Post sentencing discussion

[Estelle]

I think to remember one sentence about Barry in the early times after the murder: Reeva said about Barry, she always had considered him as her father. IF I don't remember wrongly, then Barry isn't Reeva's biological father?? - I don't know. Anybody has read this too?

I think you might be thinking of Cecil Myers who was Reeva's Joburg dad.

 

[Mr Fossil]

Something that sticks out for me in your analysis ...

Is it possible that Burger and Johnson heard the "Help,help,help" at the same time as everyone else, but just got the order of their events wrong ? If there had been "Help, help, help" before the shots, I would have expected the Stipps to hear them.

I'm a little suspicious that they called the "helps" mocking and embarrassed. They would need to describe them as such if they thought they came before the shots.

I know your analysis reflects the witness statements. I don't know how you would annotate your analysis to show an alternative version of a witnesses recollection (hope that makes sense ... it's getting late).

This is a good point and very possible. Thank you. I'll get together the exact dates but IIRC Johnson says the trigger for them contacting anyone official about what they heard that night and making notes was after listening to the bail hearing on the radio on 19 Feb and the fact that what was being said didn't match their recollection. They had also already discussed it with friends and seen/heard media reports. This is at least 5 days after the event and their version could well have become confused with what they are hearing in respect of placing the 'helps' in the sequence. I'll check what was discussed at the bail hearing before they contacted anyone.

I'll add details of when witness statements are taken into new comments for each name, and a comment specifically about this next to the Burger / Johnson 'helps'. Also planning to add relevant distances and whether doors/windows open.

On the other hand, I'm not too concerned about the Stipps not hearing any earlier 'helps' (especially if mocking/embarrassed = less loud?) , if Dr Stipp was hanging on the phone to Security (the unanswered call) and Mrs Stipp was perhaps moving in and out of the bedroom, switching balconies, talking with her husband.

ETA: Please see further response to Giles below. #561

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Yes that could have happened. But did Jenna really want a long-term relationship with OP? She had had her chance before and it did not work out. I think Jenna just liked it to be casual but she could have been having fun that night hoping to get Reeva upset.

What's about a second woman had been in OP's home that evening? In the first weeks after the murder one could read just this. Ever heard about???

 

[Estelle]

Pistorius arrived at the SA Sports Awards in November with FHM model Reeva Steenkamp. She was quoted in the City Press newspaper as saying at the event: "We're just friends. I promise I'll tell you if there's anything more... It's just a coincidence that we're sitting at the same table and arrived in the same car".

Taylor first told City Press that Steenkamp was dating Pistorius's friend.

She then claimed Steenkamp had been following her on photo-sharing site Instagram and knew exactly where she was and everything that was happening in her relationship with Pistorius.

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2013/02/14/valentine-tweet-by-oscar-pistorius-girlfriend

Perhaps Reeva was content to be the killer's trophy girlfriend at the beginning and did not really want to become emotionally and sexually involved with him unless there was a future. She might have known through these Instagram photos and messages that OP and ST were still in love with each other and she did not want to be the rebound girlfriend. It was too early to get involved. By 11 Jan, Reeva may have thought the relationship had a chance but by February, she knew too much about his other women and started retreating emotionally by withholding sex as she wanted a commitment to fidelity first.

 

[Estelle]

What's about a second woman had been in OP's home that evening? In the first weeks after the murder one could read just this. Ever heard about???

A second woman in his home the night of the murder? I find that hard to believe.
No I have never heard about another woman being in his home a few weeks after the murder. Please tell me more.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Originally Posted by Sherbert View Post
I presume he meant 'vulnerable'. Maybe, he should spend some of his time inside brushing up on his vocabulary...

'Venomous' might be nearer the mark.

Of course he would blame predictive text, it wouldn't be his fault, oh no.

I don't think, he meant "vulnerable" but venerable for feeling honored, what he anyway deserves in his thinking.
But that is only an explanation from me, who isn't very fit with English.

 

[Estelle]

Originally Posted by Sherbert View Post
I presume he meant 'vulnerable'. Maybe, he should spend some of his time inside brushing up on his vocabulary...



I don't think, he meant "vulnerable" but venerable for feeling honored, what he anyway deserves in his thinking.
But that is only an explanation from me, who isn't very fit with English.

I think he meant "vulnerable" not "venerable". Who would use the word, "venerable" these days in that context.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I think you might be thinking of Cecil Myers who was Reeva's Joburg dad.

Yes, thank you, maybe him.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I agree. I think he meant "vulnerable" too.

???? :thinking:

 

[Estelle]

IF Reeva didn't want to have sex, then TAITOJ (the athlete in the orange jumpsuit) certainly felt attacked in his honor (as a narcissist even more).

A narcissist does not take sexual rejection very well. NPDs think they deserve compliance in every way.

Just read this:

http://books.google.com.au/books?id...v=onepage&q=Refusing a narcissist sex&f=false

 

[Estelle]

???? :thinking:

Sorry just re-read it and have edited my post now.

 

[Estelle]

Here's a really weird reason I hope they appeal.

I used to put on certain section of the trial and watch them over and over and over again while I was doing other things.

Dixon was a hoot and Unbelievable; Wollie and his pork chops and "You can't see me, I'm in the toilet", and Nel saying "your testimony was rejected when you said he slapped himself on the left side of his face when, in fact, he was right-handed"; Oscar, the completely transparent lying weasel trying to get the better of the brilliant Nel; the coup when Nel caught Voerster on GAD and got OP the 30 days at WestK;, and Derman, whom I loathed, who Nel tied up in knots so badly that he became a stuttering mess.

** It was ALSO wonderful to watch because I KNEW OP was "going down."

When Masipa feigned ignorance (of everything), the bottom dropped out of my own particular world, and , since then, I haven't had the heart to watch any of it any more -- AND I MISS IT. It was more entertaining to me than anything else in a very long time. I never got tired of it.

Soooo, if they appeal I'll feel I can go back and watch it all again!!

As Carl would say, "pray for me!"

I have been wondering about whether there will be a retrial and what would happen then. I know nothing about retrials.

Would Roux take it on if there is no money to be paid? It appears that OP could not use legal aid by what JJ said.

Who would take it on and who would pay?

Will they have to use the same witnesses and the same expert witnesses?

Some of those Defence expert witnesses were hopeless.

So what changes could they make?

I guess OP would not get bail this time.

How long would it take to become before a court?

My mind is boggling with curiosity.

I think the chances of a retrial are remote. What do you think?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

"Had a 96% headshot over 300m from 50 shots! Bam!" Pistorius tweeted.

Police have played down reports that Pistorius shot dead Steenkamp thinking she was an intruder, saying they had dealt with domestic incidents at his residence and will oppose bail.

Police said there had "previously been incidents at the home of Mr Oscar Pistorius".



I found this, old news on 15.2.2013. I like to mention it, because of the ominous verdict.

 

[Giles]

Ckra 1000 and Mr Fossil,

Just weighing in on whether Burger and Johnson could be mistaken about when they heard the three cries for help. I don't think so.

IIRC, Burger thought it was a home invasion and that the man had been shot. If they had heard a man shouting for help after this, it would have altered what they thought happened.

 

[Estelle]

I have been 'ruminating' about the verdict of this court ever since it was handed down. From what I have read it seems that the State can only appeal on a point of law. I struggle to understand, as the judges have to read the whole court proceedings, why a judgement on the facts also cannot be taken into account. Something has to change in SA law to give the State the same rights as the Defence. Otherwise it makes a mockery of justice.

You have a judge (or assessors, depending on what one believes) completely disregarding several earwitness's evidence that a female voice was heard screaming and yet allows the claim that "Oscar screams like a woman and I will show you that" (Roux) which, of course, he never did. How on earth could/would Mrs Burgess have known there was a gap between the first and final three shots (also stated in Mangena's evidence) if she did not hear it? There really needs to be a retrial but I doubt that will happen now. I think most of us feel that this court allowed Oscar to get away with murder.

I wonder if de Toit had ever met Oscar before the trial? Would that not have excluded her from being an assessor? Anyone know?

Surely if they found out that Henzen-du-Toit knew OP personally before the trial, that could justify a retrial.

 

[JudgeJudi]

What on earth could have been in all those 7 or so bags? He does not need food. He does not need clothes. Reading matter? Bibles to give out to other inmates?

One bag could have those little wooden rabbits to remind him of BabyShoes.

 

[JudgeJudi]

CORRECTION: In Sept 2012, Sam Taylor and OP went to the Seychelles.

BBM Nov 4 2012: Divaris introduced Reeva to OP at the Kyalami racetrack. That same day was when he had the altercation with Quentin van der Burgh. Later that day, OP phoned Reeva and asked her to accompany him to the Sports Awards.

So this should now read:

Nov 4, 2012 - Enraged by jealousy, confronts and swears at Quinton van der Burgh at Kyalami racetrack about his relationship with Sam Taylor.

Nov 2012: Started sending threatening SMSes to Van der Burgh.

Nov 2012: Marc Batchelor, a friend of van der Burgh got involved and he and OP exchanged threatening SMSes with OP threatening to break his legs.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/oth...gainst-his-tragic-fallibilities-30582424.html

Maybe add this too:

June/July, 2012: Even in the thick of his Olympic preparations in Gemona, Pistorius would indulge himself in forays to an Italian rifle range, tweeting on one visit that he felt "amped to the max". The symmetry with the footage of Pistorius shooting a watermelon with the words, saying afterwards, "It's not as soft as brains, but f--- it's a zombie-stopper," is unsettling.

Thanks a lot Estelle. I've made those alterations and I've also added another two incidents. I still can't find the restaurant. My recollection was he was drunk and bumped into somebody's table. I'll keep looking for another day or two and then repost the amended list. I'm guessing he was still in Italy pre-June but I've still slotted the zombie-stopper in for June/July, 2012. I think Francois Hougaard was with him at the firing range. What do you think? OP was at the Olympics July/Aug and as you say, he went to the Seychelles with Sam in Sept.

It's really interesting to see how his temper was escalating dramatically in 2012. I really do believe if it wasn't Reeva it would have been someone else.

 

[Estelle]

More about OP's legal fees:

A source close to the Pistorius family reportedly told the newspaper that R10m was still owing in legal fees.

So this debt has raised questions about who might defend Pistorius should the state appeal the judge’s controversial decision to acquit him of the murder charge – something that must be decided before November 4.

The source said that since Pistorius had no money or earning power, the legal bill had been passed to his family. However, there is “great unhappiness” about its size, the source added, and Pistorius’s uncle Arnold is understood to be challenging it on the grounds that it is “much higher” than expected.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...storius-spent-1m-defending-murder-charge.html

So this is the reason why we did not see Oldwage in the court. I really didn't think he was necessary anyway.

It will be very interesting to see how this pans out.

What is your prediction?

 

[Estelle]

Thanks a lot Estelle. I've made those alterations and I've also added another two incidents. I still can't find the restaurant. My recollection was he was drunk and bumped into somebody's table. I'll keep looking for another day or two and then repost the amended list. I'm guessing he was still in Italy pre-June but I've still slotted the zombie-stopper in for June/July, 2012. I think Francois Hougaard was with him at the firing range. What do you think? OP was at the Olympics July/Aug and as you say, he went to the Seychelles with Sam in Sept.

It's really interesting to see how his temper was escalating dramatically in 2012. I really do believe if it wasn't Reeva it would have been someone else.

Are you thinking of the theatre event where he was drunk and called the women lesbians? I have never heard of the restaurant incident.

Where was Francois Hougaard with him? Do you mean the zombie stopper event? OP was in Italy without Francois I would think.

 

[Mr Fossil]

Ckra 1000 and Mr Fossil,

Just weighing in on whether Burger and Johnson could be mistaken about when they heard the three cries for help. I don't think so.

IIRC, Burger thought it was a home invasion and that the man had been shot. If they had heard a man shouting for help after this, it would have altered what they thought happened.

In looking for dates for when Burger and Johnson contacted their attorney, made notes and gave statements, I stumbled upon this (oh how I wish I had all the statements and transcripts to hand, it would make this job a lot easier!):

Johnson to Nel, explaining why he was surprised to hear it was a domestic violence incident and not an armed robbery or a house break-in:

"I think the, the fact that we had heard, distinctly heard two different persons: a male and a female lady calling for help and when, when we heard their calls for help the impression I was under that they, maybe the attackers had left the, the house and they were tied up or locked in a room and they were trying to alert the, the neighbours. That, that's just the impression that we were under."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WN3cN_T-GxU#t=3327

I am now more convinced than ever that they do get the sequence confused after seeing and hearing the media, listening to the bail proceedings, discussing it with colleagues and each other. They have subconsciously fitted the sequence of the events to what they subsequently heard but the individual events are recalled correctly and, so too, are their impressions. This clearly says that the 'helps' must have been after the attackers had left, therefore the gunshots came before the 'helps'.

All credit to ckra1000 for challenging the help sequence. 'Crowd sleuthing' continues to bear fruit.

Your thoughts?

ETA: ClaireCh on Digital Spy challenges this because she can't also be screaming for help after been shot.

Maybe Johnson is referring to the fact that he heard a woman screaming help earlier and has subsequently confused things to say they both call later? He's definitely confused something about when the final helps occur. Or maybe there were two sets of helps (the Stipps also hear a man at about the time of the Burger/Johnson helps, could they have heard the mocking/embarrassed helps but not distinguished the actual words?).