Potential DT Witness Sally Karioth

[oh_gal]

For a fee, she'll be glad to come to Orlando.

Ahem...an undisclosed fee.....

 

[ami]

http://www.wftv.com/video/28114180/index.html

(12:50 mark)
Here HHJP is stating they could do a depo of Ms. Karioth(thank you to WSers who post tags)after JA argued a depo of Ms. Karioth would be a depo of hypothetical(s) because Ms. Karioth will not have met with the defendant nor written a report.

HHJP cites case law that says what the defense wants has to "aid the jury in understanding" then says, "I don't know what time she is talking about" because bereavement generally takes place after a body is found." (12:47 mark) "And someone recognizes the fact that someone is in fact dead so for me to rule on this at this time without a depo being taken or reports being given because if that person is permitted to testify that person has to do every thing that every other expert is required to do."

The part I put in bold, regarding bereavement and HHJP stating that bereavement generally "takes place after a body is found" made me think of the jail tape they have showing Casey's reaction to Caylee's body being found. My understanding is that is one of the few motions the defense won to keep that out of the trial. (I could be wrong please correct me Is HHJP saying that tape might become admissible or the door would be opened for that tape if the defense wants to show bereavement?

The defense would be arguing that bereavement would begin on June 16th 2008 the day Caylee "accidentally drown" because that was the day the defense says "the body was found." And, if the tape of Casey's reaction were to come in how would they explain her having a reaction after she already had seen "the body?"

:websleuther:

The part by HHJP: see this is what I don't understand - the DT is saying that ICA did not acknowledge that her daughter died. She was in "Casey-world" in which her daughter was still alive and with a caring nanny and small friends touring florida.

How could she be grieving if she was not admitting to herself that there had been a death?

At what point in the last 3 years did she admit Caylee was dead and begin grieving? Because her behavior has never changed. She's still laughing and smiling - not grieving - yet apparently admitted to the DT that Caylee drowned, so she's "now" aware that Caylee is dead... where is the change between someone in denial and someone acknowledging the death? Does she "cope" the same exact way for denial and genuine grief?

So shouldn't the expert witness be an expert in denial rather than grief? ICA wasn't grieving at all during the time of the Universal interview and jailhouse tapes because Caylee was still alive in her Casey-world mind, as the DT would have us believe.

[As an aside, I completely agree with all who spoke of hospice care - we recently had need of their services for a dear family member and they completely changed, night & day, the way we dealt with those final days. I don't know what you can say about a group of people who create peace and acceptance where there was a painful void. I have so much gratitude to all involved in these services.]

 

[Phumi]

I obviously missed something back there somewhere. What is the deal with the quotation marks and JB? Can someone explain or point me in the direction of documents, posts, or videos that explain this.

I always miss the good stuff!

During Baez cross examination of Melich regarding KC's written statement, Baez was hammering on the fact that KC wrote she went to TonE's because she felt "at home." there. I'm not sure what Baez was trying to elicit from Melich. He kept asking him why people put things in quotes and why did Casey put only that phrase in quotes on the whole page and how could Melich not notice that since people put things in quotes to show that those words are important. He also asked If Melich didn't wonder why KC didn't feel "at home" at home. Of course, she never said she didn't. She said TonE's was one of the few places she felt "at home." Her parents' home could also be one of those few places. Anyway, then Baez continued by harping about quotes Yuri used in his report. Asking why he used them--wasn't it to show that those words were important? Wasn't it to draw attention to those specific words" Yuri said No. It's because those were her words. I was quoting her. It was just another painful instance of Baez going on and on only to conclude by making absolutely no point at all.

 

[suzihawk]

The part by HHJP: see this is what I don't understand - the DT is saying that ICA did not acknowledge that her daughter died. She was in "Casey-world" in which her daughter was still alive and with a caring nanny and small friends touring florida.

How could she be grieving if she was not admitting to herself that there had been a death?

At what point in the last 3 years did she admit Caylee was dead and begin grieving? Because her behavior has never changed. She's still laughing and smiling - not grieving - yet apparently admitted to the DT that Caylee drowned, so she's "now" aware that Caylee is dead... where is the change between someone in denial and someone acknowledging the death? Does she "cope" the same exact way for denial and genuine grief?

So shouldn't the expert witness be an expert in denial rather than grief? ICA wasn't grieving at all during the time of the Universal interview and jailhouse tapes because Caylee was still alive in her Casey-world mind, as the DT would have us believe.

[As an aside, I completely agree with all who spoke of hospice care - we recently had need of their services for a dear family member and they completely changed, night & day, the way we dealt with those final days. I don't know what you can say about a group of people who create peace and acceptance where there was a painful void. I have so much gratitude to all involved in these services.]

This is my question too, ami. At what point exactly did ICA miraculously snap out of this... trance or whatever you call it? And what caused her to snap out of it? It seems like if there was any truth at all to this it would take years upon years of intense psychological thereapy to get to that point. Personally, I think the whole concept is fabricated malarky.

 

[100%Agave]

During Baez cross examination of Melich regarding KC's written statement, Baez was hammering on the fact that KC wrote she went to TonE's because she felt "at home." there. I'm not sure what Baez was trying to elicit from Melich. He kept asking him why people put things in quotes and why did Casey put only that phrase in quotes on the whole page and how could Melich not notice that since people put things in quotes to show that those words are important. He also asked If Melich didn't wonder why KC didn't feel "at home" at home. Of course, she never said she didn't. She said TonE's was one of the few places she felt "at home." Her parents' home could also be one of those few places. Anyway, then Baez continued by harping about quotes Yuri used in his report. Asking why he used them--wasn't it to show that those words were important? Wasn't it to draw attention to those specific words" Yuri said No. It's because those were her words. I was quoting her. It was just another painful instance of Baez going on and on only to conclude by making absolutely no point at all.

Oh, the usual Baez "Perry Mason moment gone horribly, horribly wrong" or "I don't know where I am going with this but when I get there maybe I will have a point" strategy.

Has he spent the last 3 years, reading all of the statements for quotation marks then? No wonder he seems so ill prepared. He thought he was studying for english class not preparing for a trial. Now it is all crystal clear....NOT.

He gives me a "headache".

 

[Horace Finklestein]

Oh, the usual Baez "Perry Mason moment gone horribly, horribly wrong" or "I don't know where I am going with this but when I get there maybe I will have a point" strategy.

Has he spent the last 3 years, reading all of the statements for quotation marks then? No wonder he seems so ill prepared. He thought he was studying for english class not preparing for a trial. Now it is all crystal clear....NOT.

He gives me a "headache".

That's a good way to put it. He gets about 75% of the way to making a point, but then relies on other people to fill in the blanks and it just falls flat.

 

[LolaMoon08]

This is what I don't get about the whole "fantasy world." If Casey was seriously living in this world, she would have never admitted to her lies... she is supposed to believe her own lies, right? That is what I have gotten out of the defense's theory? Also, if she really lived in this world, it wouldn't change. She wouldn't feel she needed to add on to the story or subtract to the story.

I would also like to know when Casey admitted to this "accident?" It sounds just like another one of her elaborate lies to me.

 

[Donjeta]

JB's most pointless point IMO was asking YM what he'd have done if Casey had said not to sit on Zanny. She didn't say so and apparently never has. I suppose he was about to say that due to her rotten childhood and weird bereavement she might believe that Zanny is real and see her where she isn't but if she believes Zanny is real and took off with Caylee to keep her away from Casey why would Zanny be sitting in the conference room with YM and the other officers and why would Casey say "don't sit on her" as if protecting her? Shouldn't she have said, "Zanny is sitting there, arrest her"?

 

[countzero]

If what the sealed video on Dec 11, 08 says of ICA, that was the only day she grieved ... for herself. Which is what would be normal and acceptable behavior when one finds their loved one has passed. ICA hyperventilated, cried, was hysterical and asked for meds from what I remember.

So, ICA did in fact and very specifically know at that time Caylee had passed. And I believe HHJP could have been referring to this when he made his statement to JB the other day. I love the way HHJP gives gentle hints to JB. Is JB smart enough to catch them. Nope.

 

[Meemom]

I think HHJP was once again trying to hint to JB (in a backswards kinda way...) that he was getting ready to open the door to something the DT did not want in- the jail tape of ICA when Caylee was found....hence the "grief usually starts after a body is found" remark. If the DT is gonna try the ugly coping carpola, that ICA partied knowing Caylee died on the 16th of June, the state should be able to show the tape from Dec. Why would she react in a "grieving" manner then if she's known all along that Caylee was dead?

Another strategy JB hasn't taken the time to think through. JMO

 

[Meemom]

Jinx!

 

[countzero]

Oh my, three minds thinking alike .... wow .... are we good or what :rocker:

 

[countzero]

Ya know, after thinking while listening to GA/ICA's jail interview now, AF and CM might have re-thought about proffering this new "expert". JB is definitely a loose cannon, but CM isn't. And CM knew exactly what HHJP and JA were saying. I wouldn't be surprised if at some point between now and tomorrow, this woman gets removed from the DTs witness list.

Won't go out on that limb JB is on, but they also might be rethinking a lot more too on how they are going to proceed. They are way pass that six foot foot they have already dug themselves into.

 

[HRCODEPINK]

How is he going to go with this and cry junk science?

 

[ZsaZsa]

This whole topic reminds me of that old Wendy's ad - the one with the old lady who said "Where's the Grief?"
:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[tlcya]

wonder what the small fee is and how exactly mr pleading poor mouth is gonna find it in his budget? He just asked AGAIN for more money, supposedly for investigation. Where is the money gonna come from for this "expert"?

(Quotes very intentional)

 

[Ransom]

Not happening. She won't be testifying in CIC or guilt phase. IMO

 

[sleutherontheside]

Officials hear testimony on $5M payout

http://staugustine.com/stories/040707/state_4518555.shtml

"A child's death may be the greatest of all losses," said Sally Karioth, a certified traumatologist and grief counselor who teaches at the College of Nursing at Florida State University, "The myth that time heals all wounds is exactly that."

 

[Amd05m]

Dr. Sally Karioth is an esteemed professor at Florida State University. I completely dislike Casey Anthony, Jose Baez and the entire defense team, but I will say that they are getting an absolute gem of an expert witness in Dr. Karioth. She is intelligent beyond belief, successful, capable and one of the most caring, endearing people you will ever meet. I took her "Individual, Death and the Family" course about two years ago in my senior year. It was, without a doubt, the most interesting, educational and satisfying class of my entire college career. It was honestly life-changing. Daily I refer to advice or things taken or learned in Karioth's class. She's not some unqualified clown, and she certainly is not an "overpaid public speaker" as someone so kindly commented. She is an amazingly accomplished, powerful, UNEQUIVOCALLY wonderful woman, and I can only hope to become half the person she is one day. I urge any of you who may be upset with the case (as everyone is) or Mr. Baez to not direct your anger or judgements toward this woman who deserves nothing but respect and praise. I certainly hope whatever testimony she may give is not overly helpful to the case of the defense, but there is no doubt in my mind that whatever she says on the stand will be smart, honest, factual and eloquent. No fluff or paying off this "expert witness". Trust me, she doesn't need the money or recognition- I believe she is quite comfortable in both respects. Sorry to rant, I'm sure there's an army of people who would join me in support of Dr. Karioth, but I simply could not sit back while the anger, or oblivion (leading to ignorance), of some, in any way tarnished the name of a truly incredible person!

 

[Gracenote]

Dr. Sally Karioth is an esteemed professor at Florida State University. I completely dislike Casey Anthony, Jose Baez and the entire defense team, but I will say that they are getting an absolute gem of an expert witness in Dr. Karioth. She is intelligent beyond belief, successful, capable and one of the most caring, endearing people you will ever meet. I took her "Individual, Death and the Family" course about two years ago in my senior year. It was, without a doubt, the most interesting, educational and satisfying class of my entire college career. It was honestly life-changing. Daily I refer to advice or things taken or learned in Karioth's class. She's not some unqualified clown, and she certainly is not an "overpaid public speaker" as someone so kindly commented. She is an amazingly accomplished, powerful, UNEQUIVOCALLY wonderful woman, and I can only hope to become half the person she is one day. I urge any of you who may be upset with the case (as everyone is) or Mr. Baez to not direct your anger or judgements toward this woman who deserves nothing but respect and praise. I certainly hope whatever testimony she may give is not overly helpful to the case of the defense, but there is no doubt in my mind that whatever she says on the stand will be smart, honest, factual and eloquent. No fluff or paying off this "expert witness". Trust me, she doesn't need the money or recognition- I believe she is quite comfortable in both respects. Sorry to rant, I'm sure there's an army of people who would join me in support of Dr. Karioth, but I simply could not sit back while the anger, or oblivion (leading to ignorance), of some, in any way tarnished the name of a truly incredible person!

I am glad she has your respect. I am cringing at her lack of knowledge though, not even knowing what a peer reviewed journal is? I guess it is difficult to get someone who would say Casey was just grieving in an unusual way. As a SOC/SWK Master, I have some knowledge of the topic, and the behavior she displayed was not grief or trauma I have ever experienced or studied. (in a peer reviewed journal) But everyone is different I guess.