Post sentencing discussion

[soozieqtips]

Part 4.

I lost count of the temporary adjournments the judge allowed for Oscar to recover his composure. He was crying and sobbing, puking into his green bucket, hysterical.

Gerrie slowed down a bit. He did not want to be a bully. He wanted to show the pictures of Reeva again but decided against it, because it would be too much for Oscar, and then the judge would have sympathy for Oscar.

When they went through the injuries and stuff, maybe he did feel sick about what he’d done. Apparently he has an anxiety condition where he vomits when he’s emotional. To look at him now, he’s a pathetic figure. He looks haunted. He’s already been punished in a way. Whatever is in his head is in his head for ever. He will have to live with that.

Gerrie ended his five-day cross-examination with a stark summary of what I believe happened. “You fired four shots through the door whilst knowing that she was standing behind the door … She was locked into the bathroom and you armed yourself with the sole purpose of shooting and killing her.”

“That is not true,” Oscar maintained.

I understood this is how the criminal justice system works: that the accused is presumed innocent until proven guilty and does not have to prove his innocence. I realised all the defence had to do was to argue a version of events that fitted the forensic evidence, while the onus was on the state to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. But what I also saw was that this would be a very hard thing to do when there were only two people present: Reeva, who was dead, and Oscar, who had admitted shooting her, and who now, by his own admission, was trying to save his own life. He knew his entire future was in the balance.

Extracted from Reeva: a Mother’s Story to be published by Sphere on November 6. It is available from the Times Bookshop for £13.49 (RRP £14.99), free p&p, on 0845 2712134; timesbooks.co.uk

 

[jilly]

I'm confused about the Olympics, Paralympics and summer games.
As I understand it the Paralympics are in Rio 2016. I believe that it's these games that Oscar is banned for 5 yrs. Who exactly banned him?

The IOC has not yet ruled. So is it still up in the air, whether Oscar can run in the Paralympics?

The summer games were in London this year. Where are they next?

 

[foxbluff]

I agree completely. Many of us have wondered what the trigger (excuse the pun) for this killing was. I've thought about it a lot. One of the "theories" that kept coming up was that Reeva discovered a message/photo either via his phone or iPad, that he was being unfaithful. As the relationship was a very new one, the fact that they'd been apart for some of this time, the fact that she was "afraid of you sometimes and how you snap at me", I'm still wondering if it was something else other than jealousy that caused the argument. The argument as such was never proven although I'm sure most of us believe it happened. If it wasn't jealousy, what else could she have discovered and confronted him with that was so bad to make him want to kill.

The other thing that really bothers me is that the doctors at Weskoppies found that he wasn't suffering from GAD which in itself is insignificant and is very common in the general population, but neither did they find anything else of significance. I would have been happier if they found something that could have been treated.

Leaving that aside, everyone now knows of his violent temper, controlling nature, recklessness, love of guns, etc etc If he hasn't got a medical condition, that only leaves these other potentially deadly personality issues. How could anyone associated with him in any capacity ever be truly safe. To me he's like a ticking time bomb ready to explode at any moment and nobody knows what could trigger a repeat of that fateful night.

Once he's released back into the general population, there are obviously going to be many people who will goad and torment him. Having now lost virtually everything, surely he's even more dangerous now.

Excellent points.

I, too, would feel so much better about the future if something treatable had been diagnosed.

Did Traumatic Head Injury ever come up in Court? IIRC that boating accident did a lot of damage to his face/head.

 

[Estelle]

[Posted by mrjitty on last thread]

“So, let me get this straight.

There were THREE (3) people (JM + plus 2 assessors), each of whom were understood to have exceptional legal knowledge, understanding, and experience, etc, who took ONE (1) month to come up with an illogical, inarticulate, incomplete, nonsensical verdict , major points of which had little-to-no relevance to current SA law, the evidence, or minimal common sense?”


“Mannie Witz, an advocate … at the Johannesburg Bar, says Mazibuko is ‘fresh out of university’ and comes from an academic background. Other than that, little is known about him.

Henzen-du Toit … is well known as an advocate who has defended murders and rapes, says Witz. She joined the Pretoria Bar in 1998, before leaving for the Rebel Bar in North West in 2003. She became a member of the National Forum of Advocates in 2005 and also presided over trials as an assessor during this period. In 2006, she returned to Pretoria and joined the Legal Aid Board. In 2010, she became a unit manager in the South Gauteng High Court in Johannesburg.

A profile of Henzen-du Toit published by Beeld newspaper earlier this month pointed out that she was an expert in criminal justice. She has an Honours degree in psychology and Master's degree in criminal justice and criminal prosecution. She is working on a doctorate in criminal law, criminal prosecution, evidence and constitutional interpretation”.

The assessors are only there to help the judge decide the verdict. "They are only meant to try on the facts and can overrule the judge, but they can only overrule her on the facts. When it comes to sentencing they play no role whatsoever.

According to Professor Annette van der Merwe, a criminal procedure law expert at the University of Pretoria, if the two assessors were to rule in favour of murder, or the judge and one assessor were to rule so, that verdict would be the accepted one.The same would apply if two of them were to rule in favour of an acquittal”.

Masipa pointed out in her judgment that the verdict was a “unanimous” decision. The male assessor never uttered a word during the trial, however Henzen du Toit whispered to Masipa from time to time. When Masipa delivered her judgment it appeared as though she was reading it for the first time. She paused occasionally and said, “I’ll rephrase that”, and made notes before continuing on. I have never ever seen this done in an Australian court. Someone said later that day that he/she had seen many judgments handed down by Masipa in the past and the wording seemed different to that which she normally used. This gave rise to speculation that Henzen du Toit may have been the person who actually wrote it with input from Masipa rather than the other way around.

More info in thread.

http://www.mediaclubsouthafrica.com/democracy/3759-assessors-can-decide-pistorius-s-fate

I think this is an excellent post. I meant to comment on it earlier. On the last thread, I predicted that Henzen-du-Toit might have been the one to decide on and write the verdict with agreement from Mazibuko as it was so amateurish. It sounded as if Masipa had not even read it before she gave the verdict. It appears that the two Assessors can override the Judge on facts of law but not the sentencing. In fact, I also read that they are not usually present at sentencing. Although, the Judge said it was a unanimous decision, I have wondered since if that was the case as legal experts have said that Masipa gave well-reasoned arguments for the sentence which did not seem to be very much like how the verdict was reasoned. It sounded more professional. It has not really been confirmed yet but it appears that Henzen-du-Toit's brother is married to Natalie du Toit, a paraplegic swimmer in SA. Therefore, she might be biased and did not want to send a disabled icon to prison and she probably knew OP as she mixed in those circles. This was reported on Juror 13's blog.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Excellent points.

I, too, would feel so much better about the future if something treatable had been diagnosed.

Did Traumatic Head Injury ever come up in Court? IIRC that boating accident did a lot of damage to his face/head.

Great point, Fox. Didn't he have something like 170+ stitches? Any injury that requires that many stitches is extremely serious, especially a head injury. A violent impact like that is never good for the brain.

I knew a woman once who, after an auto accident, had permanent sleep problems and could never sleep more than 2 or 3 hours straight at a time.

Would be interesting to compare OP's general demeanor and personality pre-crash and afterwards. I believe we might see a definite demarcation line. Throw in sudden, overwhelming fame and fortune and there you have it.

(Maybe the docs at Westkoppies were loathe to pin any serious diagnosis on him, whether deliberately or subconsciously. They know, like a murder charge, any Dx would follow him the rest of his life. I think perhaps they, like Masipa, were at least somewhat star-struck with their famous patient and once again, in line with the rest of the system, gave him preferential treatment.)

 

[foxbluff]

David Dadic is doing a countdown. From this it appears ...


David Dadic @DavidDadic · 7h 7 hours ago

NOT day 4/14

... that it's working days.

It would be a big help to many of us here if you would do your "bed check" thingy. hint... hint

 

[Cherwell]

I think this is an excellent post. I meant to comment on it earlier. On the last thread, I predicted that Henzen-du-Toit might have been the one to decide on and write the verdict with agreement from Mazibuko as it was so amateurish. It sounded as if Masipa had not even read it before she gave the verdict. It appears that the two Assessors can override the Judge on facts of law but not the sentencing. In fact, I also read that they are not usually present at sentencing. Although, the Judge said it was a unanimous decision, I have wondered since if that was the case as legal experts have said that Masipa gave well-reasoned arguments for the sentence which did not seem to be very much like how the verdict was reasoned. It sounded more professional. It has not really been confirmed yet but it appears that Henzen-du-Toit's brother is married to Nanette du Toit, a paraplegic swimmer in SA. Therefore, she might be biased and did not want to send a disabled icon to prison and she probably knew OP as she mixed in those circles. This was reported on Juror 13's blog.

There was some speculation about a connection a long time ago on these threads, but I don't think it was ever confirmed.
Du Toit is quite a common surname in SA.
(And it is Natalie, not Nanette.)

 

[Lux et Veritas]

I agree completely. Many of us have wondered what the trigger (excuse the pun) for this killing was. I've thought about it a lot. One of the "theories" that kept coming up was that Reeva discovered a message/photo either via his phone or iPad, that he was being unfaithful. As the relationship was a very new one, the fact that they'd been apart for some of this time, the fact that she was "afraid of you sometimes and how you snap at me", I'm still wondering if it was something else other than jealousy that caused the argument. The argument as such was never proven although I'm sure most of us believe it happened. If it wasn't jealousy, what else could she have discovered and confronted him with that was so bad to make him want to kill.

The other thing that really bothers me is that the doctors at Weskoppies found that he wasn't suffering from GAD which in itself is insignificant and is very common in the general population, but neither did they find anything else of significance. I would have been happier if they found something that could have been treated.

Leaving that aside, everyone now knows of his violent temper, controlling nature, recklessness, love of guns, etc etc If he hasn't got a medical condition, that only leaves these other potentially deadly personality issues. How could anyone associated with him in any capacity ever be truly safe. To me he's like a ticking time bomb ready to explode at any moment and nobody knows what could trigger a repeat of that fateful night.

Once he's released back into the general population, there are obviously going to be many people who will goad and torment him. Having now lost virtually everything, surely he's even more dangerous now.

Excellent post, Judi. I will forever believe that the docs had to have seen more in OP than they presented. Either that or OP was really, really slick in playing them.

To find nothing wrong except depression and PTSD (resulting from incident), given his previous history, is astounding. In essence, they declared OP’s mind is normal, his personality fine. This is frightening. His aggressive, murderous behavior with girlfriends and adversaries is not fine, not normal.

They failed him and society. They would have done him a great favor had they told the truth. Then again, perhaps OP is the consummate con man and fooled even the experts?

I agree - he’ll be even more dangerous once he’s out of prison. What more could a bitter man lose and why would he care?

 

[Estelle]

There was some speculation about a connection a long time ago on these threads, but I don't think it was ever confirmed.
Du Toit is quite a common surname in SA.
(And it is Natalie, not Nanette.)

Thanks, Cherwell, I have just corrected it.

 

[Mr Fossil]

I've added a second tab to my new interpretation of the witness testimony to test the time events take, their logical dependencies and constraints, and to confirm whether the suggested sequence is plausible. So far, so good, but it's still a work in progress. Views on event times or concerns are welcome.

 

[soozieqtips]

Excellent points.

I, too, would feel so much better about the future if something treatable had been diagnosed.

Did Traumatic Head Injury ever come up in Court? IIRC that boating accident did a lot of damage to his face/head.

The Millpark principal medical officer, Anchen Laubscher, said of Pistorius: "He is fine. Everything can be repaired *surgically. His brain is functioning normally. He will soon be discharged and taken home to make a full recovery."

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/feb/22/oscar-pistorius-recovers-from-boating-accident

As far as I'm aware, no one has ever said he suffered a personality change after the accident due to his injuries, ie, he didn't turn into a reckless trigger-happy hot head afterwards. Are you looking for another reason why he was bad tempered and aggressive, other than that was just his personality?

 

[foxbluff]

Great point, Fox. Didn't he have something like 170+ stitches? Any injury that requires that many stitches is extremely serious, especially a head injury. A violent impact like that is never good for the brain.
I knew a woman once who, after an auto accident, had permanent sleep problems and could never sleep more than 2 or 3 hours straight at a time.

Would be interesting to compare OP's general demeanor and personality pre-crash and afterwards. I believe we might see a definite demarcation line. Throw in sudden, overwhelming fame and fortune and there you have it.

(Maybe the docs at Westkoppies were loathe to pin any serious diagnosis on him, whether deliberately or subconsciously. They know, like a murder charge, any Dx would follow him the rest of his life. I think perhaps they, like Masipa, were at least somewhat star-struck with their famous patient and once again, in line with the rest of the system, gave him preferential treatment.)

BBM: Wow... nice to get a compliment on a post of mine. Ty.

BBM: I totally agree with how serious head injuries can be. Am I remembering correctly that OP claimed he lost consciousness after the boating accident? (Even some football players and boxers suffer serious brain injury from being hit in the head too many times.) Unfortunately I don't believe there's any cure for such brain damage...

Interesting about the woman's accident and sleep problems. I hadn't been aware that a bad head injury could cause sleep problems... actually I would have expected the opposite. OP appeared to have some problems there, too, not that I put a lot of weight on that as many healthy people suffer from insomnia.

ETA: Ooops... just saw Soozie's post

 

[foxbluff]

The Millpark principal medical officer, Anchen Laubscher, said of Pistorius: "He is fine. Everything can be repaired *surgically. His brain is functioning normally. He will soon be discharged and taken home to make a full recovery."

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/feb/22/oscar-pistorius-recovers-from-boating-accident

As far as I'm aware, no one has ever said he suffered a personality change after the accident due to his injuries, ie, he didn't turn into a reckless trigger-happy hot head afterwards. Are you looking for another reason why he was bad tempered and aggressive, other than that was just his personality?

BBM on Last sentence: Yes, I suppose I was. That's why I asked if Traumatic Brain Injury had ever come up in Court. i.e. if so, was it applicable to OP or not

 

[pandax81]

I've checked the days by consulting the Acts and Court Rules themselves.

It is 14 calendar days for an accused to apply for leave to appeal the sentence or verdict, and for the state to apply for leave to appeal the sentence.

It would be 15 court days (that excludes Sat, Sun and public holidays) for an appeal from the Supreme Court.

I can't find a time restriction on the reservation of a question of law (the method of a state appeal on the verdict) so far.

 

[4MrsB]

Here is LINK to a tweet Carl posted yesterday stating he has finally been released from "hospitalization" after 3 months.

https://mobile.twitter.com/carlpistorius

Why does everything that comes out of the Pistorius family's mouth seem so suspect to me? It seems everything they say can never be taken at face value, it is all "tweaked" in some way to shed them in a somewhat better light. Maybe I'm wrong, and it's just skeptical old me.

Firstly .... I don't believe he's been "hospitalized" for 3 months. He was moved to rehab facility a few weeks or so after car accident. Very different than being hospitalized. (but perhaps I'm just being nit-picky)

2nd...seems so odd that he would even be in rehab facility (sleeping, living there) for 3 months. He is attending the court sentencing on crutches, no wheelchair (last few times, and I'm thinking when he did first attend in wheelchair, it was due to long distance from car to courtroom, made it easier). Usually you're in rehab facility until you can use bathroom by yourself and then you either come in for the rehab strengthening treatments or the therapist comes to you. But to stay 24/7 at rehab for 3 months when you are moving around on crutches (or even wheelchair, but can stand) seems odd. In the US, the insurance companies would never approve coverage for that. With all the luxuries at Uncle Arnold's place, would think he would stay there and just have a nurse to assist as needed and therapist would come to him.

My grandma broke her hip at 100 years old and she was sent home from rehab facility within 10 days. And she needed constant help, but it was up to family to acquire hospital bed if needed, handle bathroom visits, bathing etc. Maybe US insurance companies very different.

Or maybe it's getting just a little too crowded at Uncle's estate.

 

[4MrsB]

Read an article today that said Carl was visiting Oscar in prison today. But I didn't link to it, because article didn't say anything more that exactly that. And showed a picture of Carl hugging Oscar in court...so basically useless article. Not sure how valid the information is.

 

[soozieqtips]

BBM on Last sentence: Yes, I suppose I was. That's why I asked if Traumatic Brain Injury had ever come up in Court. i.e. if so, was it applicable to OP or not

BIB - The boating accident was mentioned in court, but not in relation to any brain injury, as far as I can remember. I'm sure if Roux could have linked any possible brain damage to OP's actions on that fateful night, he would have done.

 

[Mr Fossil]

Read an article today that said Carl was visiting Oscar in prison today. But I didn't link to it, because article didn't say anything more that exactly that. And showed a picture of Carl hugging Oscar in court...so basically useless article. Not sure how valid the information is.

Found this but I guess it's what you found and, as you say, it says nothing more

http://drum.co.za/news/carl-pistorius-is-visiting-oscar-in-prison-for-the-first-time/

 

[Interested Bystander]

BIB - The boating accident was mentioned in court, but not in relation to any brain injury, as far as I can remember. I'm sure if Roux could have linked any possible brain damage to OP's actions on that fateful night, he would have done.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ol...scar-Pistoriuss-rapid-recovery-a-miracle.html

“Medical experts told him he had been extremely lucky to escape brain damage”

 

[soozieqtips]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ol...scar-Pistoriuss-rapid-recovery-a-miracle.html

“Medical experts told him he had been extremely lucky to escape brain damage”

That's right. I was convinced Roux would have linked to it if he could have done. So that leaves us as before, with no specific reason for him killing Reeva. It was probably just an extension of his previous uncontrolled and unaccountable behaviour reaching its inevitable climax. As an aside, I wonder if his new girlfriend will be on the visiting list!