a retrial?

The SCA can make any order, including a retrial, as "justice may require", see s 322 (1)(c) of the Criminal Procedure Act.

The Qs of law all relate to the judgment. If the errors didn't affect the evidence heard, then I personally can't see compelling merit in a retrial.

The state's papers do imply however, as I understand them, that the defence accepted by the court was not one the state had fair opportunity to cross-examine as it was denied by OP at that stage of proceedings (paragraph 23).
 
I'm still amazed at how two people were supposedly able to leave a bed looking like only one person had spent any time on it...
View attachment 62730

Or how someone would leave something like this out while claiming to be sooo in love with someone else, heck even if just dating someone you don't leave pics of "ex" gf's on display, it's called respect. Methinks that call to this "ex" as OP was entering the complex had quite a bit to do with what happened later that night.
View attachment 62732

Also, why would anyone keep a cheque like this on their kitchen counter? Weren't the London games months before or was this just a display copy(trophy)?
View attachment 62731

Or how anyone, let alone a judge, could possibly think that shots like this weren't meant to hit someone sitting on the loo....
View attachment 62733

Pics thanks to http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/

very impressed with your references re: the photographic evidence.
i have looked at that bedsheet shot and can't fathom how it even shows one person sleeping.
or how the creasing fits with op's story that reeva must have crawled across the sheet, and that he later crawled across the bed.
 
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