Post sentencing discussion

[soozieqtips]

It was a fantastic refutation of the defence case.

I would love it is someone could find it!

Here's one of Nastasya's posts.

Let's get out of the weeds and take a brief moment to look at what one would have to believe to not find OP a cold-blooded killer:

To believe OP's story one must believe 5 witnesses did not hear a woman actually being attacked and murdered, and instead heard OP making the sounds of a woman being attacked and murdered, just seconds after he actually shot and killed a woman.

Has that ever happened in recorded history?

An innocent man reproducing the exact sounds of the crime he is accused of just moments after the alleged crime, and witnesses only hearing the reproduced sounds but not the actual sounds of the crime that happened moments earlier?

Even entertaining that possibility is a non-starter and would require a nonsensical view of the real world.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ad-34-14-05-06-Day-27&p=10520615#post10520615

 

[OZe]

I think you misunderstood. Carl didn't tweet that...it was a tweet TO him.

Thanks for the clarification. Still found the venting therapeutic.

 

[Mr Fossil]

My comments on your timeline are as follows. Intended in constructive mode!

First bangs
1. As far as I can see - only Stipps hear them - and they say there were 3
2. There is a lot of damage in the bathroom which could account for these
3. There is no evidence of 4 strikes on the door

Conclusion. There was no first set of 4 bangs. This was constructed by Pistorious. This commotion happens early and is heard by Stipps as they back on to the bathroom.

Second bangs
1. This is the shooting, as experienced by all witnesses
2. It occurs sometime prior to Stipps call to security
3. There are no bats sounds after this - see evidence of Mike N

I think there is no mystery at all.

The mystery is created by the defence. But once you realise there is no evidence of 4 bats - the mystery is over.

The Stipps here some fighting in the bathroom - IMO the time they provide is the best evidence of what the time actually was - sometime around 3am.

Then sometime around 3.15 the shooting happens.

It cannot be earlier in my view due to the arterial bleed downstairs.

Thanks Mr Jitty, the only way we'll ever get close to cracking this is with a bit of 'crowd sleuthing' and I have a very open mind.

First bangs - I agree. I think they're earlier than Roux and Masipa. What they are remains a mystery but I'm now favouring anything that keeps Reeva out of the toilet so that her screams are easily heard. Warning shots is quite possible IMO but so too are other things as you suggest.

Second bangs - agreed, they must be the gunshots (I don't think I've ever thought otherwise time-wise, just hadn't figured that maybe there are three possible sets of sounds until I suggested it to Giles a little while ago). The time has to be a few seconds after the Johnson call (but I think his time is wrong so that doesn't help), before Dr Stipp's successful call at 03:15:51, allowing him time for a failed 082-something call first, and allow time for Mike N to check the house and hear crying "no, please, please, no". Hence I have it 03:14:43-03:14:59 but a few seconds later may also work. Mike N would not have taken long to go round the house checking doors.

What Mike N hears in itself confirms the shots are before he calls.

I don't think the bat strikes were heard but I do think they come after the shots. It is the most logical explanation (JuneBug67 I hope you're reading this!)

I think we may be almost agreeing?

 

[JudgeJudi]

Respectively snipped. BIB I think that was Nastaya, another very interesting poster like Shane13 who has not been seen for some time.

I have a vague recollection of this post too. Wasn't Roux cross-examining someone and saying they couldn't have heard the sounds they said they did when they heard them. This meant, according to Roux, they heard something that didn't happen, but it did happen exactly as described some minutes later.

I know this sounds nuts and it's hard to put into words but I'm sure it was something along those lines.

C'mon everyone, someone must remember this.

ETA: Oh, thanks soozie, I just saw your earlier post. That was what I recalled.

 

[Mr Fossil]

Witness testimony analysis 2 (a sketch of the revised interpretation of what may have happened) is very much a work in progress and hence constantly being updated so if anyone has copied it, it may be worth checking it out every now and again.

 

[ckra1000]

It's amazing what you can hear from a neighbouring house.

I live on a small holding where the nearest neighbour is approx. 160 metres away across open land. At this distance there are three houses within 30 metres of each other. On a still day, if I stand outside my house, I can clearly hear the neighbours talking and can easily make out if they are male or female. I can not make out the words they are using but I can easily hear which house the voices are coming from.

One neighbour sometimes has a radio on inside his outhouse. It's a stable and he keeps the top half of the door open. He doesn't listen to music but uses a radio station with spoken word. He keeps chickens in this stable and uses the radio to try to stop foxes approaching. Again, I can clearly hear this radio when it is on and can hear the difference between a male or female radio presenter.

It's amazing how far sound can travel when there is no wind and no other sounds, even from a stable with a half closed door.

I have no problem in believing Dr Stipp heard everything clearly. If I can hear a radio inside an outbuilding, I think he could hear a lot more than some people are givning him credit for.

 

[Mr Fossil]

I have a vague recollection of this post too. Wasn't Roux cross-examining someone and saying they couldn't have heard the sounds they said they did when they heard them. This meant, according to Roux, they heard something that didn't happen, but it did happen exactly as described some minutes later.

I know this sounds nuts and it's hard to put into words but I'm sure it was something along those lines.

C'mon everyone, someone must remember this.

Is this it? If so, I don't really understand (or agree) with it (e.g. why step 2?).

 

[Susza]

I liked Juan Martinez in the Jodi Arias trial. He was wonderful.

Thanks, Estelle, interesting. You made me curious so I'll search a video. If you have a special suggestion I'd be grateful.

 

[JudgeJudi]

It's amazing what you can hear from a neighbouring house.

I live on a small holding where the nearest neighbour is approx. 160 metres away across open land. At this distance there are three houses within 30 metres of each other. On a still day, if I stand outside my house, I can clearly hear the neighbours talking and can easily make out if they are male or female. I can not make out the words they are using but I can easily hear which house the voices are coming from.

One neighbour sometimes has a radio on inside his outhouse. It's a stable and he keeps the top half of the door open. He doesn't listen to music but uses a radio station with spoken word. He keeps chickens in this stable and uses the radio to try to stop foxes approaching. Again, I can clearly hear this radio when it is on and can hear the difference between a male or female radio presenter.

It's amazing how far sound can travel when there is no wind and no other sounds, even from a stable with a half closed door.

I have no problem in believing Dr Stipp heard everything clearly. If I can hear a radio inside an outbuilding, I think he could hear a lot more than some people are givning him credit for.

Here's an article which tells you how far each of the ear witnesses lived from OP, a summary of their testimony, questions arising and what the defence says.

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/arti...es-case-against-oscar-pistorius/#.VEo3_SxxnBw

 

[Cherwell]

May I just vent about the things in this trial that seem suspicious to me?
From the start we were warned OP had been over charged and could get off the charge of premeditated murder. Then there were things like phone records that should have shown times called. Why look at the phones themselves? Is SA different? OPs phone records should have shown all the people he called. If it is so difficult to nail down times why would they toss multiple testimony about fighting and screaming so as to make dubious phone records match an uncertified scenario?
Why were obvious signs of an altercation overlooked? A bullet hole in the bedroom door, clothes ripped off, bedclothes tossed around bullet dent in the side of tub, blood all over end of bat, jeans lying outside the murder cubicle (was she trying to flag for help?). How loud is an air gun or a door slam? I would think louder than a few cricket bat pries on a panel door. Why was forensic evidence of them being awake a short time earlier tossed because OP said they were fast asleep. That bruise on her back...I never knew the dead could bruise. Since when do corpses hold their pee? Why didn't prosecution ask for maximum of 15 yrs as Nels said the crime was on the outer limits of culpable homicide?
Maybe it is the way the SA justice system works but all the grandstanding looked like they were putting on a show to make it look like they were being hard on OP. OP looked like he had to pretend he was suffering.
Has anyone told him he can stop acting now? I have never before heard the word of the accused accepted as fact so that any evidence must be twisted to fit or else ignored if it won't.
As for his"career", I hope Canada has no plans to let a felon in here.:tantrum:

Just to clarify - The State did not "overcharge". Pistorius was charged with murder. Whether it was premeditated or not does not form part of the charge, and neither does the identity of the victim. The only alternative charge would have been culpable homicide.

Certainly they tried to show that he knew it was Reeva, and they proved this to my satisfaction (the evidence that the voices of two different people were heard just before the shooting), but unfortunately the judge ignored the evidence.

 

[mrjitty]

Thanks Mr Jitty, the only way we'll ever get close to cracking this is with a bit of 'crowd sleuthing' and I have a very open mind.

First bangs - I agree. I think they're earlier than Roux and Masipa. What they are remains a mystery but I'm now favouring anything that keeps Reeva out of the toilet so that her screams are easily heard. Warning shots is quite possible IMO but so too are other things as you suggest.

Second bangs - agreed, they must be the gunshots (I don't think I've ever thought otherwise time-wise, just hadn't figured that maybe there are three possible sets of sounds until I suggested it to Giles a little while ago). The time has to be a few seconds after the Johnson call (but I think his time is wrong so that doesn't help), before Dr Stipp's successful call at 03:15:51, allowing him time for a failed 082-something call first, and allow time for Mike N to check the house and hear crying "no, please, please, no". Hence I have it 03:14:43-03:14:59 but a few seconds later may also work. Mike N would not have taken long to go round the house checking doors.

What Mike N hears in itself confirms the shots are before he calls.

I don't think the bat strikes were heard but I do think they come after the shots. It is the most logical explanation (JuneBug67 I hope you're reading this!)

I think we may be almost agreeing?

Well it is clear the door is opened up after the shots

I think the question is whether the bat strikes sound like gunshots and clearly the answer is no because Mr & Mrs N are awoken by the shooting and hear no more shots.

In the end the most important thing is that witnesses heard a woman screaming and Pistorius offered no honest/reliable explanation as to how she got in the bathrooom without him knowing

 

[JudgeJudi]

Are we talking about the Strathclyde vote? I voted Yes twice too!

Yep, that's the one.

 

[mrjitty]

Here's one of Nastasya's posts.



http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ad-34-14-05-06-Day-27&p=10520615#post10520615

Thanks

IMO this is the best thing I have ever seen posted about the case.

If only she had sent it to Nel!

 

[JudgeJudi]

Just published in the last half hour.

This article is a big expansion of Prof James Grant's tweets, including a "hurdle" and the possibility of a retrial.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/O...us-judgment-not-well-reasoned-expert-20141024

 

[JudgeJudi]

Thanks

IMO this is the best thing I have ever seen posted about the case.

If only she had sent it to Nel!

As you were a barrister and solicitor, why don't you send it to Prof James Grant who is now assisting Nel, or failing that, to the NPA: "communication@npa.gov.za"

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I did consider this but don't think it would be loud enough to be heard by the Stipps (considering where the door is located off the bedroom down a short passage, within the body of the house and away from the window). My original theory had the argument on either side of the bedroom door but I wonder now if it took place downstairs and this is why only EvdM heard it (the front of OP's house faces her house). Perhaps OP wasn't shouting at this stage but Reeva was? Perhaps the door was open (but not visibly so) because Reeva wanted to leave? I still think Reeva locked the bedroom door when she entered the bedroom and OP barged it open. I don't think this would have proved difficult.

I like the thought of arguement in front of the open main entrance (possibly Reeva's bag already on the first floor, because she only later called the Myers to tell them, she would stay at OP).
I also like the idea of shots out of the window to obfuscate the murder.
Unfortunately we don't know the reach of shots out of the window and we don't know, whether the neighbour plots were screened by police (think NOT).

 

[ckra1000]

Thanks JudgeJudi. I've scanned the article you've tagged, but will give better/more attention later

I have no problem in believing ear witnesses may have got their timings wrong, even getting the order of events wrong is possible. There is a test for cognative impairment where the assessor gives a sequence of events and asks the assessee to recall them in the correct order. This is a lot more difficult than it sounds when you are being assessed.

But what I do have a major problem with is questioning the witnesses on WHAT they heard.

As far as gun shots and bat sounds are concerned, around our small holding there is a wooded area for game shooting. Gun shots can be heard quite regularly. In addition, the local farmers are regularly out knocking wooden fence posts into the ground when mending their field fencing.

Whilst I admit the farmers are using a sledge hammer to hit the wooden fence posts (not a cricket bat), the sound of the guns shots is very very easily distinguished from hitting the wooden posts [and they are much louder] .... even from inside my house with all the doors and windows shut !

Disregarding what the earwitesses heard is just outrageous.

 

[mrjitty]

As you were a barrister and solicitor, why don't you send it to Prof James Grant who is now assisting Nel, or failing that, to the NPA: "communication@npa.gov.za"

Oh I meant it would have been a fantastic piece for his closing.

No use now.

I haven't worked in law since the late 90s - this is more me fixing !

I do think if we could get the phone and cell tower info - Mr Fossil could do some damage.

 

[Mr Fossil]

I like the thought of arguement before the open main entrance (possibly Reeva's bag already on the first floor, because she only later called the Myers to tell them, she would stay at OP).
I also like the idea of shots out of the window to obfuscate the murder.
Unfortunately we don't know the reach of shots out of the window and we don't know, whether the neighbour plots were screened by police (think NOT).

2,300m according to this. I doubt the police searched because they didn't know they were looking for anything.

 

[mrjitty]

May I just vent about the things in this trial that seem suspicious to me?
From the start we were warned OP had been over charged and could get off the charge of premeditated murder. Then there were things like phone records that should have shown times called. Why look at the phones themselves? Is SA different? OPs phone records should have shown all the people he called. If it is so difficult to nail down times why would they toss multiple testimony about fighting and screaming so as to make dubious phone records match an uncertified scenario?
Why were obvious signs of an altercation overlooked? A bullet hole in the bedroom door, clothes ripped off, bedclothes tossed around bullet dent in the side of tub, blood all over end of bat, jeans lying outside the murder cubicle (was she trying to flag for help?). How loud is an air gun or a door slam? I would think louder than a few cricket bat pries on a panel door. Why was forensic evidence of them being awake a short time earlier tossed because OP said they were fast asleep. That bruise on her back...I never knew the dead could bruise. Since when do corpses hold their pee? Why didn't prosecution ask for maximum of 15 yrs as Nels said the crime was on the outer limits of culpable homicide?
Maybe it is the way the SA justice system works but all the grandstanding looked like they were putting on a show to make it look like they were being hard on OP. OP looked like he had to pretend he was suffering.
Has anyone told him he can stop acting now? I have never before heard the word of the accused accepted as fact so that any evidence must be twisted to fit or else ignored if it won't.
As for his"career", I hope Canada has no plans to let a felon in here.:tantrum:

Warned by who?

The defence PR efforts?