Post sentencing discussion and the upcoming appeal

[soozieqtips]

Unless he appeals - as a minimum he must serve Masipa's sentence no matter the outcome.

Therefore there is no reason to treat him as "unconvicted" as neither side is disputing that sentence as the minimum.

Pandax obviously holds a different view.

~snipped~

BIB - Ah, okay. You were talking about the defence not appealing the CH conviction. I agree on the absurdity of allowing OP bail if he's not going to appeal. How can a convicted killer get bail while he's actually serving a sentence?!

 

[JudgeJudi]

Ok, only because there is a lull in Pistorius news and I had a spare 10 mins.

And yes I have been known to read the occasional Cosmo.

It's Rihanna on the cover, June 2008

View attachment 62915

http://www.atclinic.co.za/publications

Rihanna? Oh yes, a female singer. I listen to golden oldies more often than not. They stand the test of time.

 

[mrjitty]

BBM I think the pics of the bed pretty much shows us that, since OP claims to have actually slept for 4-5 hours on the left side of the bed and that is the only side that looks even remotely disturbed.
Thanks again to lisasalinger's link, http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/10/08/pictures-from-behind-the-doorone-tragic-night/
View attachment 62932

Good grief!

 

[mrjitty]

I have updated 2.1, 2.1.1 and 2.1.3 in Key questions as per my previous post above.

The stark difference in the scenarios is clear:

Gun before gun - the shots that kill Reeva are a rash action at the climax of an escalating argument.

Bat before gun - two deliberate, considered acts of violence directed at Reeva in that Oscar must both fetch and use the bat and then subsequently fetch and use the gun. This is premeditated however you look at it.

I favour the former. There is, of course, a 'Something else before gun' scenario which falls between the above. And Oscar's version.

I have thought further about the GPRS (so called) connections and I believe they resolve the case.

Well done!

But we need those exhibits to be sure!

 

[G.bng]

Sorry....but he is NOT "clogging up jail space". He is serving a prison sentence for killing a woman.

The chances of him being acquitted are somewhere between slim and non existent.

I stand corrected so I have corrected my post to "occupying jail space" instead of "clogging".

In respect of the possibility of an acquittal however slim the chances, and than is for a different debate, the State's appeal has indisputably opened up all variation possibilities for both verdict and sentence. Going up, Murder or Murder DE, maintaining the status quo CH, and going down acquittal on the basis of putative private defence without finding an unreasonable response.

Sentence variation will obviously depend on whether the verdict is varied and to what. Murder and the sentence will rise, acquittal and the sentence will disappear. Maintaining the status quo with CH whether sentence goes lower or higher is imo anyone's guess. Sentences in general don't appear to be very high in SA same as in the UK and if Humphries and Jub Jub are anything to go by with 10 years for gross negligence (that is if the appeal also concludes it was gross negligence) the one for convenience the other for fun against acting in putative private defence as the court found, then I personally don't see much of a rise, if anything a change of sentence type whereby OP has to remain in prison half the term until he becomes eligible for parole. A type which could imo tie him less than the present one whereby even if he is out in 10 months he has 4 years 2 months of house arrest (I cant recall if all day or from 6 to 8 in the morning) and community service controlling him for the whole period, which afaics isn't the case with simple parole which leaves a person free to do what they like so long as they keep out of trouble. All just imho

 

[mrjitty]

How can an acquittal occur?

The state cannot reopen the factual findings and the defence is not challenging the conviction.

So surely that matter is not at issue?

I guess it is possible that the Court might change the sentence down, but again - wouldn't the defence have to actually apply for this?

Maybe Pandax knows.

Back home, the acquittal would have to be sought based on specific grounds in appeal papers - so that the prosecution has the opportunity to prepare its arguments.

 

[G.bng]

My question was addressed to Pandax, who has already replied, but thank you for giving your own reasons why you would let him out.

Thanks for your thanks however I wasn't opining on why "I"personally would let him out on bail merely opining why a judge might do so. Wrongly or rightly I took your "you" to refer to the judge, i.e., "If you were the judge why would "you" let him out on bail", and it occurred to me as a possible reason why a judge, any judge not just Masipa, might let him out on bail. Even Sion Jenkins convicted of the brutal murder of his teenage step-daughter with a tent peg (hardly the same as putative private defence with negligence) was allowed out on bail while awaiting a retrial so it is not unheard of even here in the UK.

 

[JudgeJudi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m8m9R3D31M

His PR machine made him untouchable - only one sentence in this interesting video.

That was great link and serves to remind us, as if we needed reminding, that OP is such a precious and special person. I've transcribed most of it.

“South Africa media has always adored Pistorius, some would say even protected him by minimizing his problems. ‘He was one of the biggest stories at the Olympic Games’. Graham Joffe is one of the few South African sports journalists who’s been critical of Oscar Pistorius. He says the PR machine behind the so-called Blade Runner has all but made him untouchable”.

GJ said, “On record there really isn’t a problem. That’s the thing. So many incidents that have happened, and they’ve been well documented, things that have happened over the last 5 or 6 years with OP and these kind of cases have disappeared”. “Take the 2009 boating accident. OP himself says he was nearly killed when the speedboat he was driving hit a submerged object. It happened February 21st. He had to be airlifted and underwent facial reconstruction surgery, yet at the time doctors downplayed the injuries as minor. Three days later local news reported police found alcohol bottles inside the submerged boat. A police spokesperson was quoted, ‘We are investigating the possibility that the consumption of alcohol had played a role in the boating accident’. But the very next day there was an about face. The same police spokesperson said that she was misquoted and said that police could not even confirm that OP was even the driver. OP’s manager [Peet van Zyl] even condemned the report saying, “That’s the problem with South African media. They don’t get their [facts] straight and they love to speculated”. Police eventually dropped their negligent driving charge against OP”.

Joffe said that when he heard the news of Reeva’s shooting, he almost knew it was coming. He said it shocked him but didn’t surprise him mainly because of what’s transpired over the last few years. He saw something developing, and he didn’t even know about some of the things – guns, arms and ammunition.

Even the terms of his release had changed once he was out on bail. “He was supposed to visit the police twice a week, but now they visit him here, and only occasionally”.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m8m9R3D31M

 

[G.bng]

What a truly fascinating observation. I think I'll go back in time if you know what I mean.

Wow... I didn't know OP had a Spanish cousin who lives in Madrid!

 

[pandax81]

OK - maybe bad choice of words from me.

At this point in time OP is guilty of at least CH

The state seeks conviction on a more serious charge which supercedes that.

But that conviction for CH is not challenged (so far) by the defence and so at least that will stand as a minimum no matter what happens on appeal.

Therefore, the way I interpret the section, bail would not be available unless OP appeals against conviction.

It would be absurd if having been found guilty of CH, and with no appeal against conviction from the defence, and with the state seeking a more serious conviction and extended sentence, the accused was allowed out on bail.

Unless he appeals - as a minimum he must serve Masipa's sentence no matter the outcome.

Therefore there is no reason to treat him as "unconvicted" as neither side is disputing that sentence as the minimum.

Indeed it would be very strange if the very judge who sentenced him to prison, could then release him because he isn't appealing his conviction or sentence?

Pandax obviously holds a different view.

ETA: And of course I understand that view and he may well be right

Please don't speak for me mrjitty. You have a habit of selective reading and misrepresenting my views, and we are back there again.

I was asked by someone: in the case of reservation of Qs of law by Masipa, is it a possibility for Masipa to grant bail without a defence appeal. I answered yes, and quoted the relevant section from the Criminal Procedure Act which allows for this if she sees fit. I said no more and no less than this. I made no comment on whether I think she should see it fit.

You intervened, quoted the section and said you didn't think it would apply as there is no appeal of the conviction.

But, as the section clearly reads, there does not need to be an appeal of the conviction. If there is ANY question of law reserved, then if the judge sees fit she can grant bail. This was the question, and the answer, nothing more, nothing less.

You then go on to reference treating OP as an unconvicted prisoner. This was never mentioned by me or the questioner, ever. We were talking about granting bail. Again, there is a distinction between the two and the section makes it clear.

If you wish to say you think Masipa should not see it fit to grant bail without a defence appeal, then that is fine, I may even agree with you? Just bear in mind this is very different from a claim that the section does not apply without a defence appeal, which is clearly wrong.

 

[Estelle]

Wow... I didn't know OP had a Spanish cousin who lives in Madrid!

I have never heard of this either. I have done a google search and nothing came up. Also I cannot find JudgeJudi's original post. Could you point me to it please?

 

[JudgeJudi]

Otoh, the longer he spends there now the more it will help to reduce any time requirement(time "served") from any appeal decisions. So should it take a year for the appeals to be decided and on the off chance they uphold the judge's conviction and sentence, he will already be walking free on probation without having to go back and finish out the requirement. So unless you think he might actually get the 15yrs and have to serve a full 6th? of it as per the law, then I suppose he might think being "free" until then is better because hey, even crossing the street can be fatal so why pay for something before he has to on the offchance he never will.

Now if I were OP, I'd rather just get it over with so I could start trying to put it all behind me as I move to Mozambique or wherever and continue life with my future plans/gf/offshore funds/etc., especially now that it sounds like he's all settled in.

The 1/6 only relates to sentences up to 5 years. Anything over that and he'd have to serve half before being eligible for parole.

 

[ColonelMustard]

Right now, I'm re-watching Nel's XE of "Are-you a-sound-expert-Dixon". It's even crazier than I remember -- oh, no, we're at the mutton cloth! :floorlaugh:

Simultaneously, I've been doing some past reading and ran across an article from 2 weeks ago that refers to a topic already addressed here: Oscar's first night in prison.
http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2014/10/23/broken-oscar-sobs-himself-to-sleep

Two things:

According to the article...

1. "A prison source said: ''He was torn up. Broken."

Even the prison spokesperson was in on the "Oscar is a Broken man" PR meme. Good grief!


2. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest Redux? NOT!

I have no idea why but ever since I heard OP would be in the "special" hospital wing, somehow I envisioned him in the setting from the 1975 movie classic "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest"

(If you haven't already seen it, I highly recommend it: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073486/)
In the movie, each person has his own room, I think, (locked at night?) and there's a common room where they all gather during the day.

Call me COMPLETELY SHOCKED when I read the following:

>> "His cell, fitted with two separate doors - one a grill, the other solid steel - is about 2m by 3m..."

>> "Other than a little grill bar window next to the cell door, through which to talk, there's no other way of communicating at night. When you talk from your cell you have to scream."

>> Pistorius's routine will include waking at 5.30am, eating breakfast at 7am, lunch at 12pm and having supper at 4pm - all in his cell.

>> "...programmes dictatewhen you exercise, eat, shower, sleep, where you go and when."

>> "Meals, designed by dieticians and run on a 12-day cycle, are cooked en masse for 7,000 inmates."



I had NO idea that where he was being held was actually so "prison-like".

I'm relieved.

Now, Nel, get an appeal, win it, and keep him in there longer, MUCH longer!!

 

[JudgeJudi]

Originally Posted by G.bng View Post 509

Wow... I didn't know OP had a Spanish cousin who lives in Madrid!

I have never heard of this either. I have done a google search and nothing came up. Also I cannot find JudgeJudi's original post. Could you point me to it please?

What's all this about? Following the chain of messages first to last:

Mr Fossil p.17 #417 and 423; Val p.18 #430; Cherwell P.18 #431; Judgejudi p.21 #500.

Where in any of this is mention of a Spanish cousin who lives in Madrid??????

 

[ColonelMustard]

I was looking back at some of Oscar's old tweets and the contrast between his life then and now is striking. I had never heard of Oscar Pistorius until his trial (which I discovered here on WS) and hadn't known just how popular and idolized he was. Once.

Reading about his international travel, television appearances, product advertizing and well-wishing comments from strangers illustrates that he really has gone “from hero to zero.” This was a man who had everything and who, IMO, threw it all away in the blink of an eye – though perhaps in the pulling of a trigger would be more accurate.

A couple of tweets caught my eye. The first is his answer to the question of who watches his dogs when he travels:

https://twitter.com/OscarPistorius/status/279094519234953216

Which is interesting, considering that Stander testified it was he who did that job except for the time Reeva watched the dogs. Frank, where were you that night?

The second tweet is sad to me in that Oscar inspired a fan with his words – a sentiment that he vehemently denied on the stand:

https://twitter.com/OscarPistorius/status/250608933553721346

I knew who OP was and I fell for his pubic image hook, line, and sinker. That's really all I had to go on - me and most of the rest of the world. When I started following the trial I wanted to try to understand more, so I went back and watched every video and video clip I could find.

Perhaps he was a jerk even in his very earliest days running but he came across to me as a humble, awkward, down-to-earth kid who was very charming.

Of course, that's also what they said about Ted Bundy (a US serial killer who volunteered at a rape crisis centre).

Were there any innocent early days for him, do you think?

 

[ColonelMustard]

Disclosure: I AM a Nel FanGirl

That being said, in rewatching his brilliant performance in the trial, I have an image of him with three different chessboards in front of him, all of which he's playing simultaneously - and on the way to winning all of them.

Bobby Fischer, eat your heart out.

[h=3][/h]

 

[G.bng]

I have never heard of this either. I have done a google search and nothing came up. Also I cannot find JudgeJudi's original post. Could you point me to it please?

Sorry but you seem to have been caught up in a series of cryptic comments alluding to me and my playful or sarcastic replies which started with Cherwell who, replying to another poster about OP's cousin Graham Binge, noted:

Is this the cousin called Graham binge? Just wondering.

Since it clearly alluded to me possibly being Graham Binge, I replied playfully:

Really Cherwell! Your imagination in overdrive again.

In a few months been promoted (or in this case methinks downgraded) from "mole" to "cousin" and that's with me hardly posting because of a very painful attack of Pompholyx (Dyshidrotic Eczema) affecting my fingers, especially the tips, which made it too painful to type as well as too much effort more especially since it seemed my posts were not bienvenido anyway... perchance something to do with me not going with the throng most of the time! ; - )

To then some posts later find JJ's reply to Cherwell reiterating the idea I could be Graham Binge:

What a truly fascinating observation. I think I'll go back in time if you know what I mean.

So I again replied playfully, since I am pretty sure OP has no Spanish cousin and even if he did it certainly isn't me:

Wow... I didn't know OP had a Spanish cousin who lives in Madrid!

Which is where you came in with your post.

So, no need to look for OP's Spanish cousin, and no I am not Graham Binge. I am Spanish-English and live in Madrid, Spain. At least that is where my home is and where I live except for periods in the UK where I am at present, aiding a very good friend of many years fight their local authority as well as doing bits I can to help with the support of their two learning disabled adult sons (one severely and one profoundly) who require 24/7 support and were at risk of the local authority removing them into care after my friend ran into serious difficulties, unable to cope, when their spouse, with whom they previously shared the sons' care, upped and left with another leaving my friend to provide the 24/7 care alone and with the local authority refusing to provide or fund care in their home due to costs. Now, thanks to my involvement and that of other advocates and lawyers, and after recourse to the local government ombudsmen and at the doors of taking the local authority to the Court of Protection, the battle is now won with the sons now secure living with a parent they adore, in the home they know and love, and where they always wanted to live and where it has now been officially deemed it is in their best interests to live. That sorted we are now working with the local authority to set up the 24/7 care package that the boys are assessed as needing which once finalised and up and running correctly, without hitches as there are at present, should leave my friend free to get on with their own life without having to sacrifice their sons to be able to do so (my friend would rather die than do this), and to even be able to sometimes come out to spend time in Spain, maybe. And if the local authority is ordered to pay compensation for the years it failed in its statutory Duty of Care towards my friend and their sons, the final battle we are at present immersed in, it will be even better!

 

[ColonelMustard]

Wow... I didn't know OP had a Spanish cousin who lives in Madrid!

G.bing, is it YOU? Hey, upstream you wrote "Bienvenido"

CONFESS!

CONFESS!

I'm JUST kidding (I think?)

Spanish Identity Check Question: Who's Ratoncito Perez? What's his significance in Spain?
(Hint: Only your dentist knows for sure!)

 

[G.bng]

Originally Posted by G.bng View Post 509

Wow... I didn't know OP had a Spanish cousin who lives in Madrid!



What's all this about? Following the chain of messages first to last:

Mr Fossil p.17 #417 and 423; Val p.18 #430; Cherwell P.18 #431; Judgejudi p.21 #500.

Where in any of this is mention of a Spanish cousin who lives in Madrid??????

Was a joke, JJ. See my reply post to Estelle posted before this explaining the whole caboodle in full and explaining why I am not Graham Binge... but you and Cherwell can continue thinking I might be if you like as it gives for a bit more fun ; - )

 

[G.bng]

G.bing, is it YOU? Hey, upstream you wrote "Bienvenido"

CONFESS!

CONFESS!

I'm JUST kidding (I think?)

Spanish Identity Check Question: Who's Ratoncito Perez? What's his significance in Spain?
(Hint: Only your dentist knows for sure!)

Not surprisingly we don't permit fairies to collect kid's teeth in Spain, only mice. It's unhygienic and goes against health and safety!