Post sentencing discussion and the upcoming appeal

[Deleted member 102539]

Jacaranda Newsteam ‏@JacaNews 2 Min.Vor 2 Minuten

JUST IN: #Dewani has been acquitted after application to have charges dropped was granted in Western Cape High Court

 

[JudgeJudi]

Dewani found not guilty

David Dadic @DavidDadic · 15m 15 minutes ago
When you hear the evidence summed up like this, it's incredible this case even made it to court. Massive fail by NPA. Cheers Shrien.

David Dadic @DavidDadic · 4m 4 minutes ago
Think the flight and added expenses to bring him here cost like 2 million, let alone the immense trial and investigation
costs. Nightmare!

 

[JudgeJudi]

Lisa retweeted

AJ van Dort @vandortaj · 22h 22 hours ago
@MelanieDavisSA @becsplanb Am I the only one who thinks of #OscarTrial when I see this #Coke ad?

 

[44ALLAN]

In her testimony, Carice says that most of the time OP had his finger in Reeva's mouth and even asked her to do the same while he went to get the tape etc. That was 1-2 minutes before Dr Stipp arrived.

Ok I've looked at the evidence again and need these questions answered if possible by someone.
During the evidence given by the Standers ( father and daughter) they both mention OP having his fingers in Reevas mouth but he was leaving at times,which means they weren't 'clamped' at this time ( 2 minutes before Stipp arrived).

IMO gunshots were at 3.17 as witnessed by Stipp/Burger and Johnson.
OP phoned Stander at 3.19 and he said it took him 3 minutes to get there...........arrived at OP's house 3.22 or close to that.
Stipp arrived at 3.27 so by the time he got into the house it was 3.29'ish and OP's fingers were clamped in Reeva's mouth..........this is approx 12 minutes after the head shot that killed her.

Now my main question is.............would Reeva's body be able to clamp down on his fingers 12 minutes after her death?

And a more interesting question is.............if I'm wrong and the first set of bangs were the gunshots (3 to 3.05'ish),which is 25 minutes after the head shot would she still be able to lock onto his fingers after this length of time?

12 minutes or 25 minutes!!
Are either possible?

I'm thinking 12 minutes might be possible and if 25 minutes isn't possible then the first set of bangs couldn't have been the gunshots IMO.
All pure conjecture of course

 

[soozieqtips]

Interesting that Traverso threw out the Dewani case because of 'inconsistencies and lies', while Masipa ignored inconsistencies and lies in OP's version/versions.

 

[mrjitty]

In her testimony, Carice says that most of the time OP had his finger in Reeva's mouth and even asked her to do the same while he went to get the tape etc. That was 1-2 minutes before Dr Stipp arrived.

To me this whole finger in mouth thing is bizarre

Why even do that other than to initially check the airway is clear?

 

[mrjitty]

Dewani found not guilty

David Dadic @DavidDadic · 15m 15 minutes ago
When you hear the evidence summed up like this, it's incredible this case even made it to court. Massive fail by NPA. Cheers Shrien.

David Dadic @DavidDadic · 4m 4 minutes ago
Think the flight and added expenses to bring him here cost like 2 million, let alone the immense trial and investigation
costs. Nightmare!

Not that NPA / SAPS have covered themselves in glory, but i don't necessarily agree with this viewpoint.

What should NPA do when murder co-accused implicate another conspirator?

Obviously the trial will depend on the performance of the witness in the stand and NPA is not allowed to fit up the evidence in advance.

When you see that NPA also has corroborating evidence - the prosecution is warranted.

Surely the issue is not that they bought it - but that they attracted judicial rebuke for screwing up.

Common to these two cases is how SAPS really made a poor job of basic police work.

 

[44ALLAN]

To me this whole finger in mouth thing is bizarre

Why even do that other than to initially check the airway is clear?

He was probably worried she could still say something ?

 

[zwiebel]

Dewani found not guilty

David Dadic @DavidDadic · 15m 15 minutes ago
When you hear the evidence summed up like this, it's incredible this case even made it to court. Massive fail by NPA. Cheers Shrien.

David Dadic @DavidDadic · 4m 4 minutes ago
Think the flight and added expenses to bring him here cost like 2 million, let alone the immense trial and investigation
costs. Nightmare!

Plus, he is now threatening to sue...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...urdering-Anni-face-bid-malicious-damages.html

ETA: Or, I think it's just lawyers saying he could?

 

[mrjitty]

So this is all very well and rubbish from SAPS / NPA - but of course we are now left with the absurdity of how Anni came to be murdered?

Seemingly by magic?

And not only that - the killers decided to admit to a huge conspiracy to murder rather than robbery gone wrong!

 

[Mr Fossil]

"After 49 days in prison, Oscar Pistorius could get bail if the State succeeds in its application for leave to appeal his sentence and conviction, a law expert said on Monday."

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2014/12/08/oscar-pistorius-could-get-bail-if-state-succeeds-in-application-for-leave-to-appeal

“If leave for appeal is granted, he can apply for bail and possibly be released as his legal team prepares its case,” said advocate Mannie Witz of The Bridge law firm.

Pistorius would probably be present in the High Court in Pretoria for the proceedings on Tuesday, said Witz.

 

[Mr Fossil]

"Bid for leave to appeal Oscar sentence"

http://www.iol.co.za/news/bid-for-leave-to-appeal-oscar-sentence-1.1792416#.VIXHGjGsV8E

One of the country’s top criminal advocates, Johann Engelbrecht SC, said the State’s prospects are bleak.

According to him, Judge Masipa cannot be faulted on her verdict and subsequent sentencing.

“Chances that the judge will grant leave to appeal is in my opinion very slim.

“I thinks she interpreted the law correctly and what the State wants to appeal are matters of fact. I cannot see a matter of law anywhere here.”

Engelbrecht is also not convinced that that another court will interfere with the sentence.

Definitely mixed views about likelihood of success. whether OP will attend tomorrow and his bail prospects if the appeal is granted.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Farhan ‏@jozifabio 2 Std.Vor 2 Stunden

#Dewani walks, #Pistorius jealous.

 

[soozieqtips]

Anyone know if the appeal hearing is going to be televised tomorrow?

 

[soozieqtips]

"Bid for leave to appeal Oscar sentence"

http://www.iol.co.za/news/bid-for-leave-to-appeal-oscar-sentence-1.1792416#.VIXHGjGsV8E

Definitely mixed views about likelihood of success. whether OP will attend tomorrow and his bail prospects if the appeal is granted.

I doubt very much Masipa will refuse leave to appeal, unless she's worried another court would come to a different verdict (which I think is highly possible). There are many many legal professionals who claim Masipa has made an error in applying the law, and it's unlikely the state would go to all this trouble if there had been no error.

They will have been advised on all the ins and outs before going ahead, and must have weighed up the pros and cons. I've read that judges grant leaves to appeal when they're confident another court wouldn't disagree with their decision... which is the opposite of what Engelbrecht is saying, “Chances that the judge will grant leave to appeal is in my opinion very slim". Why would he say that when he's so sure Masipa has correctly applied the law?

 

[mrjitty]

"Bid for leave to appeal Oscar sentence"

http://www.iol.co.za/news/bid-for-leave-to-appeal-oscar-sentence-1.1792416#.VIXHGjGsV8E



Definitely mixed views about likelihood of success. whether OP will attend tomorrow and his bail prospects if the appeal is granted.

I wouldn't take the views of a defence barrister too seriously concerning the chances of a state appeal.

Legal experts have been fairly clear that there are arguable errors of law.

Personally I think it is more likely to be a political thing as to whether the SC wants the case and what the mood is amongst those judges.

If there is no appetite for it - then she can squash it.

But she'll look an idiot if she tries to stop it and then they over rule her.

 

[mrjitty]

I doubt very much Masipa will refuse leave to appeal, unless she's worried another court would come to a different verdict (which I think is highly possible). There are many many legal professionals who claim Masipa has made an error in applying the law, and it's unlikely the state would go to all this trouble if there had been no error.

They will have been advised on all the ins and outs before going ahead, and must have weighed up the pros and cons. I've read that judges grant leaves to appeal when they're confident another court wouldn't disagree with their decision... which is the opposite of what Engelbrecht is saying, “Chances that the judge will grant leave to appeal is in my opinion very slim". Why would he say that when he's so sure Masipa has correctly applied the law?

Yes agreed.

In any event - the state's application need only disclose an arguable issue - its for the SC to decide whether there was an error - not Masipa.

This is only a screening procedure to stop time wasting appeals.

The State can always apply direct to the SC - so leave should only be denied if the appeal motion discloses no valid ground.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Interesting that Traverso threw out the Dewani case because of 'inconsistencies and lies', while Masipa ignored inconsistencies and lies in OP's version/versions.

I think, would have SD testified, then Mylady T would have also ignored all the inconsistencies and lies.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Ok I've looked at the evidence again and need these questions answered if possible by someone.
During the evidence given by the Standers ( father and daughter) they both mention OP having his fingers in Reevas mouth but he was leaving at times,which means they weren't 'clamped' at this time ( 2 minutes before Stipp arrived).

IMO gunshots were at 3.17 as witnessed by Stipp/Burger and Johnson.
OP phoned Stander at 3.19 and he said it took him 3 minutes to get there...........arrived at OP's house 3.22 or close to that.
Stipp arrived at 3.27 so by the time he got into the house it was 3.29'ish and OP's fingers were clamped in Reeva's mouth..........this is approx 12 minutes after the head shot that killed her.

Now my main question is.............would Reeva's body be able to clamp down on his fingers 12 minutes after her death?

And a more interesting question is.............if I'm wrong and the first set of bangs were the gunshots (3 to 3.05'ish),which is 25 minutes after the head shot would she still be able to lock onto his fingers after this length of time?

12 minutes or 25 minutes!!
Are either possible?

I'm thinking 12 minutes might be possible and if 25 minutes isn't possible then the first set of bangs couldn't have been the gunshots IMO.
All pure conjecture of course

First: I have no answer, unfortunately.
Could it be, Reeva defended herself against his fingers in her mouth as long as she wasn't dead and then the position of the jaw remained as had been until then?

 

[mrjitty]

Hilariously here is the same top expert with a contradictory view

“On the particular facts of this case (the Pistorius case) putative private self-defence has never been successful in a South African court where the accused fired through a closed door thinking his life was in danger. In this case the door was locked, so the intruder would have had to break down the door to enter the house.
“Subjectively he could have foreseen that his life was in danger, but that is not the test. The test is, if that subjective belief was objectively reasonable and if he could have taken other preventative steps.
“The law is quite clear. If you can escape the imminent danger without putting your life in danger you have to do it. If you kill a person it must be in such severe circumstances that there’s virtually no other way open to protect your life.”